Child allergic to host

[BlessedBe]

What 7 substances could the child consume?

I can’t recall the whole list. I remember that he could have pork, lamb, rice and peas. I think the rest were fruits. But specific ones (and grapes not among them).

 

[THurifer2]

This is insane. How in the world would the parents know the child was allergic to wine? Grapes change chemical composition when fermented. The parents could have had an allergy test specific to wine (not grapes) I find it extremely hard to believe. I think the OP was stirring the pot.

 

[BlessedBe]

Blessed Be- That’s the thing- there is no scriptural reference. It comes from Sacred Tradition which, to us, is as important as scripture.

Hmm.

I’m going to be completely honest with you here. I think that’s very sad. If the Bible is the word of God, and that was in there, I could understand. But if this is just “tradition,” I don’t understand why tradition can’t be changed.

Again, I am not attacking Catholicism. It’s just sad to me to see a religion work so hard to gain and keep young people and then reject certain people due only to “tradition.” Especially since some traditions in the church have changed over the years, although perhaps there is a distinguishing line between “Sacred” tradition and “ordinary” tradition?

And okay, “reject” is the wrong word. It’s not like they excommunicated the boy. But you see what I mean.

 

[adrift]

I

Since Martini is not cooperating, perhaps someone else could help me out and post the scriptural reference, chapter and verse, from which the idea of having the host be of wheat only is derived. I am not intending to use this information to start another argument - after all, interpretation is such an objective thing, who am I to reject one interpretation or another - it is merely to satisfy my intellectual curiosity.

You wont find a recipe in the bible. I can’t help but think, since you taught in a Catholic school that you already know. I don’t mean that unkindly so please take no offense. The Eucharist was instituted at the Last Supper. It was the elements that Jesus used and said do this…The Church has no power to alter what Jesus commanded.
Jesus did not act in a vacuum. The Passover was not accidentally established. It was God’s plan from the start. If other matter was acceptable God would have provided it to the Jews. Jesus took bread and wine not any other substance. The question you ask is essentially the same question of why would God allow a child to have such a condition in the first place?
Someone else asked how did they know that there was an intolerance to wine. That is a good question. How did they?
Intolerance to the environment is a real trial that is very sad and dangerous to those it effects.

 

[THurifer2]

Hmm.

I’m going to be completely honest with you here. I think that’s very sad. If the Bible is the word of God, and that was in there, I could understand. But if this is just “tradition,” I don’t understand why tradition can’t be changed.

.

The above quote is why I think you are stretching the story of allergy a bit. Catholics hold tradition and scripture equally. You do realize the canonization of the bible comes from the same source as the tradition does the church.

WIth that in mind there are thousands if not millions of people who cannot recieve the Eucharist for a litany of reasons. SOme people don’t even have an esophogus…they are in the same boat as the child is. They will get the spiritual communion mentioned the countless times in this thread.

 

[Martini]

…I know some of you feel that your “opinion” on such matters is irrelevant because rules are rules. (I find that incredibly sad, but that’s for another thread.) Besides, even if you follow the rules, are you not even permitted to consider that they might be wrong? I don’t mean a direct challenge, or disobedience, but simply to entertain the very thought that some of these codes might be incorrect or misinterpreted? Is this kind of thinking truly consider a sin in the Catholic faith? If so, how is it that changes are ever made? (And don’t tell me they’re not, because they are!)…

:nope:

 

[SeekerJen]

This is insane. How in the world would the parents know the child was allergic to wine? Grapes change chemical composition when fermented. The parents could have had an allergy test specific to wine (not grapes) I find it extremely hard to believe. I think the OP was stirring the pot.

Most allergens are proteins, and proteins from the grapes would make it into the finished wine. The yeast used to ferment the grape sugars into ethanol will not digest the proteins and the alcohol is not distilled off, thus the allergens remain.

I wonder if the child in question was one of those unfortunate kids who reacted to nearly everything on a skin prick test and thus his parents weren’t taking any chances, even if they didn’t know for sure that ingestion would cause anaphylaxis. Having seen the reactions that some have to peanuts, eggs, and soy, I can understand their fear. I hope they have the kid retested, as some of the things he reacted to as a small child may not have the same effect now.

 

[adrift]

Hmm.

I’m going to be completely honest with you here. I think that’s very sad. If the Bible is the word of God, and that was in there, I could understand. But if this is just “tradition,” I don’t understand why tradition can’t be changed.

