Children allowed to leave during homily?

[byzgirl]

GemmaRose:
Having catechetical training for adults (a bit late, but a good idea), in addition to bible studies in light of Church teaching, and apologetics courses is a GRAND IDEA. That is in sync with what I was thinking–if you raise kids up with knowledge in the faith, they won’t be like some of these Catholic adults who are either cafeteria Catholics or don’t know a thing (not even WHY they’re Catholic). Yes, adults would definitely benefit.

I would agree with others, that, children that have difficulties in understanding the homily should have supplemental instruction at home (where faith is first taught and continually nurtured, properly speaking). I’ve ‘explained’ the main theme of the homily, when I felt it was something that they missed or didn’t understand. I find it inappropriate to believe that an extra special effort must be made to make everything kid-friendly. After all, sometimes adults aren’t listening nor necessarily understanding all content in a homily! I think that the children should be in a setting that makes them ‘reach’ for higher thoughts (even those they are unable to fully grasp yet). We are all called to the same aspirations, in thought, word, and deed.

I still think that children should be approached, outside of the Liturgy, for extra instruction, explanations, activities, and fun. I do NOT believe that the Liturgy should be comprised of ‘adults’ and then the ‘children’. We come to the Table as the Body of Christ. There’s no kid’s table and an adult table…just one table to which we are all called.

I do not like the Protestant undertones this is producing and could further produce. The idea of Jr. Church is a very bad one…and separates the children from the adults (as if children aren’t part of the Body of Christ). It LEADS to a furthering of this ‘kid-friendly’ atmosphere. They have babysitting services and Jr. Church (and teach them all kinds of kid-level ‘Jesus’ stuff)…but are Latin Rite Catholics heading down the road in the wrong direction?

As Jimmy Akin pointed out in his article, the important thing is that our children be led TO the sacrifice at the altar, and receive Jesus physically and spiritually…not that they be ushered in another direction to hear a good, kid-frioendly homily (as nice as that may sound).

 

[KathleenElsie]

If a child is not yet able to receive communion or be confirmed because s/he is unable to understand what is transpiring at the Mass then by all means let them be taught at whatever level they are capable of understanding.

I also think that if a child is able to be confirmed and has already received First Communion then that child should be at the whole MASS.

In our Parish young people up to the 5th grade are “invited” to leave for children’s Liturgy. Some of them that are leaving one Sunday are serving as Altar servers the next.

 

[Phemie]

The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops recently issued a document on precisely this topic. They base their recommendation on the Directory on Masses with Children. They have this to say:

1. A proper Liturgy of the Word can benefit children but should be an occasional thing, based more on the contents of the Gospel than on any other consideration.
2. It’s to be limited to children 4-8 years old, any younger it’s babysitting, any older should be restricted to those who have just recently received their First Communion.
3. The readings are to be from the Children’s Lectionary, nothing else. There may only be 2 but always the Gospel, Psalm, Gospel Acclamation, the reflection (and the Directory of Masses with Children allows this to be given by a lay person), the Creed, the Intercessions and then a return to assembly.
4. A true Liturgy of the Word for Children does not involve pencils, paper or crafts of any kind.
5. No child may be forced to go, not even in the context of sacramental preparation.

 

[byzgirl]

When a homily is given, it may never be preached by a lay man, lay woman, or non-ordained religious, such as a nun. **Only ordained men may given the homily.**The Code of Canon Law states:
Canon 767 ß1 The most important form of preaching is the homily, which is part of the liturgy, and is reserved to a priest or deacon. In the course of the liturgical year, the mysteries of faith and the rules of Christian living are to be expounded in the homily from the sacred text.
66. The Homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to the deacon, but never to a lay person.[65] In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.

 

[byzgirl]

Are we going to become Protestant-like with their age-of-reason mentality for coming to Jesus? I think children, regardless of age and understanding, are to come to Jesus. There isn’t any reason that children should be separated from their families during the liturgy. And it is clear that any homilies that are given, should be given by an ordained man, and not a layperson. I’m sure that this is also true for any ‘Liturgy of the Word’ for children.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Unless our children are serving at the Mass they are in the pew with the family. No other exceptions.

 

[Phemie]

Are we going to become Protestant-like with their age-of-reason mentality for coming to Jesus? I think children, regardless of age and understanding, are to come to Jesus. There isn’t any reason that children should be separated from their families during the liturgy. And it is clear that any homilies that are given, should be given by an ordained man, and not a layperson. I’m sure that this is also true for any ‘Liturgy of the Word’ for children.

