Chicago vs St. Louis. Which city is more Catholic?

[mamacita]

I wish I lived in Chicogo. Based on what a previous poster said about the community there. I am frustated with St. Louis and I have lived there for 31 years (all my life).

St. Louis has a lot of Catholics in the overall Metro area and a lot of conservative Catholics in certain neighborhoods. It also has many bueatiful churches. But no sense of community. Especially for young people. There are so few young adult type activities in St. Louis. There are only like two parishes with singles groups and they are located in very affluent suburbs. If you attend Mass or any devotion (Rosary, Perpetual Help Devotions) at any typical St.Louis parish almost everyone there will be over 60.

St. Louis is becoming more diveded along racial, ethnic, and also religious lines. So many of the churches in the city and certain parts of the suburbs are closing. If I tell people the Church in St. Louis is falling apart, I am told no-it is just a shift in demographics. But it is more than that. One new parish has opened in a growing part of St. Charles county but like ten or more other churches have closed. 10 to 1 is not good odds. No efforts at evangelation are being made in St. Louis. And we wonder why churches close! Becuase Catholics do not evangelize.

All this adds up to the fact that I can count on one hand the number of practicing Catholics under 50 I know in St. Louis. They are not here. There is no social network to meet other Catholics. I know that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church but I tend to think they are prevailing to destroy the Church in St. Louis.

**
I am not sure where in STL you live, but where we are we know tons and I mean tons of practicing Catholics in their late 20’s early 30’s and that’s all we hang around mainly is the devout Catholics. Also, our parish does evangelizing, they do door to door encounters on Saturday mornings once or twice a month, w/ our associate pastor. It’s all about where in STL that you live, people move further out from the city because it’s not exactly the ideal place to raise a family, especially if you want a yard that can actually hold a swing set in it. So if you venture out you will find that there are many good, Conservative Catholics in STL, just not where you are looking. **

 

[kwitz]

I’ve only visited Chicago a couple of times (and I know St. Louis has serious Chicago Envy )

How can we have Chicago envy when we have the Cardinals (& how can you get more Catholic than a baseball team named after church leaders!!) and they have the Cubs.

(& OK, I know the Cubs are in first right now, but it’s not September yet)

Kris

 

[chatterbox]

**
I am not sure where in STL you live, but where we are we know tons and I mean tons of practicing Catholics in their late 20’s early 30’s and that’s all we hang around mainly is the devout Catholics. Also, our parish does evangelizing, they do door to door encounters on Saturday mornings once or twice a month, w/ our associate pastor. It’s all about where in STL that you live, people move further out from the city because it’s not exactly the ideal place to raise a family, especially if you want a yard that can actually hold a swing set in it. So if you venture out you will find that there are many good, Conservative Catholics in STL, just not where you are looking. **

Hello Mamacita. I guess my post sounded really negative. I have an idea from what you said that you live pretty far out in a suburban area. I live in southwest St.Louis and it is a good area-it is not exactly inner city and our yeard is small but I had a swing set at one time when I was little. It is not a bad place to raise a family but it is more elderly people. I know some of the most wonderful people at my parish church but they are older ladies in thier 60’s and 70’s mostly-wonderful devout people but I do get lonely for friends my own age.
I know there are Catholics in St. Louis but they seem to only live in certain little pockets in the area ar away from where I live or can even venture without transportation.
My sister lives in one of the largest parishes in St. Charles County and I know it is thriving but frankly I have been to Mass there and I am scared to death of the place. They all seem to perfect-the congregation- and I feel like I could never fit in there. I have a feeling they are looking down on me. That is the feeling I get with younger Catholics in general-that it is an exclusive club. I think you have to be rich, accomplished, and fashionable (by thier standards) to be allowed in the club. I don’t know if this is real or in my head. Maybe it is both.
Thanks for responding.

