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chicago
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“Decaying Midwest Cities” are mostly a thing of the past. That was the case in the 70s and early 80s, but now most have rebounded. Unless we were talking about Detroit, which was left for lost long ago.
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Illini
Guest
It’s a close call. I’ve lived in both cities (well, Du Page anyway). My view is: both cities have long rich histories of ethnic Catholic areas, Catholic education, and strong archbishops. Perhaps Chicago had it a little more because of greater immigration.
-Illini
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More recently Chicago has been more liberal, with more "independent" clergy (to put it politely) who have publicly challenged the archbishop and have been outspoken in stressing the "social justice" to the diminshment of the sacred. However, Cardinal George has been reining them in while quietly building a new culture.
I don't think St. Louis has had that that culture quite as strongly as Chicago. And it has had more time to rebuild, with Cardinal Rigali and now Archbishop Burke. However, Chicago is closing the gap fast.
Just my two cents.
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John_Higgins
Guest
I agree with Tim (chicago). It isn’t necessarily good to judge the vibrancy of a parish based on whether or not it has a school. During the 160 years of my Chicago parish, we have had a boys and a girls high school and an elementary school. They closed the girls high school and relocated the boys school in the late 1950s. The elementary school had been closed, but had to reopen due to demand in the 1990s. It was the first new elementary school for years in the archdiocese.
But what makes our parish so vibrant is people who care to give time, talent, and treasure, and a clergy and lay leadership that keeps this wonderful parish serving the Lord, Chicago, Mississippi (I’ll link to a story about that) and Africa.
There are certainly more parishes like ours in the archdiocese and the collar dioceses.
John
But what makes our parish so vibrant is people who care to give time, talent, and treasure, and a clergy and lay leadership that keeps this wonderful parish serving the Lord, Chicago, Mississippi (I’ll link to a story about that) and Africa.
There are certainly more parishes like ours in the archdiocese and the collar dioceses.
John
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Sierrah
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Chatterbox,
I’m sorry, but I must disagree with you about the evangelization effort. Perhaps this is true in some age groups, but I work for the church, and I am very involved in youth ministry… and it is booming in St. louis. Just check out xlt south, or the lifeteen Mass at a few of the bigger parishes. Hundreds of young people are going to them.
I do agree that the young adult things seem to be lacking, however, I know of many many attempts at parishes to start stuff, only for no one to show up and it is dropped.
My parish has a great sense of community (I’m in St. Charles too). I think that the closing parishes are a result from there being one on every corner to begin with. I think the reason we are not filling them is the overall state of society in general as the church (and other churches) experience a decline in people’s perceived need for God. That’s an overall evangelization effort, not just the way that St. Louis is.
I have to agree with Chatterbox. As a native St. Louisian born and raised catholic I’ve seen a definate lack of evanglization in the church. I was raised by parents who were into evangelization themselves to a certain extent and they often had to attend services in other denomination due to the lack of a focused Catholic movement.Even for Catholics in St Louis mixing and mingling for singles or new unknow members in a parish seems difficult at best. In other words if you don’t have kids in the school you are kind of forgotten.
I know hundreds of Catholic under 50. Mostly in the teen to 30 range. Perhaps I can introduce you?
I absolutely love St. louis. It was once referred to as the Rome of the west.
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agapewolf
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The message immediately above me quoted me…some things I said above, and some I didn’t…it was all mixed together.
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Island_Oak
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Ahhh…how I enjoyed this post! Truer words were never written. We are living on the west coast in one of the loveliest settings one could hope to find. After a couple years here I still feel like I’m on an extended exotic vacation–but “home” is still Chicago. When we visit–it’s like we never left and there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t miss it–the amazing friends there, my beloved parish and the invigorating pulse that was always buzzing there!
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Sure
Guest
Both are good cities and similiar in their historical catholicity. Here are some good things to consider:
In both places, you will find some very orthodox Catholic parishes and some very liberal parishes. No matter which you choose it will be necessary to seek out the orthodox parish with a good school (some orthodox parishes don’t have schools or have weak schools).
