children at Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter waterdog
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It seems to me that making families feel unwelcome is about the dumbest thing a parish can do. A parish with no young families has a major problem when suddenly all of its parishoners are living at “the home” and there’s an average of twenty people at each Mass. Guess which parish is going to be first on the chopping block when the money gets tight? When my fiance was looking for a job as a music liturgist, I strong discouraged him from taking one of the jobs he was offered because the church was failing. The school building was being rented out to a charter school. They hadn’t had a Baptism in months. Plenty of funerals though. I was pretty sure the job wasn’t going to be around long.
 
I am sure that this has been discussed many times here, but I would like to know how many with small children have been made to feel unwelcome at Mass with their little children, by older parishioners and even the pastor. Mine are mostly grown, but we have recently been finally getting some younger people in our retired community. I saw complaints coming because I know my parish family and I cautioned our new priest at pastoral council that we needed to solve a problem before it happened–that is we needed to be proactive about welcoming all the little ones. Lots of Hispanic families, several Anglo families and four pregnant ladies. Please understand this is a retirement community. God has truly blessed us with this new growth. Unfortunately my warning was not heeded.

And now something truly awful. Our pastor heeded the complaints of some older people and has written in the bulletin, please all families in the back. Be sure to leave if your kids are acting up. And don’t come to Mass if you can’t make them behave. He said some other nicer things, but these negative things are there. Who tells people not to come to Mass? I am deeply offended. How to deal with this?
That is horrible… and I imagine it will be quickly reflected in Mass attendance (particularly if you live somewhere with more than one parish!).

Since I converted we’ve gone to parishes where small children have been treated and welcomed in a variety of different ways. In the first our baby was the only baby and was the “parish baby” where anything she did was cute and I was discouraged from taking her out when she was noisy (I still did! And everyone was really kind). In the second I had an infant and a two year old. My husband would hold the infant at the back when she was rowdy and take her out when she was loud. At that parish the priest was always pleasant but some of the retirees were incredibly rude and would be unpleasant just upon seeing a baby enter the Church. I once was sitting in a rocking chair with a door cracked so I could at least hear Mass, holding my little one and one of the glaring women came in and slammed the door. I asked her if she could leave it cracked so I could at least hear the homily and she glared and said: “No!” I opened it myself and she and her husband and friends spent the rest of Mass glaring at me when we came out before communion.

In our new parish there are plenty of babies. You can hear the soft babble of at least a half dozen (and usually more) at any given time (it’s very quite, just the sounds of sighs, the occasional giggle or squeal or cry of a baby on their way out or a toddler being hushed by a parent). The priest says Mass over the occasional soft sounds and is never thrown off. Babies are joyously welcomed and the priest teaches clearly on contraception and abortion and doesn’t sugar coat topics others would gladly avoid.

…as a parent I would very likely seek another alternative if a parish was hostile to my children… I’m afraid your pastor will see that in coming months… 😦
 
We should start complaining about the mean old bitties. Tell the priests they need to watch Mass on TV from their nursing homes. Sorry, so tired of evil old people. Cynical me thinks it’s the fact they will be gone" soon and may be leaving the Church an endowment.

Happens everywhere- I stand up to them, tell them they lack charity and look in horror at their boorish behavior.
 
That makes me very,very sad.
Not very pro-family if you ask me…
Didn’t Jesus say “Let the little children come to me…?”

This is a good reminder for me to pray for all parishes in reference to these kinds of things…so sad:(

I agree with another persons suggestion of writing the Bishop!!
 
I think there is a difference between fussing and crying. If a kid is fussing a little and/or playing noisily, it doesn’t bother me.

At my parish we have this old lady usher who, if your kid makes the slightest peep, you are forcefully reminded there is a “crying room” and basically she tries to kick you out. I generally avoid the side of the church she is ushering that Sunday. She’s gotten on my nerves so many times I am happy I never said anything to her I’d feel ashamed of later.

That being said, kids that are crying, i.e., sustained loud noises of displeasure need to be removed from the church building. It’s rude to the other parishoners. I have two small children and I would never dream of letting my child cry in church and have removed my kids many times. When I am at mass, it’s pretty much one of my only moments to reflect and meditate on God. A kid having a temper tantrum at Mass can really throw you off.
 