 

[JimmyJeff]

I live in St. Louis and I"m not Catholic. I can tell you first hand that it is a very Catholic city, although probably not as much as it was 30-40 years ago. It’s a fairly conservative city but honestly, I have so many Catholic friends/acquintances and many of them are what I think of as cultural Catholics who love the Church and Traditions, send their kids to PSR or Catholic school but pretty much every one of them is on the pill or their husbands have had a vasectomy and they all dislike Archbishop Burke a great deal.

I was actually shocked one day when one of my friends who I always refer to as “very Catholic” didn’t know what transubstantiation was. When our “ex-Catholic” friend explained it to her, she said, “Oh, *that, I’ve never believed that.” but she would never, ever go to any other Church and loves being Catholic. When I asked another friend who sends her kids to the local parish school about doing RCIA she replied, “why on earth would anyone WANT to BECOME Catholic if they weren’t born into it?”

Of course, I can’t speak for every Catholic in St. Louis but I have three kids who play sports for the local parish and I “hear” things. As a non-Catholic I find many of them to behave more like the belong to the “in crowd” than an actual religion.

ps. If it sounds like I’m bashing, I’m not trying to. I’'m just giving you an outsiders opinion and letting you know that it’s a very traditional Catholic culture but necessarily very Orthodox in the Catholic Answers sense.

 

[agapewolf]

Chatterbox,

You cannot blame the church on you not having transportation. That is a societal/choice of location/your choice to not get a license issue. You also can’t blame urban sprawl on the Church. It has nothing to do with how Catholic our town is.

I live in St. Charles only because the parish that I got hired in is located here. I would prefer to live more central, but no parishes in the central area hire full time music directors. I have to make a living.

I agree there are a lot of cultural catholics in St. Louis, as there are anyway. I’ll bet the percentage of practicing/orthodox catholics to the population is a lot higher than most cities though.

 

[chatterbox]

No, I can’t blame the Church but I am trapped. I don’t think I can ever learn to drive. I want to but I can’t. I am scared. Change scares me.

Urban sprawl is not the fualt of the church-they did not cuase it- but it destroyed the Church.

I don’t feel accepted in the Church and that is not the pope’s fault or Archbishop Burke’s fault (he is good) but it is something I need to figure out and a lot of times I think I would be happier living someplace else.

I am not knocking you for living in St. Charles. I know there are jobs out there now and reasons to live out there now-I am just scared of it out there.

I don’t mean to sound mean or blame anyone-you are a nice person. I am just frustrated with St. Louis and it’s lack of opportunities and venting.

 

[Clonereject1138]

Hi everyone. I used to post on CA before but it’s been awhile and I forgot my old s/n. But now i’m back asking the question: Between Chicago & St. Louis, which city is more Catholic? And by Catholic I mean conservative Catholic, not Catholic in name only (like Boston) I always hear that both cities are very Catholic, but I also hear that they’re very liberal. Are these good cities to raise a Catholic family?

Factor in the suburbs too.

St. Louis was the one that was wiped out by the Hurricane, right? Cuz that one is being re-populated by hard working immigrants. So, the wiped out city. Not sure about St Louis though.

 

[mamacita]

I vote St. Louis-as another poster mentioned, we were referred to as “Rome of the west”. Plus, now, we have Archbishop Raymond Burke: Need I say more.

And, I guess if you’re in the city, the Church is shrinking, but I’m one of those horrible “white flighters” who moved to St. Charles County, and Catholicisim IS booming out here. Like AgapeWolf mentioned, youth ministry is very vibrant, and my parish (Immaculate Conception) has The Dead Theologians Society for h.s. and college kids (I only wished they’d open it up for all ages!). St. Louis also has Theology on Tap, and St. Monica’s parish (yes, out in West County-but what are you gonna do, that’s where the people have gone) has a young adult coffee house. When I was growing up, I didn’t think the Church had anything “extracurricular” (i.e., outside of Mass) like Protestant denoms did, but now I know I just didn’t know where and how to look for it. Yeah, you might have to drive a bit if you live in the City, but we have a peculiar problem here w/ driving anyway-everyone drives, our public transportation system is awful, and outside of the City, everything is designed for cars, so it’s nearly impossible to walk anywhere (one of things I don’t like about being way out here, but my parish is the main thing keeping me from wanting to move).