In both cities you will probably want to look in the suburbs. That is where you will find most of the good parishes and schools.
Housing in St. Louis is significantly cheaper. You can find a very nice family home in the suburbs for 200K. Chicago will be much much more.
Chicago has a much stronger economy and job market. Economic slowdowns tend to hit smaller cities like St. Louis very hard. Housing appreciation will also be better in Chicago, but you will pay a lot more to get in.
Archbishop Burke is probably one of the greatest bishops in the US. But, it is HIGHLY unlikely that he will remain in St. Louis. He will end up as a cardinal in a large US archdiocese (St. Louis is only 555K Catholics and is smaller than many dioceses throughout the US). On the good side, whoever replaces Archbishop Burke will be very good, I’m sure.
In both places, you will find some very orthodox Catholic parishes and some very liberal parishes. No matter which you choose it will be necessary to seek out the orthodox parish with a good school (some orthodox parishes don’t have schools or have weak schools).
In both cities you will probably want to look in the suburbs. That is where you will find most of the good parishes and schools.
Housing in St. Louis is significantly cheaper. You can find a very nice family home in the suburbs for 200K. Chicago will be much much more.
Chicago has a much stronger economy and job market. Economic slowdowns tend to hit smaller cities like St. Louis very hard. Housing appreciation will also be better in Chicago, but you will pay a lot more to get in.
Archbishop Burke is probably one of the greatest bishops in the US. But, it is HIGHLY unlikely that he will remain in St. Louis. He will end up as a cardinal in a large US archdiocese (St. Louis is only 555K Catholics and is smaller than many dioceses throughout the US). On the good side, whoever replaces Archbishop Burke will be very good, I’m sure.
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chicago
Guest
I have to disagree with this. In actuality, it is often the suburban parishes which have the most liberal pastors. They are frequently, also, (unless they are old suburbs with old parishes) sort of megaparishes with huge registrations and the need to minister to large populations at Mass using lots of lay persons in more modernistic buildings. Often, it is the older, inner city parishes which have held the line and retain some semblance of more traditional Church practice. And because no one had the money or interest to wreckovate many of them when the city was in decline during the 60s-80s.
As far as schools, it is generally recognized that the suburbs have better public schools, overall, though there are good public schools in the city, also. As concerns Catholic schools there are still quite a few excellent ones in the city, itself and you don’t necessarily have to attend the local parish school if there is another you prefer.
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ack
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This is true for many parishes, and not just in Chicago! I’ve always been fond of the old city parishes…I even moved into the city just to be near one…
…however, I’ve also come across my share of liberal, liturgical abuse-laden city parishes. Many city parishes are in declining neighborhoods where nobody cares anymore, and the priest is free to do whatever wacky things he feels like.
…however, I’ve also come across my share of liberal, liturgical abuse-laden city parishes. Many city parishes are in declining neighborhoods where nobody cares anymore, and the priest is free to do whatever wacky things he feels like.
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chicago
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In Chicago there was major parish rationing about 16 years ago. And there has been continued mergers from time to time with both parishes and schools. Consequently, it is not likely to find such situations anymore.
Given, this is essentially how the parish which John Higgins attends (Old St. Pat’s) got revived to be a major player in the city. Which is more likely the case at this point. Even if a parish isn’t very vibrant, the priest who enters does something worthwhile with it (be it liberal or conservative leaning - St. John Cansuis could be said to have been revived in the other extreme by the same method, for example) and sees it built back up. Similarly, St. Mary of the Angels with Opus Dei after Cardinal Berndardin handed it over to their stewardship. Or Holy Family on Roosevelt under the leadership of Fr. Lane. Though, actually, what I typically had found in the time when “nobody cared” is that these were the vestige holdouts where a more traditional priest and old community thrived rather than the other way around. And since they were not on the radar screen when more progressivist movements were carrying the day they got preserved amidst the decay.