We don’t have the Bible alone mentality. Sacred Tradition is actually what the Bible was before it was written. Sacred Tradition is also the Word of God. Again I am Surprised that you don’t already know this.

 

[THurifer2]

Most allergens are proteins, and proteins from the grapes would make it into the finished wine. The yeast used to ferment the grape sugars into ethanol will not digest the proteins and the alcohol is not distilled off, thus the allergens remain.

I wonder if the child in question was one of those unfortunate kids who reacted to nearly everything on a skin prick test and thus his parents weren’t taking any chances, even if they didn’t know for sure that ingestion would cause anaphylaxis. Having seen the reactions that some have to peanuts, eggs, and soy, I can understand their fear. I hope they have the kid retested, as some of the things he reacted to as a small child may not have the same effect now.

I hope they have the kid carry and EPI pen or two with them and some prednisone and some diphenhydramine. Grapes have no protein bound allergens but do have phenol flavonoids wine wine has less than red.

 

[Martini]

Hmm.

I’m going to be completely honest with you here. I think that’s very sad. If the Bible is the word of God, and that was in there, I could understand. But if this is just “tradition,” I don’t understand why tradition can’t be changed.

Again, I am not attacking Catholicism. It’s just sad to me to see a religion work so hard to gain and keep young people and then reject certain people due only to “tradition.” Especially since some traditions in the church have changed over the years, although perhaps there is a distinguishing line between “Sacred” tradition and “ordinary” tradition?

What exactly would qualify as anti-Catholic bigotry and forum trolling? I would like to understand the parameters of both.

Anyone immersed in a Catholic environment (as you suggest you have been) would know that the Catholic/Orthodox belief is that Sacred Scripture is actually a subset of Sacred Tradition. That Sacred Tradition is not to be confused with man-made customs and disciplines – such as “Bible-onlyism.” While Sacred Tradition (including Sacred Scripture) can be more fully revealed, it can never be discounted or changed.

You have made comments that are flat-out wrong – you also seem to be tipping more and more of your hand with each posting – not that your intitial posting left any question to me…

 

[Martini]

I would suggest a change to the title of this thread:

Is: Child allergic to host

Should be: Catholics offended by relativism

 

[adrift]

Most allergens are proteins, and proteins from the grapes would make it into the finished wine. The yeast used to ferment the grape sugars into ethanol will not digest the proteins and the alcohol is not distilled off, thus the allergens remain.

I wonder if the child in question was one of those unfortunate kids who reacted to nearly everything on a skin prick test and thus his parents weren’t taking any chances, even if they didn’t know for sure that ingestion would cause anaphylaxis. Having seen the reactions that some have to peanuts, eggs, and soy, I can understand their fear. I hope they have the kid retested, as some of the things he reacted to as a small child may not have the same effect now.

What are allergies?
Allergies are the immune system’s incorrect response to a foreign substance. Exposure to what is normally a harmless substance, such as pollen, causes the immune system to react as if the substance is harmful. Substances that cause allergies are called allergens.

 

[SeekerJen]

I hope they have the kid carry and EPI pen or two with them and some prednisone and some diphenhydramine. Grapes have no protein bound allergens but do have phenol flavonoids wine wine has less than red.

Grapes have proteins in them, as do all plants. Why would you think they didn’t?

I absolutely agree that the kid should carry an EpiPen. Those things have saved many lives.

 

[Pong]

Martini- So far I think you’re the only one offended. I for one am just a bit saddened.

 

[SeekerJen]

Thanks Adrift, I’m an immunology graduate student and worked in an allergy/asthma research lab. I do know what an allergen is.

 

[BlessedBe]

What exactly would qualify as anti-Catholic bigotry and forum trolling? I would like to understand the parameters of both.

No problem. If I were anti-Catholic, I would have said something like, “You’re all stupid. Catholicism is stupid. You’re all completely wrong.” Instead, I’ve stated a situation and asked for a discussion around it. Yes, I have mentioned my opinion that I find the whole thing sad, and even that I disagree with what has happened. As far as I know, even on a forum like this it’s all right for me to respectfully state an opinion. And I have been nothing but respectful even in the face of your accusations.

For the record, I have a lot of respect for the Catholic church, in spite of what I personally feel may be its shortcomings. You can believe that or not. Whatever.

Anyone immersed in a Catholic environment (as you suggest you have been) would know that the Catholic/Orthodox belief is that Sacred Scripture is actually a subset of Sacred Tradition. That Sacred Tradition is not to be confused with man-made customs and disciplines – such as “Bible-onlyism.” While Sacred Tradition (including Sacred Scripture) can be more fully revealed, it can never be discounted or changed.