I’ve only visited Chicago a couple of times (and I know St. Louis has serious Chicago Envy ), and I don’t know much about Cardinal George (he’s Archbp of Chicago, now, right?), but w/ being blessed w/ Raymond Burke and being in a “red state” (even though the City itself is blue, the outer suberbs are still red), I’d have to say, even if the numbers are smaller, St. Louis is probably more orthodox. JMO

In Christ,

Ellen

**
I agree w/ you!! HEY by the way, I used to be in your parish about 3 years ago!! Were you at ICD when Fr. Larry came to do the mission??**

 

[mamacita]

I am in StL. I never lived anywhere else but I feel so isolated here. There are no groups for young adults here in South St. Louis. They are all out in the suburbs. I can go to Mass without a driver’s license and therefore be practicing Catholic but I do not know any yoiung Catholics my own age and I feel sort of friendless in the CHurch. I don’t know how to meet other Catholics my age-my neighborhood is mostly elderly people and I have no transportation.

That’s the problem—most of your neighborhood is elderly and so is probably your parish. I am not saying that this is necessarily the case but STL is voted one of the most crime related cities in the USA, then you wonder why so many large families/young families/young adults choose not to stay in the actual city (some still live there, just not many) ?? That is one reason in my opinion that people have moved west. Also, the price of housing years ago in ST. Charles county was very reasonable (not as cheap anymore, but still reasonable w/ compared to other areas in STL like Chesterfield, Clayton, Ladue) so when you have a single income family w/ kids moving out of the city to have a bigger house and safer neighborhood w/ an actual backyard is the way to go. So that is why you have so many elderly where you are because they have no reason to move out. My friend lives in South St. Louis off of Gravois and Mackenzie, she has the same complaint, elderly people on both sides of her and she is 29 w/ 3 little kids. Her husband is the reason they haven’t moved to St. Chuck. Another thing is that St. Charles county whenever there is an election always has more conservative voters than in the city. (such was how it went with Amend. 2 last fall)

 

[mamacita]

Hello Mamacita. I guess my post sounded really negative. I have an idea from what you said that you live pretty far out in a suburban area. I live in southwest St.Louis and it is a good area-it is not exactly inner city and our yeard is small but I had a swing set at one time when I was little. It is not a bad place to raise a family but it is more elderly people. I know some of the most wonderful people at my parish church but they are older ladies in thier 60’s and 70’s mostly-wonderful devout people but I do get lonely for friends my own age.
I know there are Catholics in St. Louis but they seem to only live in certain little pockets in the area ar away from where I live or can even venture without transportation.
My sister lives in one of the largest parishes in St. Charles County and I know it is thriving but frankly I have been to Mass there and I am scared to death of the place. They all seem to perfect-the congregation- and I feel like I could never fit in there. I have a feeling they are looking down on me. That is the feeling I get with younger Catholics in general-that it is an exclusive club. I think you have to be rich, accomplished, and fashionable (by thier standards) to be allowed in the club. I don’t know if this is real or in my head. Maybe it is both.
Thanks for responding.

**Is it St. Joe’s in Cottleville? That’s where my husband and I got married, beautiful church!!! I am so sorry you feel the way that you do. I have friends in that area where you live but they aren’t single. They are all married w/ kids. If you ever want to know of more activities or could use a ride to something, such as evening of reflection or something my friends would probably be glad to take you with them:thumbsup: **

 

[Pray4me2]

I’ve lived in St. Louis for 7 years. It is a wonderful place to raise a family ( I have 5 kids ). The parishes are variable and like most have a large number of “cafeteria Catholics” However we have, in my book, the best archbishop, RAYMOND BURKE, a city could ask for. He is a humble devoted man who is willing to risk bad press, not being like, etc. in order to protect his flock. I would be reluctant to move elsewhere for many reasons but losing him as my bishop is one of the big reasons. St. Louis also has a very large active Archdiocesean pro-life ministry working in all facets of pro-life activity.