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John_Higgins
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First, St. Louis is smaller than several dioceses, but larger than many archdioceses, Baltimore, for example. History has as much to do with what is or isn’t an archdiocese. Galveston-Houston wasn’t made an archdiocese until it had over 1,000,000 Catholics.
Don’t downplay St. Louis as a see. Until quite recently it was a cardinalatial see. My theory: Archbishop May didn’t get the red had cause the emeritus, Cardinal Carberry, was still alive. His Eminence did not die until 1998, several years after Abp. Rigali had taken over. By then His Holiness had another spot in mind for his good friend Abp. Rigali. And it seems that cardinals never transfer from one see to another. Although they’d never admit it, the Vatican seems to like to fill a see with a bishop of one of the city’s major ethnic groups. Hence, Italian Rigali replaces Italian Bevilacqua.
So it could be that Archbishop Burke gets the red hat in St. Louis. Although I’d rather have seen Cardinal Rigali get it and stay in St. Louis, I think Archbishop Burke gets the red hat in St. Louis or nowhere.
Just my humble, long winded opinion.
John
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ALLGIRLS
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Oh Yeah! That was awesome! Brendan Case did a mission prior to that that was great too. I know Catholics aren’t supposed to get into their priests so much (like Evangelical Protestants churches revolve around the pastors personality), but after Fr. Larry was here, I was really wanting to move to Erie and join his parish. He was the start of my dh’s journey to finally joining the Church (he entered this past Easter). Where do you go now?
Chatterbox: you mentioned you’re in southwest St. Louis. What church are you going to? St. Joan of Arc is pretty active, and used to have a pretty young congregation (lots of families w/ children, anyway), and I thought Epiphany was also. My husband lived in that area b/f we were married (he actually grew up near Rolla, MO, moved to St. Louis after college), and we were supposed to move back after my dd finished elementary school, but lots of stuff happened, and we ended up staying here in the house my grandma and I had built in '94. I really like the City, I wish I’d have never moved (grandma and I wanted a house, and new ones out here were incredibly affordable then, the opposite is now true). But now we can’t afford a house down there that would be big enough for us (got 4 kids now, and, no we aren’t “done” yet, God willing), and I do love ICD, but I also hate the sprawl and lack of sidewalks and how it’s gotten so incredibly upscale that we’re pretty much stuck in our house, even though it’s gotten too impratical (split foyer-very little storage and not enough livable space) for our family at this point.
Ok, I totally derailed this thread, give me a little attention and off I go, sorry!
.In Christ,
Ellen
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airforcemom
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Great idea to start checking for a Catholic city before moving. Coming for SE Louisiana I was use to having lots of Catholics around me and now in AR we are considered the outsiders. We are redoing our flooded home but know that we will not stay there but for 3-5 years before looking for another place to move to. I like AR but would have to find another location hopefully in area where we can find more Catholic friends. We are also considering MS - that could put us in the middle of our 3 children (GA, AR & LA) and my parents in MS but I know I’ll have the same problem finding a Catholic area. I would consider Ave Maria FL but I can’t afford it and I don’t want to take the risk of another hurricane and flooding - getting too old for it. Good luck in your search - I’ve enjoyed reading about the 2 areas - wish one was more south.
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chatterbox
Guest
I don’t live in St. Joan of Arc but I go to Mass there many Sundays. It is nieghboring parish. Don’t know how to meet people there. I don’t know anyone and have been attending Mass there many Sundays for years. Are there really young people there? There are some at Mass but I don’t think they gather socially and I can’t meet them at Mass for obvouis reasons of it is disrespectful to talk during Mass. I would love to meet people. Actually, I am not a registered member of that parish-I am member of another parish I hardly attend but I want to remain member. Can you only belong to one parish?Oh Yeah! That was awesome! Brendan Case did a mission prior to that that was great too. I know Catholics aren’t supposed to get into their priests so much (like Evangelical Protestants churches revolve around the pastors personality), but after Fr. Larry was here, I was really wanting to move to Erie and join his parish. He was the start of my dh’s journey to finally joining the Church (he entered this past Easter). Where do you go now?