This is what the Directory for Masses with Children has to say:

1. Nevertheless, in Masses of this kind (my note: this refers to the usual Sunday Mass and other Masses where there are many adults and some/many children) it is necessary to take great care that the children present do not feel neglected because of their inability to participate or to understand what happens and what is proclaimed in the celebration. Some account should be taken of their presence: for example, by speaking to them directly in the introductory comments (as at the beginning and the end of Mass) and at some point in the homily.

Sometimes, moreover, if the place itself and the nature of the community permit, it will be appropriate to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word, including a homily, with the children in a separate, but not too distant, room. Then, before the Eucharistic Liturgy begins, the children are led to the place where the adults have meanwhile celebrated their own Liturgy of the Word.

1. Since the Eucharist is always the action of the entire ecclesial community, the participation of at least some adults is desirable. These should be present not as monitors but as participants, praying with the children and helping them to the extent necessary.

**With the consent of the pastor or rector of the church, one of the adults may speak to the children after the gospel, especially if the priest finds it difficult to adapt himself to the mentality of children. **

 

[byzgirl]

I don’t mean to sound picky, but which is more authoritative?..the Code of Canon Law or the Directory?

I think that Canon Law is. I don’t believe that it’s an option, whether or not the priest gives the okay or not.

 

[love4mary]

I am aware that many do not like children leaving for Children’s Liturgy, but it would benefit so many in our parish. Yes, I do make an attempt at explaining the homily and readings to my son, but sometimes even I have problems following Father.

No matter what my attempts are, my children are still very bored with Mass and a Children’s Liturgy might just be the ticket in helping them focus better. When they grow a bit older and understand more, then they can join the rest for the regular Liturgy. I don’t see it happening anytime soon in my parish though.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Are we going to become Protestant-like with their age-of-reason mentality for coming to Jesus? Well, Latin Rite Catholics at the turn of the twentieth century weren’t chrismated and communed until at least 12. It took Pius X to lower that to “the age of reason” around 7. It’s my fond wish that the Latin Rite would confirm and commune infants someday, as well. I think children, regardless of age and understanding, are to come to Jesus. There isn’t any reason that children should be separated from their families during the liturgy. I don’t think so, either. There are PLENTY of helps and assists for parents, including bulletin sheets, that can help explain the readings and the homily. And it is clear that any homilies that are given, should be given by an ordained man, and not a layperson. I’m sure that this is also true for any ‘Liturgy of the Word’ for children. Seems to skimp on the kids, doesn’t it?

I found this interesting piece by John Cardinal Wright on the Vatican web site. I think it ties in nicely with the whole “Jr. Church, Children’s Church” and Real Prescence thing.

 

[byzgirl]

I am aware that many do not like children leaving for Children’s Liturgy, but it would benefit so many in our parish. Yes, I do make an attempt at explaining the homily and readings to my son, but sometimes even I have problems following Father.

No matter what my attempts are, my children are still very bored with Mass and a Children’s Liturgy might just be the ticket in helping them focus better. When they grow a bit older and understand more, then they can join the rest for the regular Liturgy. I don’t see it happening anytime soon in my parish though.

It’s wonderful that you are obviously a good parent who takes your children to church and teaches them about God outside of church (in the home). I do the same with my little ones.

However, that is still not a good enough reason to do so, in my opinion.

If done, according to Canon Law (with an ordained man giving the homily to the children), then I would agree that it’s alright to do (though I personally am against the practice). I think it will lead to abuses, like I said. Give people an inch and they’ll take a mile.

We are NOT PROTESTANTS! They are great with kids’ activities, but because they do not have the Eucharistic Sacrifice of Christ as the center of their worship, these ‘extras’ (music, fun kids activities, praise dancing, etc.) become the focus. Therefore, Jr. Church is a natural product. They are also very much into filling the seats through their skills and persuits of the entertaining and what makes everything cozy and easy for the parents (babysitting and keeping the kids out of their hair). I do not think that Latin Rite Catholics should follow that modern trend.

I also do NOT like things like ‘holding hands during the Our Father’, ’ anyone that isn’t ordained NEAR the altar, taking communion by hand, praise dancing, folk masses, etc.

While a couple (but not all) of these things are actually allowed under certain circumstances; as with most human tendencies, people don’t always follow the rules (and that includes the parish priests).

I believe that children are a blessing and a gift from God, and that they have enough ‘activities’ (both secular and religious) that can be done in and out of the church setting–that they don’t NEED to have extraordinary ‘catering’ for them (I think it’s more for the parents than it is for the kids in the first place).

The Liturgy is an ancient form of worship, and I can’t imagine that the Catholics of the early church worried whether or not their children ‘understood’ everything (even those that heard from the Apostles’ themselves).

I think the Liturgy should remain reverent and sacred. Because it is!