 

[chicago]

St. Louis was the one that was wiped out by the Hurricane, right? Cuz that one is being re-populated by hard working immigrants. So, the wiped out city. Not sure about St Louis though.

I think you are thinking of New Orleans.

 

[John_Higgins]

Okay, I guess most of you mean “Which of these two cities is MY kind of Catholic?”

Chicago, the city and the archdiocese, has had a liberal reputation for a long while. Our only really conservative archbishop in recent memory, John Cardinal Cody, started as an auxiliary in St. Louis.

I have great affection for the Gateway City. I was married there. (Also the Cubs v. Cardinals thing doesn’t matter to me 'cause I’m a Sox fax). The church I was married in is run by the Jesuits on St. Louis University’s campus. And, as anyone who reads my posts could tell you, I’m an unabashed, unapologetic fan of the Jesuits.

I do live in Chicagoland, and I call myself a Chicagoan (although Tim will give me grief 'cause my zip code doesnt start with 606!). If I had to pick which archdiocese is more MY kind of Catholic, it would have been a tie with Cardinal Rigali at the helm in St. Louis, but now it’s Chicao far and away.

John

PS: St. Louis, King of France, pray for us. (Today is his feast day.)

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I would have to echo chicago’s earlier statements and sentiments. You have a choice of the Archdiocese of Chicago, the Diocese of Joliet (Cook, Kane, DuPage, Grundy, Will), AND the Diocese of Rockford (includes parts of Kane, Kendall, DuPage, McHenry, DeKalb, all the way to the Wisconsin, Indiana and Iowa borders). As far as orthodoxy, it’s there if you want it, including for those of a Latin persuasion, the Institute of Christ the King oratories and St. John Cantius in the City.

I also think we have better transportation here in Northern Illinois. It was truly a gem when this mayor’s father ran the City, but it’s better than St. Louis.

 

[chicago]

Chicago, the city and the archdiocese, has had a liberal reputation for a long while. Our only really conservative archbishop in recent memory, John Cardinal Cody, started as an auxiliary in St. Louis.

And even he was considered liberal in his positions on racial justice.

 

[chicago]

I would have to echo chicago’s earlier statements and sentiments. You have a choice of the Archdiocese of Chicago, the Diocese of Joliet (Cook, Kane, DuPage, Grundy, Will), AND the Diocese of Rockford (includes parts of Kane, Kendall, DuPage, McHenry, DeKalb, all the way to the Wisconsin, Indiana and Iowa borders).

One ought to throw in the Diocese of Gary in NW Indiana (just across the Chicago border). If one goes a little further north into Wisconsin - say Kenosha or Racine, then they are in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. All these regions are essentially part of the Chicago Metropolitan Area, or as we sometimes call it “Chicagoland”.

As far as orthodoxy, it’s there if you want it…

I think that is the key. You’re going to find a wide variety and swath of stuff WHEREVER you go, but ESPECIALLY in Chicago. It isn’t one size fits all here, but many things for many people - a little bit of everything. You have to find what you’re looking for and make your way with it, while tolerating other expressions that might not float your particular boat which exist within the whole. Oh, that’s right (speaking of boats) we have a mighty big lake, also, don’t we? (And many smaller ones, too! Rivers even.)

 

[IrishAm]

I was raised in St. Louis, raised my children in the Chicago area (as well as a few years in St. Louis) and have to vote for St. Louis on this one. The Catholic school system in St. Louis is so deeply engrained in the social fabric of the community that the church has an impact far beyond numbers or faith tradition.

This is both good and bad, as anyone who has ever lived there can testify. “Where did you go to high school?” can become a code phrase for elitism and racism as much as shared experience and community.