Chatterbox: you mentioned you’re in southwest St. Louis. What church are you going to? St. Joan of Arc is pretty active, and used to have a pretty young congregation (lots of families w/ children, anyway), and I thought Epiphany was also. My husband lived in that area b/f we were married (he actually grew up near Rolla, MO, moved to St. Louis after college), and we were supposed to move back after my dd finished elementary school, but lots of stuff happened, and we ended up staying here in the house my grandma and I had built in '94. I really like the City, I wish I’d have never moved (grandma and I wanted a house, and new ones out here were incredibly affordable then, the opposite is now true). But now we can’t afford a house down there that would be big enough for us (got 4 kids now, and, no we aren’t “done” yet, God willing), and I do love ICD, but I also hate the sprawl and lack of sidewalks and how it’s gotten so incredibly upscale that we’re pretty much stuck in our house, even though it’s gotten too impratical (split foyer-very little storage and not enough livable space) for our family at this point.
Ok, I totally derailed this thread, give me a little attention and off I go, sorry!
In Christ,
Ellen
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mamacita
Guest
I don’t really know if you can be a parishioner at more than one parish
What parish are you currently a parishioner in?
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chicago
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I know people who are registered at a half dozen differnet places. I wouldn’t worry about that aspect much.I don’t really know if you can be a parishioner at more than one parish
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agapewolf
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Except that you’ll get 6 different sets of envelopes.
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chicago
Guest
That could prove fun. Just grab an envelope from anywhere every week and toss it into a basket someplace, even if the two are mismatched.Except that you’ll get 6 different sets of envelopes.
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Norseman82
Guest
The other thing about finding a good conservative parish is to try to find an old-line ethnic parish. I know Chicago has plenty of Polish parishes, and Poland has a reputation of being more conservative than the Vatican!
Additionally, please realize that if you are dealing with a parish run by diocesan priests, they have generally a 12-year limit, so you will get pastors transferrign in and out. What was once a “liberal” parish can turn “by the book” pretty quickly when a new pastor arrives. And in Chicago, if you follow the appointments that Cardinal George is making, he is quietly placing more “by the book” priests in key parishes (the most obvious example is the replacement of the pastor of the cathedral, but I won’t go into the politics behind it).
Otherwise, regarding Chicago, please realize that the housing bagains are out in the “exurbs” and that may entail a long commute depending on if you drive to another suburb to work or whether you take Metra into the city.
Additionally, if you are a firearms owner and want to retain one for home protection, Chicago and several suburbs have various restrictions, including banning handguns.
But hey, you can’t beat the ethnic variety here! And if you are into bicycling, Chicago is one of the more bike-friendly cities, plus a trip to the lakefront can be a mini-vacation in itself. There are a lot of museums to take the kids to as well.
My experience with St. Louis has been only passing through it a few times on the way to the Ozarks, so I can’t comment on it.
Additionally, please realize that if you are dealing with a parish run by diocesan priests, they have generally a 12-year limit, so you will get pastors transferrign in and out. What was once a “liberal” parish can turn “by the book” pretty quickly when a new pastor arrives. And in Chicago, if you follow the appointments that Cardinal George is making, he is quietly placing more “by the book” priests in key parishes (the most obvious example is the replacement of the pastor of the cathedral, but I won’t go into the politics behind it).
Otherwise, regarding Chicago, please realize that the housing bagains are out in the “exurbs” and that may entail a long commute depending on if you drive to another suburb to work or whether you take Metra into the city.
Additionally, if you are a firearms owner and want to retain one for home protection, Chicago and several suburbs have various restrictions, including banning handguns.
But hey, you can’t beat the ethnic variety here! And if you are into bicycling, Chicago is one of the more bike-friendly cities, plus a trip to the lakefront can be a mini-vacation in itself. There are a lot of museums to take the kids to as well.
My experience with St. Louis has been only passing through it a few times on the way to the Ozarks, so I can’t comment on it.
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