Children around the altar at school mass

[rochejaune]

My kid’s school has Mass most every Friday. I hardly ever go, because of work. But, I got to go today. And it was a little disturbing because during the Eucharistic prayers the priest said that everyone, young and old, should come up around the altar. My 2 youngest kids were sitting with their class, but my 4th grader was sitting with me. I told her that we weren’t going up there, and of course she asked why. I just told her that the altar is a special, sacred place and only priests are allowed up there.

I just read the Directory for Masses with Children, where children are in the majority. And it didn’t say anything about it being OK for children to go up around the altar. Is it somehow different during a children’s mass as opposed to a Sunday mass?

Thanks for your time.

 

[FrDavid96]

My kid’s school has Mass most every Friday. I hardly ever go, because of work. But, I got to go today. And it was a little disturbing because during the Eucharistic prayers the priest said that everyone, young and old, should come up around the altar. My 2 youngest kids were sitting with their class, but my 4th grader was sitting with me. I told her that we weren’t going up there, and of course she asked why. I just told her that the altar is a special, sacred place and only priests are allowed up there.

I just read the Directory for Masses with Children, where children are in the majority. And it didn’t say anything about it being OK for children to go up around the altar. Is it somehow different during a children’s mass as opposed to a Sunday mass?

Thanks for your time.

No, it’s not different. The congregation should not be going up to stand around the altar, and the invitation should not be made.

 

[passus]

I second what Father said.

If you want to peruse this with your Pastor, this link contains a dumbium in which the CDWDS has addressed the issue specifically. You can show it to him.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

 

[benedictgal]

I second what Father said.

If you want to peruse this with your Pastor, this link contains a dumbium in which the CDWDS has addressed the issue specifically. You can show it to him.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

[Edited]

Unfortunately, Masses for children seem to be a hotbed for “innovation”. However, the principle applied in the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy applies here, most especially:

3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.

What went on at that school Mass should not have occured…

 

[Lazerlike42]

I have a similar question… is there some rubric for Masses with children which allow a non-ordained person, such as a seminarian, to preach during the time alloted for the homily, or in lieu of one?

 

[mattkubes]

I have a similar question… is there some rubric for Masses with children which allow a non-ordained person, such as a seminarian, to preach during the time alloted for the homily, or in lieu of one?

As far as I can tell, these canons would still apply:

Can. 767 §1. Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year.

§2. A homily must be given at all Masses on Sundays and holy days of obligation which are celebrated with a congregation, and it cannot be omitted except for a grave cause.

 

[Lazerlike42]

As far as I can tell, these canons would still apply:

Can. 767 §1. Among the forms of preaching, the homily, which is part of the liturgy itself and is reserved to a priest or deacon, is preeminent; in the homily the mysteries of faith and the norms of Christian life are to be explained from the sacred text during the course of the liturgical year.

§2. A homily must be given at all Masses on Sundays and holy days of obligation which are celebrated with a congregation, and it cannot be omitted except for a grave cause.

The reason I ask is because a parish I am familiar with has a weekly Children’s Liturgy in which this often happens, and the pastor is typically rather faithful about this sort of thing, and so I have always assumed there must be some rubric permitting it.

 

[mattkubes]

The reason I ask is because a parish I am familiar with has a weekly Children’s Liturgy in which this often happens, and the pastor is typically rather faithful about this sort of thing, and so I have always assumed there must be some rubric permitting it.

After a little looking around, this document might be more appropriate: Directory for Masses with children. Even still, it mentions the homily without alluding to lay preaching.

“48. The homily explaining the word of God should be given great prominence in all Masses with children. Sometimes the homily intended for children should become a dialogue with them, unless it is preferred that they should listen in silence.”

So the homily can be given a little different structure, but that’s about the only difference I see. But I just skimmed the document, so feel free to post a correction if you notice anything different!

 

[forever47]

[edited] I remember doing this at Masses during the week at the Catholic grade school I went to. That was from 1965 thru 1973, I remember it throughout all 8 years. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, just saying it’s been happening for a very long time.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Aha.

From the Directory for Masses with Children:

1. Since the Eucharist is always the action of the entire ecclesial community, the participation of at least some adults is desirable. These should be present not as monitors but as participants, praying with the children and helping them to the extent necessary.