Both seriously Catholic communities; but I have to give the edge to my hometown.

 

[JHousley]

Well for it’s size, it sounds like St. Louis wins. But then again, Chicagoland is much bigger so it probably depends on the location. If I did choose Chicagoland it would most likely be out in the suburbs (DuPage, Will, Lake) But is Catholicism still as strong out there as it is in the city? I mean i’d rather live out in the suburbs because it’s more conservative, but at the same time it seems like the Catholic community isn’t as strong as it is in the city. I’m mostly going by the lack of Catholic schools. So is the Catholic community out in the suburbs as strong as it is in the city?

And about St. Louis. Sounds like a nice place, but why is there little growth (besides St. Charles County)? It’s just that when I see a place booming, I assume it’s a nice place to live. But St. Louis seems like it’s on a decline. Is the city & metro area one of those decaying Midwest cities?

I’m just wondering. We’re not planning on moving any time soon, but we plan to move sometime in the near future. I just wanted to get a headstart.

 

[IrishAm]

Chicago suburbs? I’m particularly fond of Naperville, to where I have moved three times (1978, 1982, 1994) and my beloved SS. Peter and Paul parish. Have a cemetery plot there, in fact, alhough I’m not particular about where they lay me to my final rest.

 

[chicago]

If I did choose Chicagoland it would most likely be out in the suburbs (DuPage, Will, Lake) But is Catholicism still as strong out there as it is in the city? I mean i’d rather live out in the suburbs because it’s more conservative, but at the same time it seems like the Catholic community isn’t as strong as it is in the city. I’m mostly going by the lack of Catholic schools. So is the Catholic community out in the suburbs as strong as it is in the city?

One must appreciate the development of the area to understand the schooling system. In the city, we have many old parishes which were founded by immigrant communities originally. And with the many families that moved in came some religious order which would found and operate a parish school. Some of these schools are still running, many have closed . In most cases, it is a financial thing combined with enrollment levels. You can find good Catholic grade schools in the city yet, but you need to be able to afford them, typically.

There are some Catholic grade schools, also, in the older suburban communities, just like in the city. But when the suburbs grew in the post WWII boom and new parishes were founded, there was often no money or religious group there to construct a school along with it. The focus was on parish ministry which could be afforded. In many ways this helped these parishes to devolop with greater services and community, actually, as they did not have the finanical “drain” of a school to support. As the sardonic saying sometimes goes around here, “Close your school and you can actually have a parish.”

Further, since the suburban areas typically provided an excellent public school education, most felt no practical need to establish Catholic schools as competitors. “Why pay for something that you can get for free?” is the idea. But, again, the way in which this is usually compensated for in suburban parishes absent schools is by huge Religious Ed. (CCD) programs to complement the public school.

Concerning the Catholic high schools, they are more spread out across the area and, I would say, that the ones in the suburbs (or on the fringes of city/suburb) have better survived by and large just because the parents in those areas can more easily afford the ever growing tuitions.

Really, though, I wouldn’t judge a parish’s vibrancy these days based upon the existance of non existance of schools. Nor is it easy to compare community strength between suburbs and city, considering that the essential environment often tends to be different. Part of that is simply a matter of urban walkability, transportation, and business streets versus the suburban mall and business complex with a big parking lot spread apart. The way in which a parish expresses strength of community is more related to particular environments of urbanity, suburbanity, and rural life at play more than anything reflective upon the parish life, itself.

Still, if what you are looking for is a parish environment heavaily based around parochial school, then it can be found. And, really, the city isn’t anything to fear in this regard. Everyone talks about it being so dang “liberal”, but really what does that mean in practice that should create worry? It’s an environment of many good people and families trying to get by and make it, just like the people in the suburbs. And even those who live life beyond “606” get their water from Lake Michigan and enter the city for events. Of course, there are enclaves and people of more conservative bent within the city, too. Save for some political candidates elected, ultimately, what is all that different?