There is fault on both sides. I don’t think most people or priests object to occasional noises from small children during Mass. However, there are parents who seem oblivious to their screaming and misbehaving children and never take them to the cry room that is available at our church. When it was first put in our priest explained it was there, said if your child gets too loud just feel free to take them back until they get it under control then come on back in. Most families do this; there are some who don’t, and I’m guessing these are the same people who let their children misbehave in restaurants and other public events.

It’s not all about little children and families…older people are part of the church too, and should not be disrespected in the way some posters have on this thread.
 
I understand in a way. There is a big difference in the parent who tries to control their child and fails, and the one who sits back and watches the mass while their child runs around the room and never says a word to them at all.
.
For me, you hit the mail on the head. When I see parents trying to keep their kids quiet, I am a lot more tolerant of the noise level. I will even sometimes wave at the kid or play high five with them if it will keep them quiet. But when a parent acts like it is not their job to discipline their kid or even thinks their noise is cute, that is when I have no tolerance

CM
 
Although I am not a parent, I would like to add one qualification.

While I admit that there are parents who do actually do nothing to discipline their children, there are also certain cases in which it is worse for a parent to discipline their child through removing them from Mass. I have heard this from multiple sources (on CAF and elsewhere) that sometimes there are kids who will see that if they misbehave they will be removed from Mass, and so go ahead and misbehave for the sole purpose of being removed from Mass. In these cases it would actually be wrong of the parent to knowingly remove the child from Mass, even though they are making a huge fuss. Instead the correct response is to make sure that the children learn that such misbehavior will not result in the desired response, ie, removal from Mass, but will instead result in some other punishment after Mass is over. Because of the fact that this sometimes happens it is poosible, evven if it is a slim possibility, that the parent syou assume are doing nothing to discipline their child because they do not remove them from the Church are actually taking the best coursse of action by not removing them from the Church. I realize this is not always the case, but how are we to know whether or not it is? We can’t and so must do our best not to judge even those parents who seem to make no effort in disciplining their children at Mass.
 
Although I am not a parent, I would like to add one qualification.

While I admit that there are parents who do actually do nothing to discipline their children, there are also certain cases in which it is worse for a parent to discipline their child through removing them from Mass. I have heard this from multiple sources (on CAF and elsewhere) that sometimes there are kids who will see that if they misbehave they will be removed from Mass, and so go ahead and misbehave for the sole purpose of being removed from Mass. In these cases it would actually be wrong of the parent to knowingly remove the child from Mass, even though they are making a huge fuss. Instead the correct response is to make sure that the children learn that such misbehavior will not result in the desired response, ie, removal from Mass, but will instead result in some other punishment after Mass is over. Because of the fact that this sometimes happens it is poosible, evven if it is a slim possibility, that the parent syou assume are doing nothing to discipline their child because they do not remove them from the Church are actually taking the best coursse of action by not removing them from the Church. I realize this is not always the case, but how are we to know whether or not it is? We can’t and so must do our best not to judge even those parents who seem to make no effort in disciplining their children at Mass.
For us, we make sure that the time spent removed from Mass is much less enjoyable than would be time spent back in the church. I often see parents take kids out and let them run around–yes, they are going to learn to misbehave to gain that freedom. Our older son (4) is sat in a corner with me standing right there until he is quiet and ready to listen to correction. There is also further loss of privileges at home, with the reminder that (tv, computer, treat) was lost because he was doing ___ at Mass. Our younger son (1.5) is simply held in my arms, same as he is inside the church, until he is too is quiet and able to be returned to the church.
 
Crazy! My parish is nothing like that. 😦

When we remodeled the building, instead of making ‘crying rooms’ in the back, we opted for two areas to either side that are just ‘open’ areas. Whenever someone has a crying baby, or kids that can’t sit still, they are more than welcome to take them to these areas, where they run around, color, or whatever.

Most parents, out of respect, will take a crying baby outside - but no one would ever ask them to and I’d be peeved if I caught someone giving them the eye or making them feel uncomfortable. We have a very pro-family atmosphere there, and even though on occasion I might get a little frustrated because I can’t hear the Priest, the sound of babies crying is like music to my ears -** beautiful new souls to fill our Church **❤️

A few weeks back my family and I were the ‘greeters’ for mass, and a lady who had never attended had asked where the crying room was - I was more than happy to explain all of this to her.
 
