Child vs. Adult

[DarkLight]

If there were no legal age of maturity, at what point would you consider a child’s obligation to obey to cease?

And for the people who are going to say financial independence: What if factors outside of anyone’s control, such as a physical disability, prevent such independence? Or worse, what if the parents themselves act in such a way as to deny the child the ability to become independent (denying education, preventing them from obtaining employment, etc.)?

 

[PaulfromIowa]

What matters are you speaking of, exactly?

Nobody has to obey a parent who would deny a child an education or future employment opportunities. In such an abusive situation, a teenager could seek legal emancipation.

 

[Viki63]

What matters are you speaking of, exactly?

Nobody has to obey a parent who would deny a child an education or future employment opportunities. In such an abusive situation, a teenager could seek legal emancipation.

Agree with this. But it’s hard to respond because the question is not clear.
Are you a disabled person who is being prevented from attending school? are you over or under the age of majority in your state?
Really, parents can only offer advice to kids after 16 or so, and they may choose to follow it or not. Of course there may be consequences.

 

[UbiCaritas]

If there were no legal age of maturity, at what point would you consider a child’s obligation to obey to cease?

And for the people who are going to say financial independence: What if factors outside of anyone’s control, such as a physical disability, prevent such independence? Or worse, what if the parents themselves act in such a way as to deny the child the ability to become independent (denying education, preventing them from obtaining employment, etc.)?

I would say that once the child is no longer financially dependent upon his or her parents, the obligation to obey ceases.

If the parents prevent someone over 18 from obtaining an education or getting a job, that’s illegal.

Yep, it’s harder when parents aren’t supportive or helpful. Mine weren’t. I was homeschooled by abusive parents, one of whom was addicted to alcohol and was probably a sociopath, until I turned 16. The last few years I wasn’t really studying much at all. At 16, I knew that the only way I’d ever get out of the abusive situation I was in was to get an education, so I announced that I was going to public school. Lots of complaining, but they knew that it would be a lot more unpleasant for them if I reported to the appropriate people that I wasn’t getting an education–and believe me, short of physical shackles, there isn’t a way to prevent a teenager from leaving a house or communicating with someone if she really wants to. Got my diploma while working 2-3 jobs in order to pay for the car that I knew was the next step to freedom. Upon graduation, I moved across the country and was entirely independent of my parents financially shortly thereafter. Put myself through school going to class full-time and working 3 jobs.

It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I did it. I would never have done it if I thought of it as years and years of eating on a dirt-cheap budget, scrimping to pay rent, stressing over any and every expense, and so on. Instead, every day, I got up and decided what I was going to get done that day. Perhaps I’d register for classes, or write a paper, or find out what financial aid was available at a university to which I applied, or cook a week’s worth of beans in the crockpot, or clean my apartment.

Short version: if you don’t like a situation you’re in, find out what you need to get out of it, then find the resources to do so, and then do it.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Sometimes the resources just aren’t there. If they had been, I would have gotten out of my parents control a lot earlier than I did. But, they were “good” people, so no one believed me when I said otherwise. I finally joined the Army, which was like jumping from from the kettle and into the fire, or however that saying goes. I’m finally free enough to speak my mind, but even that might cause a rupture depending on the mood my mom’s in.

 

[EasterJoy]

Well, as Christians, we are to be at the service of others, so I’m not advocating that anyone turn their back on caring about the desires of others in favor of caring about their own. I’m going to assume the OP does not mean that.

When a child becomes an adult by reason of having reached the age of majority, their parents need to treat them like adults, and the child has the right to expect that. When the child proceeds from 18 to 21 and then to 25, this is even more true. IOW, the more life experience an adult has, the more others ought to butt out of trying to run their lives.

This is true even if the child has a physical disability that leaves them dependent on others for their care, even if it is care that the parents have stepped in to provide. A grown man deserves the dignity of being treated like a grown man, even if he can’t work or needs help to feed and toilet himself. A grown woman deserves the dignity of being treated like a grown woman, even if she has accepted assistance in completing her education or needs to turn to others for transportation. Of course an adult has a duty to act like an adult, too, by exercising self-control in speech and so on. Those who allow themselves to act in ways more typical of a petulant eight-year-old would have a lot of chutzpah in order to insist on being given the respect due to an adult!