 

[byzgirl]

I found this interesting piece by John Cardinal Wright on the Vatican web site. I think it ties in nicely with the whole “Jr. Church, Children’s Church” and Real Prescence thing.

I’m going to check out the link you provided. As a Byzantine Catholic (raised Latin Rite)…that’s one of the many things I truly appreciate about the Eastern rites–that children are baptized, ‘confirmed’, and receive the Eucharist from infancy. It’s really BEAUTIFUL. And, from what I’ve read, the early Church (which originated in the East, of course) did the same. It was because of the absence of bishops due to availability (who were the ones who were the ones who performed the Christian initiations) that those sacraments became ‘separated’ and delayed. I don’t believe that, in the Catholic Church, there really IS such a thing as an actual ‘age of reason’. We don’t believe that infants or children require full knowledge, because of the faith of the parents (and the fact that ‘coming to know Jesus’ is a journey and not a moment in time). Children are ‘baptized’ within the Body of Christ and are to continually be ‘raised in the faith’. There is no gap in time that a child is ‘not old enough’ to ‘come to Jesus’. It was more about the practicalities of the early church than anything doctrinal.

Protestants, on the other hand, debate us Catholics and employ the man-made idea of ‘only being capable of coming to Christ’ with the ‘age of reason’ idea. They come into difficulties when they debate when, exactly, that age is. Of course, I prefer the Catholic line of thinking…that it’s not necessary to designate such a ‘time’…as our lives as Christians develop (even after the supposed ‘age of reason’). We are in the ‘process’ of salvation–from our birth to our last breath.

Fundamentally speaking, Protestantism is creeping into some Catholics way of thinking (because their modern way of expressing themselves is very modernistic and appeasing to modern sensibilties and cultural ways)–it doesn’t mean that it is the way that the early Church expressed itself, and, as Catholics, we need to avoid such thinking.

That is why I have a problem with innovative (Protestant-like) ways of doing things (and of thinking) creeping into Latin Rite churches/parishes. It’s often leads to errors and/or overstepping boundaries/abuses.

Our worship is not based on entertainment value. I have a website which has information entitled, “What is Worship?” which explains some of this in more detail.

 

[Gamera]

Code of Canon Law 11 says that ecclisiastical laws (such as the requirement of Mass attendance) don’t apply to children 7 or under. Since the under-8’s aren’t required to be there in the first place, there’s no abuse in having them miss one portion of the Mass.

 

[Phemie]

Code of Canon Law 11 says that ecclisiastical laws (such as the requirement of Mass attendance) don’t apply to children 7 or under. Since the under-8’s aren’t required to be there in the first place, there’s no abuse in having them miss one portion of the Mass.

If it’s done right, IOW, a true Liturgy of the Word (no crafts & such) they aren’t missing anything, they’re just getting it in a simplified language.

 

[GemmaRose]

I don’t mean to sound picky, but which is more authoritative?..the Code of Canon Law or the Directory?

I think that Canon Law is. I don’t believe that it’s an option, whether or not the priest gives the okay or not.

It’s wonderful that you are obviously a good parent who takes your children to church and teaches them about God outside of church (in the home). I do the same with my little ones.

However, that is still not a good enough reason to do so, in my opinion.

If done, according to Canon Law (with an ordained man giving the homily to the children), then I would agree that it’s alright to do (though I personally am against the practice). I think it will lead to abuses, like I said. Give people an inch and they’ll take a mile.

We are NOT PROTESTANTS! They are great with kids’ activities, but because they do not have the Eucharistic Sacrifice of Christ as the center of their worship, these ‘extras’ (music, fun kids activities, praise dancing, etc.) become the focus. Therefore, Jr. Church is a natural product. They are also very much into filling the seats through their skills and persuits of the entertaining and what makes everything cozy and easy for the parents (babysitting and keeping the kids out of their hair). I do not think that Latin Rite Catholics should follow that modern trend.

I also do NOT like things like ‘holding hands during the Our Father’, ’ anyone that isn’t ordained NEAR the altar, taking communion by hand, praise dancing, folk masses, etc.

While a couple (but not all) of these things are actually allowed under certain circumstances; as with most human tendencies, people don’t always follow the rules (and that includes the parish priests).

I believe that children are a blessing and a gift from God, and that they have enough ‘activities’ (both secular and religious) that can be done in and out of the church setting–that they don’t NEED to have extraordinary ‘catering’ for them (I think it’s more for the parents than it is for the kids in the first place).

The Liturgy is an ancient form of worship, and I can’t imagine that the Catholics of the early church worried whether or not their children ‘understood’ everything (even those that heard from the Apostles’ themselves).

I think the Liturgy should remain reverent and sacred. Because it is!

