He calls ALL the children from Kindergarten through 5th grade forward. So those of us that keep our children with us are made to stand out and have even had comments from other parents and adults that don’t like the kids at Mass.
That is unfortunate because the norm is for the children to be in the pews with their parents and the exception is the Children’s Liturgy. As our bishops have made clear, no child is to be sent who doesn’t want to go or family made to feel that not sending their child is wrong. The catechist who celebrates the Liturgy of the Word with the children (those who are preparing for First Communion) doesn’t allow her granddaughter to go to the little ones’ ‘Liturgy’ which in our parish is a free for all craft time with the parents all sitting around chatting.
“Comments?” Geez, what would a Catholic Mass be without the requisite screaming kids! I’d feel like something was missing! Mine are too young for the kids’ session yet, but the only kids I see going there are young ones – young as in, 4-6. Certainly no 5th graders.
Actually, I think that this verse of Scripture would more aptly fit the novel idea against a ‘Liturgy of the Word for Children’, if anything! Aren’t some of you fans of this new practice simply ‘fitting the Liturgy’ into a more custom-made, ‘this-is-what-makes-me-happy’ event?
**I don’t understand how you think Mark 2:23-7 supports your position. Please explain.
The Pharisees were complaining about the disciples breaking a Sabbath law. You are saying a Children’s Liturgy of the Word breaks Church law.
The disciples did not mean to offend God. They were hungry - they did it innocently, unthinkingly.
Those who are proponents of a Children’s Liturgy of the Word also do not want to offend God; they want to help the children better understand the Word. Jesus said to let the little children come to Him. What is the greater good - to leave a small child with the good memories of how Mrs. Jones explained nice stories about Jesus, leading the children to listening in Church when he or she is older and can understand a homily, or some of it… or a child who has memories of uncomfortable squirming and being shushed while he or she was forced to sit through something he or she could not comprehend?**
Does God want the Children to walk in the opposite direction (away from the Tabernacle and the people)?
During the Liturgy of the Word, the Tabernacle is not the focus. Actually, the Tabernacle is NEVER a focal point of the Mass. What is the focal point is the sacrifice which takes place upon the altar. By the time that is taking place, the children are back in the church. Additionally, Jesus is also present in the Word, not just in the Eucharist.
Besides, do you think there are enough ordained men present in these parishes that would are able to give the children a ‘simpler homily’, or is it being done by laypersons?
**But whose fault is that? Where is the deacon? He comes to one Mass and goes home. How about sticking around for the children and thus fulfilling his role as an ordained man?
However, even when there is no one ordained, what harm is there when the children are not even of the age where they are obligated to be there in the first place?**
I think that laypersons are being given WAY TOO MUCH responsiblity in most Latin Rite churches. And I think this is going to cause even further ‘overstepping’.
News flash: “Laypersons” are also members of the Body of Christ! Membership carries responsibilities, and if teaching children the faith is not a responsibility then I don’t know what is. “It takes a village to raise a child.” (And if you’re not Latin Rite, why do you care so much?)
I think this may lead to Jr. Church for Catholic children, in the foootsteps of Protestants…before too long. And, sadly, I can just imagine that parents who, loving the idea of 'good children’s programs and ministries (during the Liturgy) will be leaving the Church-- for the fun, kid-friendly Protestant church down the road–because of the a practice that wasn’t being done in the right, church-approved manner.
**That’s just a wild, unsupported guess on your part now, isn’t it?**
very well put. I agree.I personally am not fond of this practice. As someone who has worked with young children for years, I dislike how much they are underestimated by so many…removing them during the Mass is another case of “dumbing things down” needlessly. Much better to discuss with and teach the little ones while keeping them in the context of our true worship…not an alternative experience of some sort.
Though well-intentioned, the Lectionary for Masses with Children, in my opinion, is not a good thing.