Obedience would depend on the situation. For instance, if a child is an employee of a parent, they need to obey like any other employee. If they are the beneficiary of free room and board provided by a parent, they need to give their parents the respect due to such a benefactor, not to mention abiding by the rules of the owners of the house and pitching in to help out where they can. They are in a position of having to take what is being offered, and usually can’t demand that the situation revolve around them. That does not mean that a benefactor can rightly treat the object of their charity like a slave or a minor who gets to make none of his or her own decisions.

Likewise, if a parent is legitimately in need of care he or she cannot provide for themselves, the children are the first ones who ought to step in to render that care in the parent’s old age, to the extent that they can. (By “can,” I definitely include the need to avoid contact with an abuser, including a verbal or emotional abuser.) The child doesn’t have to provide what the parent dictates, but the child who has stepped in as the caretaker has no right to treat their parent as if the parent were now the child. The parent deserves the dignity of being treated like an adult, with the two negotiating how the care is going to go.

This is usually a matter that has to be negotiated, even when the benefactor and/or caretaker is not a parent of the object of their generosity. Extending charity does not make you the owner of the person you have treated charitably, but it is very tempting to give with strings attached. The person who gives has a right to their own boundaries and of course they can also ask for a bit of this for that up front. It is something that is worked out as these situations evolve in a family, rather than being something that people “get right” the first time.
I hope that helps.

 

[DarkLight]

I would say that once the child is no longer financially dependent upon his or her parents, the obligation to obey ceases.

If the parents prevent someone over 18 from obtaining an education or getting a job, that’s illegal.

Not entirely. I know cases where girls (it was usually girls) were homeschooled enough to qualify as a basic high school education, but no more. Certain modern skills, notably computer literacy, might not be included. They were never allowed to interact with anyone not approved by parents. Generally there were enough tasks set on them to keep them busy the entire day. Any money they did manage to earn would be immediately taken by the parent.

Prior to 18, doing things like leaving without permission could get a child sent to one of various camps or homes for disobedient children. After 18 there was a good chance it would get the child kicked out of the family home. Where would they go? Lacking exposure to life outside the home, would they even know how to go about looking for a job?

Sometimes the resources just aren’t there. If they had been, I would have gotten out of my parents control a lot earlier than I did. But, they were “good” people, so no one believed me when I said otherwise. I finally joined the Army, which was like jumping from from the kettle and into the fire, or however that saying goes. I’m finally free enough to speak my mind, but even that might cause a rupture depending on the mood my mom’s in.

That was my experience as well, especially as someone who did have health problems. What was I going to do, go live in a shelter with no health insurance and no ability to get a job? That seemed like more like suicide than a way out. I was not going to survive without medical care, care that wasn’t going to be provided without someone footing the bill.

I remember keenly a friend of mine, her repeated attempts to get away from an abusive parent. No one cared, no one stepped in. Once she was out of the house she had no access to her medications for bipolar. This led to symptoms re-emerging, which inevitably led to getting kicked out of whatever shelter she was in.

That is part of why I asked - health problems may delay independence significantly without it being any reflection on the responsibility of the young person. Some health problems require a caretaker, and it seems often our society is happy to infantilize such individuals for having increased physical needs. Even with more manageable issues, in my experience cost is a big issue. Young adult incomes in today’s economy often have little to no room for medical issues - that delayed me for a long time, because if I completely separated from my parents I would have had to come off the medications that were keeping me sane. It was too much for the paltry insurance I had access to. Suddenly add in an extra $100 plus per month to someone who’s barely scraping by on a minimum wage job, trying to get an education…that may not be doable.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Not entirely. I know cases where girls (it was usually girls) were homeschooled enough to qualify as a basic high school education, but no more. Certain modern skills, notably computer literacy, might not be included. They were never allowed to interact with anyone not approved by parents. Generally there were enough tasks set on them to keep them busy the entire day. Any money they did manage to earn would be immediately taken by the parent.

Prior to 18, doing things like leaving without permission could get a child sent to one of various camps or homes for disobedient children. After 18 there was a good chance it would get the child kicked out of the family home. Where would they go? Lacking exposure to life outside the home, would they even know how to go about looking for a job?