Sorry, we didn’t quite get that far in the curriculum with the second-graders. My bad.

you also seem to be tipping more and more of your hand with each posting

I have only given the facts as I know them, along with some clearly labeled opinions. If facts “tip my hand…” well, draw your own conclusions.

 

[adrift]

Grapes have proteins in them, as do all plants. Why would you think they didn’t?

I absolutely agree that the kid should carry an EpiPen. Those things have saved many lives.

Grapes have no protein bound allergens

What he said was that it wasn’t and allergen. I would disagree with that.

 

[adrift]

Sorry, we didn’t quite get that far in the curriculum with the second-graders. My bad.

.

That does clear up why such basic faith questions are unknown to you. I hope that the misconceptions you have also are cleared up.

 

[Woodstock]

A few of the many scripture verses about the grain of wheat which falls to the ground and resurrects into the Bread of Life being Jesus himself, who is made present to us through the Eucharist.
John 12:24
Ps 147:14
Ps 81:16

It is found in the words spoken by Jesus on Palm Sunday, after entering Jerusalem, in reply to the question of some Greeks who sought to see him: “unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit” (Jn 12:24). In this saying, the Lord compares the course of his whole earthly existence to that of a grain of wheat, which only by dying can produce fruit. He interprets his earthly life, his death and resurrection from the standpoint of the Most Holy Eucharist, which recapitulates his entire mystery. He had experienced his death as an act of self-oblation, an act of love, and his body was then transfigured in the new life of the Resurrection. He, the Incarnate Word, now becomes our food, food which leads to true life, life eternal. -Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger on Good Friday, 2005

“Unless a grain of wheat falls on the ground and dies, it remains only a single grain; but if it dies, it yields a rich harvest” (Io. 12, 24). Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ; beloved Pilgrims from all the continents of the world,

1. These words were spoken by the Lord Jesus as he thought of his own death. He himself first of all is that “grain of wheat” which “falls on the ground and dies”. The Son of God, of the same substance as the Father, God from God and Light from Light, was made man. He entered into the life of ordinary men and women as the son of the Virgin Mary of Nazareth. And finally he accepted death on the Cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Precisely in this way the grain of wheat dies and yields a rich harvest. It is the harvest of the Redemption of the world, the harvest of the salvation of souls, the power of truth and love as the beginning of eternal life in God.

In this way the parable of the grain of wheat helps us to understand the very mystery of Christ.

1. At the same time, the grain of wheat that “falls on the ground and dies” becomes the pledge of bread. A man harvests from his fields the heads of grain which have grown from the single grain and, transforming the collected grains into flour, he makes bread from it as food for his own body. In this way Christ’s parable about the grain of wheat helps us to understand the mystery of the Eucharist.

In fact, at the Last Supper, Christ took bread in his own hands, blessed it and said these words over it: “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you”. And the broken Bread which had become in a sacramental way his own Body he distributed to the Apostles.

In a similar way he brought about the transubstantiation of the wine into his own Blood, and distributing it to the Apostles, said: “Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven”. And then he added: “Do this in memory of me”.

1. This is how the mystery of Christ remains among us through the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The mystery of the Redeemer of the world who gave himself up for us all, offering his Body and Blood in the Sacrifice of the Cross. Thanks to the Eucharist the words of our Redeemer are fulfilled: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come back to you” (Io. 14, 18).

In this Sacrament he is always coming to us. We are not orphans. He is with us! -Homily of Pope John Paul II on Sunday, 18 August 1985

the Lord “made them enter into the promised land; there he does not feed them with manna as he did in the desert, but with the wheat that has fallen to the ground (cf. Jn 12,24-25) that is risen… Christ is the wheat; again, he is the rock whose water quenched the thirst of the people of Israel in the desert. In the spiritual sense, he satisfied them with honey and not with water, so that all who believe and receive this food, may taste honey in their mouths” (Omelia sul Salmo 80, n. 17 [Homily on Psalm 80, n. 17]: Origen-Jerome, 74 Omelie sul Libro dei Salmi, [74 Homilies on the Book of the Psalms] Milan 1993, pp. 204-205).

 

[adrift]

Thanks Adrift, I’m an immunology graduate student and worked in an allergy/asthma research lab. I do know what an allergen is.

Do you think everyone hear has your background? I apologize then for assuming that a definition of terms would be helpful.