Well, obviously this sort of thing is being done. I don’t like it. But it is. And some of this is NOT being conducted by ordained men, but by laypersons. As I mentioned previously, this can be problematic for good reason. This is treading far too close some Protestant services–for example, Evangelical, non-denominational (non-Liturgical) Protestant churches, that do not have the Liturgy as their focus, often substitute it with hand-clapping music, praise dancers, video presentations (all meant to keep everyone happy and NOT bored)–but it lacks the most important nature of the Church–the Sacraments–above all, the Eucharist (Christ Himself). We have all been subjected to a culture that makes us think that WE do not participate, but are spectators in everything. That happiness comes from without, and not from within. While they certainly mean well, they are still lacking. We as Catholics, should teach our children well–but let’s do it in the proper way and in a setting that doesn’t detract from the main focus–the Eucharist–the Lamb of God.
Lay persons who have been asked to do so by their Pastors. Keep in mind, no lay person ever does anything in the Church without either the permission or the direct command of the Pastor.
A great remedy is to go over the readings together before Mass…the children will then be prepared and able to understand.
You’re right, but this is NOT what “Children’s Liturgy of the Word” is. This is an entirely different issue. Also, the issue of making Mass entertaining and making the religious education of children convenient at the expense of their liturgical participation are different issues.
Lay persons who have been asked to do so by their Pastors. Keep in mind, no lay person ever does anything in the Church without either the permission or the direct command of the Pastor.
All well and good. There are certainly enough times that laypersons THINK that they are the bosses (over and above the autority of the priests). But there are also circumstances where priest don’t always follow the rules as they should. I think that those things are spelled out in Canon Law and the Directory for Children’s Masses. From previous posts, it would seem that it’s not an option, but a necessity, to have an ordained person fulfill the position of giving the Liturgy of the Word, REGARDLESS of a particular priest’s permission or not. After all, priests are under the authority of others.
I am in a position at present where my boss, who is also my Pastor, asks that I do the Sacramental Preparation for children during the Liturgy of the Word of the Mass.
I would bet, if it’s a Catholic pastor, that such a request is not allowed. I’d have to check into that…but I’m thinking that it’s not (regardless, again, of your boss’s suggestion). It can be difficult of priest’s to be ‘all things for all people’…and divided (but it doesn’t negate the fact that they must adhere to certain criteria for the rubrics of the Mass.
I could quit my job, I suppose, but then the next person hired would have to do this, and what is solved?
I would doubt that your this one request is the sum total of your job position. I would think that you could refulse. After all, isn’t it MORE important that you are not treading on ground that could be considered in the category of Liturgical abuse? The priest is ordained for a reason (by the laying on of hands, and apostolic succession). Laypersons, of course, are a very important and vital part of the Church…but we are NOT priests and need to stay clear of what God assigned to them and them alone.
I could come up with a better idea, to accomplish the goals that are intended here. (The goal is to get the families to come to Mass.
**Catholic churches, unlike the Evangelical non-denominational mega churches (as an example), are NOT just out for the goal of seat filling. Yes, we want to bring all into the one Church (that’s true)–but not at any cost. The goal is to bring people to a legitimate and sacred Mass (one that is fitting). There are a number of heretical, dissident Catholics who claim the title ‘Catholic’’ but, for one reason or another, wanted to ‘change’ the Mass or refuse any changes since Vatican II. But the truth is, that authority comes from Christ, though His Church. As Catholics, we are under the authority that Christ gave to the Church and its leaders. We must adhere to the proper order and conduct of the Mass…and not stray too far into areas which can lead to ‘vacating the seats’. Dissidents begin their own churches over issues similar to this one (and become their own authority).
We are not just filling seats, but filling the soul and body with the Eucharistic meal that God intended for His New Covenant people (the Church). Our main goal is that Catholics understand WHY they are Catholics…that they are filling the seats of a Catholic Church (and not any other) for a REASON(s). **
Previous experience has shown that the parents will bring their children for Sacramental preparation, but not for Mass, if the Sacramental preparation takes place outside of Mass.) So far, I have no better ideas, though. I wish I knew how to get inside people’s heads and motivate them to come to Mass for the right reasons. For my priest, though, the bottom line is, bums on pews, at Mass. Whatever it takes to get them there. He’s in charge, not me. I do as I’m told. I make proposals, and I suggest ideas, but he’s the one who makes the final decisions.