There are lots of children at mass in my church. I would be pretty disappointed if a bulletin suggested those with kids stay at home in such a manner.
I have seen many families with special needs kids leave the Catholic Church and go to protestant faith communities where their children are openly accepted and welcomed.
I know of a non denominational protestant church that will not allow young children (infants to a certain age) in their main service. They require the babies go to the nursery area or the parents/mom go to a sound proof area where they can watch what is going on in the church on closed circuit TV. This is a very big church too.
 
How to deal with it? The next time you see one of these young families in your parish, walk right up to them, welcome them to your parish and make them feel as welcome as possible.
THIS!
 
I left a parish because of this. If my children aren’t welcome, how am I to believe that I am welcome?
 
There’s such a disconnect here. On the one hand we Catholics strive to be pro-life, pro-family, etc., etc. But on the other hand some of us want to relegate families to the back of the metaphorical bus by publicly shaming families with little ones. Can someone explain to me how that sends a pro-family message?

I remember a Mass when I was a kid. A toddler had escaped from his parents and ran giggling up nave right towards the sanctuary. The priest, who was was mid-homily, came away from the ambo, intercepted the little boy by picking him up, and announced to the congregation, “Looks like this guy wants to be a priest!” before handing the kid back to his dad.

Luna
 
I remember a Mass when I was a kid. A toddler had escaped from his parents and ran giggling up nave right towards the sanctuary. The priest, who was was mid-homily, came away from the ambo, intercepted the little boy by picking him up, and announced to the congregation, “Looks like this guy wants to be a priest!” before handing the kid back to his dad.
That happened in our parish several years ago. The priest got down in a football player-like crouch trying to head the little boy off, but the little boy darted. It was right at the end before the final blessing. Father was laughing so hard he almost couldn’t talk. All he could say is “I can’t say anything to top that.”
 
I think your pastor needs to perhaps take another look in the Bible. Jesus says some nasty things about people who refuse children.

Perhaps the pastor should do a homily about that passage. :mad:

Its bad enough we keep hearing about how unwelcoming Catholics can be to new commers, but now we’re discussing how some parishes are anti-child?

I’ve heard a lot of this lately in real life - and not just from Catholics!!
 
Can you start a campaign for better acoustics in the church? Better speaker system? Wireless headsets for those who are hard of hearing?

I DO understand this is a concern for the elderly, especially in echoing churches. But the solution is NOT to send the children away… clearly that strikes a nerve.

Fix the first problem, don’t make more.
Acoustics in church buildings is a complicated issue: Traditional Church architecture gives very long reverberation times. Traditional church music takes advantage of this, ans does not sound as well in more modern acoustically “dead” spaces.
It can be architecturally inappropriate to deaden down the older church spaces, especially where that would require covering up sacred art on the walls or ceilings.

The most traditional method of ensuring good speech intelegibilty is the very slow delivery that is shown in many characatures on priests and vicars. any one who is reading or speaking in your church needs to be TAUGHT how to read or speak like this. It is the only way to ensure that they can be understood. - all other methods can only add to this technique - not replace it.

Technology that can help:
People who have hearing aids can use Induction Loops when they are installed. This technology uses a very primitive “radio” type signal to broadcast straight from a priest or other speakers microphone to the hearing aid of the listeners. This by-passes the echo and noise in the church. - It requires two things:
  1. there is a microphone system in place or for one to be installed.
  2. the loop must be installed correctly and tested extensively. signs need to be given to the users of the system telling them where the system does work and where it does not work.
For other people (not using hearing aids), the use of a mic and loudspeakers can help in medium to large spaces to raise the sound level of the speakers voices. If the big problem is one of echo this type of system can make it worse if it’s not installed sensitively to the acoustic environment of the building - especially on days when the church is nearly empty. In very long churches it can be necessary to introduce delay circuits into the system so that the sound arriving from the loudspeaker nearest the listeners near the back of the church does no arrive so much sooner than the sound arriving naturally or from the front loudspeakers that the sound from the front sounds like an echo.
This is needed if the distance between the Altar / Pulpet to the furthest pew is greater than 50 Ft (15m). This requires professional guidance from a specialist in this type of echoy environment.