With the consent of the pastor or rector of the church, one of the adults may speak to the children after the gospel, especially if the priest finds it difficult to adapt himself to the mentality of children. In this matter the norms soon to be issued by the Congregation for the Clergy should be observed.

Even in Masses with children attention is to be paid to the diversity of ministries so that the Mass may stand out clearly as the celebration of the community. [24] For example, readers and cantors, whether children or adults, should be employed. In this way a variety of voices will keep the children from becoming bored.

The Lectionary for Masses with Children hints at the same thing in paragraph 8.

Unless there is a more up to date document on this, I guess that answers that question.

 

[palmas85]

[edited]

Unfortunately, Masses for children seem to be a hotbed for “innovation”. However, the principle applied in the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy applies here, most especially:

What went on at that school Mass should not have occured…

Benedict shame on you:tsktsk: :tsktsk:

Obviously the Priest in question is progressive, therefore right thinking and totally sincere in what he is trying to accomplish. I’m sure that he has no nefarious designs and is merely keeping with the " Spirit of Vatican II"

This quaint and somewhat dangerous, yes I said it dangerous idea that you and some other, how shall I word this delicately, not so progressive individuals, have that the rubrics::bigyikes: : of the Mass must be followed is positively suffocating the initiative and is quite frankly abusive towards progressive minded folks in general and this Priest in particular. Shame on you.

What about freedom of expression, freedom of choice inculturation and heck the American way of life itself?? Don’t they count for anything in your narrow little world??

Hummmm?

Are you ready to sacrifice everything that makes man the center of creation, the center of life and the center of the universe for some stodgy old thing likes rubrics??

I’m shocked, scandalized and mortified at this primitive and quite obviously pre Vatican II influenced mindset… Not only should we applaud these pioneers but we should wholeheartedly join in and add our own modifications to the Mass so that it can truly become all about US.

I mean that is what is really is right? It couldn’t be something as boring as the representation of the supreme sacrifice at Calvary as some have claimed back in the dark old days before Vatican II could it? No it should be a delightful, joyful party type atmosphere from start to finish.

I say not only let the kids ring the altar, lets have them climb all over it. Heck turn the sanctuary into a playground, put in some monkey bars and a swing set and your child care issues are solved. The adults can have their party and the kids can play!!!

A win win situation for all as far as I can see.

 

[mattkubes]

Palmas, I have no clue how you maintained the stamina to write that post (and the monkey bars were a nice touch)…it’s tough to stay in that mindset for too long, isn’t it?

Edit: Woohoo, 500 posts!

 

[rochejaune]

Palmas, you had me going there for awhile. I’m fairly new to this forum, so I don’t know y’all very well and your sense’s of humor.

Anyways, next question…

This same priest has the First Communion children stand around the altar during the Eucharistic prayer and then they take their communion up there. Is this OK, on a special occassion like First Communion?

I can’t see how I can have my daughter NOT go up there with the rest of the kids.

 

[palmas85]

Palmas, you had me going there for awhile. I’m fairly new to this forum, so I don’t know y’all very well and your sense’s of humor.

Anyways, next question…

This same priest has the First Communion children stand around the altar during the Eucharistic prayer and then they take their communion up there. Is this OK, on a special occassion like First Communion?

I can’t see how I can have my daughter NOT go up there with the rest of the kids.

They are NEVER supposed to stand around the Altar.

No one is. It is an innovation that was brought in, accepted by many, and then roundly condemned by Rome and ordered to stop. Obviously, there are still those who feel they know better than the Vatican does on these matters, so the practice continues.

When I was a catechist in San Diego, I attended a workshop that included a Mass. These workshops and conferences were necessary to keep your catechist certification current. At this Mass, we were ALL instructed to ring the Altar and hold hands. All of us were senior catechists and being fairly well versed in the rubrics of the Mass, were quite hesitant to do so. The Priest, heavily involved in Lifeteen and other youth ministries, said that a new directive would shortly be forthcoming from Rome, allowing this practice which he said was called the Missa Corona and was designed especially for children. It didn’t work, we did not ring the Altar and the matter died. Of note is the fact that in this particular type of Mass, Holy Communion is distributed while standing around the altar. Lifeteen was notorious for this practice.