And, if you feel that his motives are poor, you need to speak with the bishop. It’s a sad thing that Catholics don’t have a better understanding and appreciation of the Mass (it’s vital–the divine wellspring of our Catholic faith). That’s where apologetics in that area, are so wonderful. But everyone always looks to ‘someone else’ to teach the children–when, as I said before–the main teachers are parents. We need to strive to give the a very solid and significant understanding (with the aids I’ve offered in the last e-mail). Secondarily, we rely on others, including (of course) our parish priest
I know what the ideal is, and I know that we fall far short of it. I’d love to know how to motivate people to get to Mass, without having to take their children out during it. I’d love to be able to hold Sacramental Preparation classes at a time when the whole family can attend together. To me, it seems like both Mass and Sacramental Preparation should be family experiences.
**You’re absolutely right. You’re also a person that can make a difference. It seems that you are very well-intentioned, and are participating in your church and the youth (which is a beautiful gesture). I think that you would do well to talk to the bishop and to look into, perhaps, getting other Catholic parents (orthodox) to assist you in some plans to give children excitement outside of Mass that will make them WANT to be at Mass because they can’t keep away! Once they have the ‘belief’ that the Eucharist of John 6, is actually the real Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ…they won’t stay away. That is our goal, as Catholics. We have it all, and we need to tell others…children AND adults (including other not-so-on-fire Catholics). Pray to the Holy Spirit for assistance…pray…pray…pray…and do the right thing for ourselves and future generations of the Church! /B]
But, I suspect it’s going to take us a while to get there. Keep me in your prayers, and when you come to my parish and see all the kids going out - sorry, yeah, that’s me taking them out.
**God bless you! **
We have Children’s Church which just last for the Liturgy of the Word where they go and they can understand what is happening in the readings. They are all back for the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
**I really don’t mean to paint Protestants in a negative way. I understand that there are certain mainline Protestant denominations that are Liturgical in their worship style. I also admire, very much, their zeal and getting their adults AND children ‘excited’. But there are whole articles written about the sum of religious experience nto equating with emotion, solely. My main point is that, society, in general lends itself to a ‘entertain me’ mentality. And in certain Protestant circles (as an example, Evangelical non-denom communities and the mega0churches), the trend (and a popular one) is to create a FUN atmosphere. Because they lack the central focus of the Eucharist (that we Catholics, alone, have --in its fullest sense)…they DO substitute other things to fill the void. Some of it is also found in the Catholic Mass (because they have imitated what they wanted from us)–including prayers, petitions, and the basic ‘form’ to their services. However, these sorts of Protestant communities often have difficulty in defnining Worship. We don’t have that dilemma, because we have Christ (in the Eucharist)!!!
It isn’t, but I am not so unique, nor so talented, that I can’t easily be replaced by someone who has no idea what the requirements are. (I was considered “overqualified” when first I applied for the job.)
Thanks!
I’m not the one who used the Scripture verse to make a point. You are.
True, and I didn’t understand how the same Scripture supported your point of view and asked you to explain. I didn’t mean to twist your knickers.
From what I gathered, you were trying to state that ‘as those opposed to the idea of a special Chilren’s Liturgy of the Word’…are somehow trying to change or do something to the Liturgy that goes against the way God intended. I, in no way, stated that ‘it goes against Church Law’, but that it’s a new innovation that isn’t necessary and can lead to problems.
Okay. But for the reasons I listed, I think it is necessary. There are some wonderful, holy, and educated priests who give homilies that even adults struggle to understand, and who, at no time in the Mass acknowledge or speak a word to the children as some posters say happens in their parishes. So, I do think there is a necessity, at least in some parishes.
One of the major problems is just this: IF there is no available extra priest, visiting bishop, or ordained deacon available (and I’m not even sure if the Canon Law or the Directory allows for deacons to give homilies–even for the children)…then I can admit that it’s not breaking any canon laws.
Deacons are ordained, and it is part of their vocation to give homilies to any age.
However, I would suggest that there are many parishes which are allowing ‘laypersons’ to fill that position. This is a HUGE PROBLEM because the REASON that priests are supposed to give the homily (and not any layperson) is that they have been trained in theological studies. What happens when a layperson, trying to express ‘what the homily means’ in children’s terms, comes us with something against the Church’s teachings? What if he adds his own opinions that are heretical?