That was my experience as well, especially as someone who did have health problems. What was I going to do, go live in a shelter with no health insurance and no ability to get a job? That seemed like more like suicide than a way out. I was not going to survive without medical care, care that wasn’t going to be provided without someone footing the bill.

I remember keenly a friend of mine, her repeated attempts to get away from an abusive parent. No one cared, no one stepped in. Once she was out of the house she had no access to her medications for bipolar. This led to symptoms re-emerging, which inevitably led to getting kicked out of whatever shelter she was in.

That is part of why I asked - health problems may delay independence significantly without it being any reflection on the responsibility of the young person. Some health problems require a caretaker, and it seems often our society is happy to infantilize such individuals for having increased physical needs. Even with more manageable issues, in my experience cost is a big issue. Young adult incomes in today’s economy often have little to no room for medical issues - that delayed me for a long time, because if I completely separated from my parents I would have had to come off the medications that were keeping me sane. It was too much for the paltry insurance I had access to. Suddenly add in an extra $100 plus per month to someone who’s barely scraping by on a minimum wage job, trying to get an education…that may not be doable.

In the former case–a situation with which I’m familiar, and it’s sadly all too common–it’s that girl’s responsibility, once she’s of age and if she wants to change her life, to get the skills she’ll need to survive as an adult. You don’t need computer skills to work in fast food, or in most areas of retail, for example, and those few that you need (searching inventory via a software program, for example) are usually so specific that they’re learned on the job. Again, I am not saying that these are easy decisions to make! However, they are necessary ones if she’s going to become a functioning adult. This is one of the biggest issues I have with a lot of the homeschooling movement, but that’s a rant for another day.

In my case, I had a bare minimum of computer skills (read: I knew how to use a mouse and keyboard and could two-finger type), and absolutely no social skills because I wasn’t really allowed to socialize with anyone my age lest I be exposed to “bad influences.” The few people I was allowed to socialize with were almost all even more sheltered than I was. Another thing I had to realize once I decided to leave home was that I had to learn social skills. Honestly, I think learning social skills was harder than all the work I put in at school and in jobs. It really was like learning a whole new language, but one in which not just words and inflections, but body language and facial expressions “spoke,” too! What helped me was looking at people around me who seemed at ease in the world and with people, and imitating what I liked about how they interacted. I’m still not entirely at ease with all social situations, though that’s partly because I’m extremely introverted, but I’m sufficiently good that I worked in customer service my entire working life and was quite good at it, judging by the reviews and raises I got.

I didn’t know how to go about getting a job, but I knew that there would be one out there for me if I looked long enough. I started by going to a street in my city with a lot of retail stores and restaurants, and walked into every single one with a resume (had to Google how to write a resume) and dressed as though I was going to an interview. I’d ask to speak with a manager, introduce myself, ask if they were hiring, and then fill out an application. I was very bad at this to begin with, but gradually improved as I did it over and over and over again. Practice makes perfect. I submitted over thirty applications before I got my first retail job.

You do have an excellent point regarding the mental health or other medication aspects. I’d think that a person who requires medication could apply for Medicaid and get most of their medication costs covered by it due to being so low-income, but I’m insufficiently familiar with that scenario to say for certain if that’s feasible. As far as the physically disabled, I have no solution for that, and that’s another point which I hadn’t considered. I was blessed with very good physical health, and rarely had to see a doctor. I suffered from depression, but I didn’t have to go on medication for it as I found that between Al-Anon meetings, working a program, and staying busy with work and school, I just didn’t have time to get as depressed as I otherwise might have. Someone with bipolar, or who needs help to do basic life activities, would be in another situation.

 

[EasterJoy]

In the former case–a situation with which I’m familiar, and it’s sadly all too common–it’s that girl’s responsibility, once she’s of age and if she wants to change her life, to get the skills she’ll need to survive as an adult. You don’t need computer skills to work in fast food, or in most areas of retail, for example, and those few that you need (searching inventory via a software program, for example) are usually so specific that they’re learned on the job. Again, I am not saying that these are easy decisions to make! However, they are necessary ones if she’s going to become a functioning adult. This is one of the biggest issues I have with a lot of the homeschooling movement, but that’s a rant for another day.