No directive that I have ever heard of ever came out about permitting this this type of Mass by the way,

 

[malphono]

They are NEVER supposed to stand around the Altar.

No one is. It is an innovation that was brought in, accepted by many, and then roundly condemned by Rome and ordered to stop. Obviously, there are still those who feel they know better than the Vatican does on these matters, so the practice continues. …

No directive that I have ever heard of ever came out about permitting this this type of Mass by the way,

Oh yeah, the practice continues. I’ve even seen bishops do it. And, btw, it’s not necessarily restricted to the Latin Rite: I’ve encountered it in Eastern and Oriental churches too.

I find it interesting that the bulk of the clergy I’ve seen promote this sort of activity are leftovers from touchy-feely days of the late '60s-early '70s.

 

[benedictgal]

Regarding the question of the homily, the Directory for Children’s Masses doesn’t exactly permit a lay person to “preach”. What parishes have done is to have something like a Children’s Liturgy of the Word where the children are sent off to their own “service” during that portion of the Mass. If the adults are going to “preach”, the priest should write something for them that they will read to the children.

Furthermore, Redemptionis Sacramentum makes it very clear to us that only the deacon, priest and bishop are to preach the homily:

64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146

Regarding the issue raised by the OP, it is important to note that in Redemptionis Sacramentum:

11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.27 On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free rein to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,28 and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,29 but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.30 The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.31

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

These children, young though they be, have the right to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated as the Church intends it to be. What I would suggest to the OP is that she instruct his/her daugher not to go up with the rest of the class, and write a letter to both the prinicpal and the celebrant quoting the authoritative documents of the Holy See. If the school and celebrant persist in this behavior, then, a letter to the bishop is in order.

Tomorrow, along with commemorating the Conversion of St. Paul, the Church in America also celebrates Catholic Schools Week. An integral part of Catholic Schools is to teach its students correct, proper and appropriate worship during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What the OP described is not that at all.

 

[rochejaune]

Thanks all.

The Mass yesterday was a kind of “start” to Catholic Schools Week.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way I could go to this priest about this. We’ve gone to him in the past about other issues, and unless he hears it directly from the Bishop, he will absolutely not change. He honestly believes that he can do whatever he wants. He’s the one who tells a joke at the end of mass, for the pure enjoyment of getting a laugh. The joke has absolutely nothing to do with the liturgy, and most of the time it’s not even a “religious” joke.

I did, however, send an email to the Bishop’s office, most particularly about the First Communion thing.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks all.

The Mass yesterday was a kind of “start” to Catholic Schools Week.

Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way I could go to this priest about this. We’ve gone to him in the past about other issues, and unless he hears it directly from the Bishop, he will absolutely not change. He honestly believes that he can do whatever he wants. He’s the one who tells a joke at the end of mass, for the pure enjoyment of getting a laugh. The joke has absolutely nothing to do with the liturgy, and most of the time it’s not even a “religious” joke.

I did, however, send an email to the Bishop’s office, most particularly about the First Communion thing.

I would suggest sending a formal letter to your bishop and sending it certified, return receipt requested. In this letter, describe what you observed and the relevent, authoritative documents of the Holy See that prohibit such practices.

If, for some reason, you do not get the green certified receipt back (it should be signed) and you do not hear from the bishop, your next course of action would be to write directly to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Include in your letter a copy of the letter that you sent to your bishop, along with a copy of the certified return receipt forms that you filled out. Here is the address to the CDWDS:

Here is his name and address:

His Eminence Antonio Cardinal Canizares Llovera
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Palazzo delle Congregazioni
Piazza Pio XII, 10
00120 CITTÀ DEL VATICANO

Inasmuch as we live in an age of instant, electronic transmission, it is highly recommended that you send your official correspondence via snail mail.

I hope this helps.

 

[puzzleannie]

how do you expect these children to be ready for lifeteen if they have no childhood experience with priest trampling all over the rubrics? Let alone how will they know that at their wedding Mass they can introduce any innovation they wish.

 

[malphono]

how do you expect these children to be ready for lifeteen if they have no childhood experience with priest trampling all over the rubrics? Let alone how will they know that at their wedding Mass they can introduce any innovation they wish.

I like that comment! Almost as good as the two-handed back-scratcher