**Once again, for children who are not yet of any age to be obligated to even attend Mass, what is the harm when a Children’s Liturgy of the Word is led by a CCD teacher? They are also trained in the faith (granted, not to the same extent as a priest) and in teaching children. The Church doesn’t just grab CCD teachers off the street. They must be trained and certified.
As to the fear that one can “come up with something against the Church’s teachings” or “adds his own opinions that are heretical,” unfortunately, there are some priests who do the exact same thing in their homilies to adults.**
Not that this is heretical…but I’ll give an example. One of our CCD teachers told our kids, during a VBS, that “Catholics don’t finish the Our Father, like Protestants”. This gave the children a negative impression about Catholicism (as if we we changed something. I immediately corrected her…even though I know she is well-intentioned. Matters can be much worse when no one is around to hear or make corrections…if these Mrs. Jones (who is not theologically trained and educated) should hypothetically begin to teach them wrong things or contrary, the kids may have a fond memory of her, but what sort of problem can that initiate? After all, it’s not just a nice little inspirational message, but actually a part of the Liturgy.
Then either the one chosen to be with the children for the next week should write what he or she plans to say and submit it to the pastor, or the pastor or another priest should prepare a simple homily and give is to the teacher to present to the children if he is physically unable to work with the children himself.
I can tell you that I’m glad, as a Byzantine Catholic, that we don’t have such a thing, as I’d be one of the parents that would keep their kids in the seats with me…regardless of negative comments.
You’re being a bit literal in what I said about the Tabernacle…of course, what I meant, is the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (the Eucharistic sacrifice).
But they return before the Eucharistic sacrifice takes place.
I simply don’t see the necessity of leading the children out, for any reason. It’s NOT as if those opposed are changing anything, because this is a novel idea. Just because it’s a popular one doesn’t mean that it’s a good one.
It may be a good idea and necessary in some parishes and totally unnecessary in others. Parishes differ so.
Maybe you should suggest, to your priest, that a deacon ‘stick around’. That’s not exactly an excuse to substitute a layperson.
Alas, the only “action” some pastors take on a suggestion is the listening to it.At least there’s a Sister who is at every Children’s Liturgy of the Word and she keeps an eye of what’s going on.
It may be what you call a ‘wild guess’ right now…but I certainly won’t be surprised when I hear of situations at certain parishes where this ‘Children’s Liturgy of the Word’ becomes abused.
Wherever human beings are involved, there is the possibilty of abuses cropping up.
Why, I ask again, is it so terrible to suggest that children receive instruction in CCD, Vacation Bible School, children’s Bible Studies, Children’s apologetics courses, and other youth activities during the week? They should. There are plenty of situations where it’s helpful to have laypersons, but I don’t think that they should be giving homilies, even to children.
Children should not feel “left out” at Mass because that can very well lead, when they’re a little older, to a feeling of “Why should I bother to go to Mass? They’re only speaking to the adults!” That’s exactly how I felt and stopped going to Mass for about six years in my teens. Thank God for His grace and for one very special priest, for leading me back to the Church.
I still suggest that a lot of Catholics like to have an all-inclusive ‘let’s get this over with’ sort of Protestant-like atmosphere. “Let’s make EVERYTHING fun and kid-friendly”. You know, even us adults have a tough time understanding ‘mystery’–like the reality of the Trinity. We certainly don’t come close to really ‘grasping’ every concept…and I don’t think that children need that sort of instruction during the Liturgy. Before…after…during the week I’m totally FOR! As a matter of fact, I LOVE and adore great activities for kids and teaching them to LOVE Jesus. I just don’t think that the Liturgy is meant for separation. They are part of the worship, as a whole, and should remain with their families to worship God together!
You know, in an ideal situation, I agree with you here. Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal world, and it isn’t ideal in every parish. Would that it were.
I don’t really understand, I don’t think, fully…It isn’t, but I am not so unique, nor so talented, that I can’t easily be replaced by someone who has no idea what the requirements are. (I was considered “overqualified” when first I applied for the job.)
By the way, it’s the Bishop’s Educational secretary who is recommending this course of action to my priest, as a means of improving Mass attendance. Apparently, it has the Bishop’s approval. (This is my impression, anyway.)
Thanks!