In my case, I had a bare minimum of computer skills (read: I knew how to use a mouse and keyboard and could two-finger type), and absolutely no social skills because I wasn’t really allowed to socialize with anyone my age lest I be exposed to “bad influences.” The few people I was allowed to socialize with were almost all even more sheltered than I was. Another thing I had to realize once I decided to leave home was that I had to learn social skills. Honestly, I think learning social skills was harder than all the work I put in at school and in jobs. It really was like learning a whole new language, but one in which not just words and inflections, but body language and facial expressions “spoke,” too! What helped me was looking at people around me who seemed at ease in the world and with people, and imitating what I liked about how they interacted. I’m still not entirely at ease with all social situations, though that’s partly because I’m extremely introverted, but I’m sufficiently good that I worked in customer service my entire working life and was quite good at it, judging by the reviews and raises I got.

I didn’t know how to go about getting a job, but I knew that there would be one out there for me if I looked long enough. I started by going to a street in my city with a lot of retail stores and restaurants, and walked into every single one with a resume (had to Google how to write a resume) and dressed as though I was going to an interview. I’d ask to speak with a manager, introduce myself, ask if they were hiring, and then fill out an application. I was very bad at this to begin with, but gradually improved as I did it over and over and over again. Practice makes perfect. I submitted over thirty applications before I got my first retail job.

You do have an excellent point regarding the mental health or other medication aspects. I’d think that a person who requires medication could apply for Medicaid and get most of their medication costs covered by it due to being so low-income, but I’m insufficiently familiar with that scenario to say for certain if that’s feasible. As far as the physically disabled, I have no solution for that, and that’s another point which I hadn’t considered. I was blessed with very good physical health, and rarely had to see a doctor. I suffered from depression, but I didn’t have to go on medication for it as I found that between Al-Anon meetings, working a program, and staying busy with work and school, I just didn’t have time to get as depressed as I otherwise might have. Someone with bipolar, or who needs help to do basic life activities, would be in another situation.

I would also check with the school district, because state standards may have evolved to include computer literacy.

What the young person in this situation often lacks is the savvy to make use of those services that are available, which is very frustrating for those who are in a position to help them, both in the public sector and in the private sector charities. Honestly, in this situation I would advise a call to Catholic Charities, just to see if someone could give me an aim in the direction of available social services. A minor who has not yet graduated from high school might have access to more free educational opportunities than someone who has not. Who knows what kind of services might be available? One needs to find out who to ask, because what is available and what has to be done to get it differs by jurisdiction.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If the parents prevent someone over 18 from obtaining an education or getting a job, that’s illegal.t.

Your story is moving. But I am not sure this part is true.

I don’t know what law that breaks? Is that just in your state.

In the US people over the age of 18 are prevented from getting jobs many times by colleges. Some NCAA rules specifically prohibit jobs of student athletes. These athletes are not paid for their “work” and go to school under scholarship.

I doubt the NCAA has more authority than parents. (well maybe I don’t doubt it now that I think about it) But honestly I don’t know what legal law is being broken by “preventing” someone from getting a job. How is the preventing done? Just an order?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

OP

I would say physical and financial independence and/or marriage.

 

[marymary1975]

Well, as Christians, we are to be at the service of others, so I’m not advocating that anyone turn their back on caring about the desires of others in favor of caring about their own. I’m going to assume the OP does not mean that.

When a child becomes an adult by reason of having reached the age of majority, their parents need to treat them like adults, and the child has the right to expect that. When the child proceeds from 18 to 21 and then to 25, this is even more true. IOW, the more life experience an adult has, the more others ought to butt out of trying to run their lives.

This is true even if the child has a physical disability that leaves them dependent on others for their care, even if it is care that the parents have stepped in to provide. A grown man deserves the dignity of being treated like a grown man, even if he can’t work or needs help to feed and toilet himself. A grown woman deserves the dignity of being treated like a grown woman, even if she has accepted assistance in completing her education or needs to turn to others for transportation. Of course an adult has a duty to act like an adult, too, by exercising self-control in speech and so on. Those who allow themselves to act in ways more typical of a petulant eight-year-old would have a lot of chutzpah in order to insist on being given the respect due to an adult!