Loud speaker systems areuseful in carrying a speakers voice to the back of a large church. - meaning the speaker does not need to shout to be heard.
They are useful in carrying a voice over noise made by children and other members of the congregation.

Acoustic treatment of the space.- this is a first line treatment in Halls and spaces where music does not matter. also very usefull in spaces where there is no need to protect the sacred art that went into creating a Gothic, Byzantine or other building of sacred architectural merit.

This is achieved by placing soft materials on the ceilings and walls, and possibly carpet on the floors. depending on the tradition, cushions can be used on the seats or pews. (this makes unoccupied pews have less acoustic effect compared to full ones)

The simplest system is to install the type of Grid based ceiling commonly seen in offices. - however if the ceiling is high treatments will be needed on the walls as well. Wall treatments can be wood or metal panels with holes in them and mineral wool behind, or fabric stretched over mineral wool. The fabric option allows (finance permitting) the treatment to be hidden inside tapestry or canvas prints. - however the surface areas required to achieve a good result are large.

The introduction of a lot of acoustic absorption would have the knock-on effect of then requiring a MORE POWERFULL speaker system as thy act on the sound in the room the way that black velvet drapes act on the light in a room - they soak it up.

Cost:
Most parishes need to be self funding. - not reliant on the diocese to fund their upgrades and maintainance .
All of the above concepts cost significant money - especially if they are to be “Done Right”. Installing loudspeakers and induction loops are likely to be affordable to most parishes - but would probably require financial planning and may need to be saved up for. A small system might cost less than $1000 (but never be tempted to buy “cheap” parts - they won’t to the job they’re supposed to). If the building is not big the necessary skills are widely available.
The most expensive option, - by a very long way - is adding useful amounts of acoustic absorption to make a space less echo. - This will run to tens of Thousands of dollars for anything other than a tiny church building (which probably dosn’t need the treatment).
IN the UK where I live (and professionally advise on acoustics in buildings) the cost of ceiling or wall treatments typically range from £20 - £300 per square meter. Installation costs may double that. Design costs (unless you trust a product supplier to do the design right without charging for the design) will probably be in the £1000-£2000 region but could be a lot more.
The cost of treatment to 100m^2 of ceiling in a hall where a mistake had been made during refurbishment (an acoustic ceiling was replaced with painted dry-wall with no thought for the concequences) ran to some £5000
($7700). (to do it properly) This was able to be halved by cutting some corners and sacrificing the final appearance to something that is visibly “Bodged” (using cheap materials in a way that they are not designed) - so it looks like a shoddy DIY job- but it achieves the necessary goal.
 
On the original topic:
At my parish the main entrance door has a notice pinned to it:
“Boistrous babies and turbulent toddlers and there mothers are welcome in the church”
beside it is a sign which reads.
“No Holy Communion in the hand”

The worst criticism to come from the Priest was a request to please not let little ones bang hard objects against the pews during mass - under the heading in the buletin “Dissarming your little Bangers”, with the suggestion to give them soft toys or books.
I have had to discalce my toddler to stop him kicking the pews before.

We dont have a dedicated crying room, but there is a hall with a direct link to the church, and mums & dads will often take their little ones in there. there is a loudspeaker in there for people to continue to follow what’s happening in the main church.

My wife will take our baby back there to B.F. or either of us will take the Toddler if he cant keep quiet.

(to save you the google time: “Discalced” means “Without shoes” as in the Discalced Carmalites)
 
I don’t understand it. Who do they think we’re going to pass the faith down to? Remind your pastor that Jesus said “let the children come to me” I heard one story about a priest who snapped and asked the crying child if he wanted to finish to Mass.

We are blessed with a priest who loves little ones. My two year old ran for the altar and I caught him on the first steps. Our priest loves kids and thought it was funny. He said something about him being called to the priesthood.

And the older folks at Daily Mass love having the little ones there. They encourage me to keep bringing them to Daily Mass. I’ve gotten many compliments even when they are naughty.

Your situation is unfortunately so common nowadays. Ignore the dirty looks and carry on!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top