I don’t know how to say this without sounding harsh, and I really don’t mean it that way since we are all entitled to our opinons, but what popped into my mind as I read these posts was Mark 2:23-27:

23 As he was passing through a field of grain on the sabbath, his disciples began to make a path while picking the heads of grain. 24 At this the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the sabbath?” 25 He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions were hungry? 26 How he went into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest and ate the bread of offering that only the priests could lawfully eat, and shared it with his companions?” 27 Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

 

[byzgirl]

If it’s done right, IOW, a true Liturgy of the Word (no crafts & such) they aren’t missing anything, they’re just getting it in a simplified language.

I don’t think that the issue of ‘doing crafts or not’ is the problem (although, if they did, I would be horrified). The ‘directory’ states that they shouldn’t be far away, so I would think that would rule out any craft making in the first place (let’s hope so).

Children that are very young don’t understand much, period. They don’t have much of an attention span, even with simple language…so I think that’s a pointless venture (just babysitting). For those children of school age–why is it so important to cater to them, specifically? This is a NEW novelty, no one seems to point out! There are many adult Catholics in their seats (who neither listen to the homily nor understand the Mass–but are just seat warmers)–should we excuse them while they have it all ‘spelled out’ or have a ‘question and answer’ forum in a back room for those adults that get bored or distracted during the Mass?

I think this is going to lead to an irreverant treatment of the Mass. In no time, some Catholic parishes will be having completely separate Masses for children, with an unordained layminister giving out communion for them. I can see it now.

 

[byzgirl]

I don’t know how to say this without sounding harsh, and I really don’t mean it that way since we are all entitled to our opinons, but what popped into my mind as I read these posts was Mark 2:23-27:

Actually, I think that this verse of Scripture would more aptly fit the novel idea against a ‘Liturgy of the Word for Children’, if anything! Aren’t some of you fans of this new practice simply ‘fitting the Liturgy’ into a more custom-made, ‘this-is-what-makes-me-happy’ event?

Does God want the Children to walk in the opposite direction (away from the Tabernacle and the people)?

Besides, do you think there are enough ordained men present in these parishes that would are able to give the children a ‘simpler homily’, or is it being done by laypersons?

I think that laypersons are being given WAY TOO MUCH responsiblity in most Latin Rite churches. And I think this is going to cause even further ‘overstepping’.

I think this may lead to Jr. Church for Catholic children, in the foootsteps of Protestants…before too long. And, sadly, I can just imagine that parents who, loving the idea of 'good children’s programs and ministries (during the Liturgy) will be leaving the Church-- for the fun, kid-friendly Protestant church down the road–because of the a practice that wasn’t being done in the right, church-approved manner.

 

[byzgirl]

Layministers should NOT be giving our children lessons, during the Mass, that should be available to them before or after. What is the HUGE necessity for it to be done, DURING? I think many Catholic parents do not want to spend ANY EXTRA time at Church (than they absolutely have to). It’s more ‘convenient’ for them to have their children’s catechetical lessons given to them DURING the Mass so that they can rush the doors on the way out! We just created an all-inclusive Liturgy for children which provides babysitting and another reason why children won’t be seen at CCD classes or any other activity that isn’t found ‘during the Liturgy’.

Fairly soon we’ll be seeing ‘praise dancers and drop-down movie screens for video presentations’ during the Liturgy, and laypersons as priests. Then we’ll be JUST like the fun, kid-oriented, Protestant church down on the corner.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Code of Canon Law 11 says that ecclisiastical laws (such as the requirement of Mass attendance) don’t apply to children 7 or under. Since the under-8’s aren’t required to be there in the first place, there’s no abuse in having them miss one portion of the Mass.

So then when the call is made for the children from kindergarten through 5th grade to come forward for “their” literary it is to assumed that the child in 5th grade is under 8 years old?

In the real world a child enters k at age 5, 1st at age 6, 2nd at age 7, 3rd at age 8 if you send your child to public or catholic schools. There are a few exceptions to this I understand. Yet the majority of the “children” are 9 or 10 years old and even up to 13 years old in our parish that leave the Mass for a watered down readings and a homily that is given by a lay woman.

 

[Gamera]

Gamera:

Code of Canon Law 11 says that ecclisiastical laws (such as the requirement of Mass attendance) don’t apply to children 7 or under. Since the under-8’s aren’t required to be there in the first place, there’s no abuse in having them miss one portion of the Mass.

So then when the call is made for the children from kindergarten through 5th grade to come forward for “their” literary it is to assumed that the child in 5th grade is under 8 years old?

I said if the child was under 8 there was no problem. I never said anything about 5th grade. Nor is anything mentioned about 5th graders during Mass at my church. Our priest invites “the little children,” not 5th graders. Why, is it different at your church?