Obedience would depend on the situation. For instance, if a child is an employee of a parent, they need to obey like any other employee. If they are the beneficiary of free room and board provided by a parent, they need to give their parents the respect due to such a benefactor, not to mention abiding by the rules of the owners of the house and pitching in to help out where they can. They are in a position of having to take what is being offered, and usually can’t demand that the situation revolve around them. That does not mean that a benefactor can rightly treat the object of their charity like a slave or a minor who gets to make none of his or her own decisions.

Likewise, if a parent is legitimately in need of care he or she cannot provide for themselves, the children are the first ones who ought to step in to render that care in the parent’s old age, to the extent that they can. (By “can,” I definitely include the need to avoid contact with an abuser, including a verbal or emotional abuser.) The child doesn’t have to provide what the parent dictates, but the child who has stepped in as the caretaker has no right to treat their parent as if the parent were now the child. The parent deserves the dignity of being treated like an adult, with the two negotiating how the care is going to go.

This is usually a matter that has to be negotiated, even when the benefactor and/or caretaker is not a parent of the object of their generosity. Extending charity does not make you the owner of the person you have treated charitably, but it is very tempting to give with strings attached. The person who gives has a right to their own boundaries and of course they can also ask for a bit of this for that up front. It is something that is worked out as these situations evolve in a family, rather than being something that people “get right” the first time.
I hope that helps.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[DarkLight]

Your story is moving. But I am not sure this part is true.

I don’t know what law that breaks? Is that just in your state.

In the US people over the age of 18 are prevented from getting jobs many times by colleges. Some NCAA rules specifically prohibit jobs of student athletes. These athletes are not paid for their “work” and go to school under scholarship.

I doubt the NCAA has more authority than parents. (well maybe I don’t doubt it now that I think about it) But honestly I don’t know what legal law is being broken by “preventing” someone from getting a job. How is the preventing done? Just an order?

Generally if someone is over 18, it’s done by saying “if you get a job we are kicking you out and you will not be allowed any support or contact with us or your siblings until you quit and come home.” Usually accompanied by scary stories about the outside world, plus most likely the 18 year old has no idea what resources are out there or how to utilize them. I know even as a not terribly sheltered 18 year old I would have had no idea what to do had my family kicked me out. I had been thoroughly convinced that young women who just ran away like that ended up selling themselves on the street corner.

OP

I would say physical and financial independence and/or marriage.

What would you say in the latter case, where someone is prevented by physical disability from achieving these goals? It would seem odd for an adult of 30 to be still bound to obedience in such a case. Let us assume that outside aid either isn’t available or isn’t sufficient.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Your story is moving. But I am not sure this part is true.

I don’t know what law that breaks? Is that just in your state.

In the US people over the age of 18 are prevented from getting jobs many times by colleges. Some NCAA rules specifically prohibit jobs of student athletes. These athletes are not paid for their “work” and go to school under scholarship.

I doubt the NCAA has more authority than parents. (well maybe I don’t doubt it now that I think about it) But honestly I don’t know what legal law is being broken by “preventing” someone from getting a job. How is the preventing done? Just an order?

From my perspective and history, a woman over 18 would be prevented from getting a job by her parents refusing to allow her to leave the house unless for a sanctioned activity. Some women/girls in the homeschool movement aren’t even allowed to leave the house if their parents think they will “sin” when they do so. I recently helped a formerly-homeschooled woman “run away from home” at the age of 27 because her father wouldn’t let her leave the house lest she associate with “sinners.” Yeah. She had no idea how to set up a bank account, pay bills, get insurance, etc, because it wasn’t “her place” as a woman to know those things, and wanting to know those things showed a “rebellious spirit.” Not all homeschoolers are anywhere near this extreme, but it does happen, and the situation DarkLight describes is not at all uncommon. Keeping an adult in a physical location against her will is illegal.

 

[EasterJoy]

From my perspective and history, a woman over 18 would be prevented from getting a job by her parents refusing to allow her to leave the house unless for a sanctioned activity. Some women/girls in the homeschool movement aren’t even allowed to leave the house if their parents think they will “sin” when they do so. I recently helped a formerly-homeschooled woman “run away from home” at the age of 27 because her father wouldn’t let her leave the house lest she associate with “sinners.” Yeah. She had no idea how to set up a bank account, pay bills, get insurance, etc, because it wasn’t “her place” as a woman to know those things, and wanting to know those things showed a “rebellious spirit.” Not all homeschoolers are anywhere near this extreme, but it does happen, and the situation DarkLight describes is not at all uncommon. Keeping an adult in a physical location against her will is illegal.

Most of the time, this is not done in an illegal way–the daughters are not literally locked up–but by using the threat of severe relational aggression, even to the extent of total shunning, and by manipulating the daughter to believe that exerting her own rights as an adult would gravely offend God and result in the loss of Heaven. Suffice it to say that such behavior on the part of parents is a grave offense against the virtue of religion, even if their culpability is (like all culpability) something that only the Reader of Hearts may judge.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Generally if someone is over 18, it’s done by saying “if you get a job we are kicking you out and you will not be allowed any support or contact with us or your siblings until you quit and come home.” Usually accompanied by scary stories about the outside world, plus most likely the 18 year old has no idea what resources are out there or how to utilize them. I know even as a not terribly sheltered 18 year old I would have had no idea what to do had my family kicked me out. I had been thoroughly convinced that young women who just ran away like that ended up selling themselves on the street corner.
.

All of which is bad bad parenting. But not illegal. As was asserted by a previous poster. As far as I know.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What would you say in the latter case, where someone is prevented by physical disability from achieving these goals? It would seem odd for an adult of 30 to be still bound to obedience in such a case. Let us assume that outside aid either isn’t available or isn’t sufficient.

Financial independence.

Unless the parents are aliens, or live in a fourth dimension. Then other rules may apply.

My point is if you use logic then the answer is clear. But if you wish to say what if this or what if that then we could go on all day.

When you are independent of your parents.

 

[DarkLight]

From my perspective and history, a woman over 18 would be prevented from getting a job by her parents refusing to allow her to leave the house unless for a sanctioned activity. Some women/girls in the homeschool movement aren’t even allowed to leave the house if their parents think they will “sin” when they do so. I recently helped a formerly-homeschooled woman “run away from home” at the age of 27 because her father wouldn’t let her leave the house lest she associate with “sinners.” Yeah. She had no idea how to set up a bank account, pay bills, get insurance, etc, because it wasn’t “her place” as a woman to know those things, and wanting to know those things showed a “rebellious spirit.” Not all homeschoolers are anywhere near this extreme, but it does happen, and the situation DarkLight describes is not at all uncommon. Keeping an adult in a physical location against her will is illegal.

Unfortunately the law won’t generally regard an adult as being kept there unless physical force is involved. Isolation, psychological manipulation, and generally denying life skills or giving false information are perfectly legal.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

From my perspective and history, a woman over 18 would be prevented from getting a job by her parents refusing to allow her to leave the house unless for a sanctioned activity. Some women/girls in the homeschool movement aren’t even allowed to leave the house if their parents think they will “sin” when they do so. I recently helped a formerly-homeschooled woman “run away from home” at the age of 27 because her father wouldn’t let her leave the house lest she associate with “sinners.” Yeah. She had no idea how to set up a bank account, pay bills, get insurance, etc, because it wasn’t “her place” as a woman to know those things, and wanting to know those things showed a “rebellious spirit.” Not all homeschoolers are anywhere near this extreme, but it does happen, and the situation DarkLight describes is not at all uncommon. Keeping an adult in a physical location against her will is illegal.

Where is the “legal” issue you cited?

I am sure your traumatic past with this has had an effect on you. And it will color your view of any sort of parental/homeschool situation. That would be expected.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Unfortunately the law won’t generally regard an adult as being kept there unless physical force is involved. Isolation, psychological manipulation, and generally denying life skills or giving false information are perfectly legal.

If it wasn’t legal we would have to arrest tons of parents of inner city children. Not to mention Muslims.

“Denying life skills”

I like this charge, I see it every day!