Children gathered around the alter during consecration

[TimothyH]

We’re not talking about monks or a monastery. We’re talking about a parish in the US, and in the US, this is something the Bishops have spoken out against taking place.

The comment about “The 70’s called” implied that it was an innovation. It may be against the rules but the practice is not an innovation in the universal Church.

I’m not trying to get anyone to agree with me, nor am I even putting out a position for or against anything with which someone could agree. I’m interested in clarity, not agreement and am simply stating a fact.

The practice has a very ancient theological and practical basis in the universal church and is permitted in some places, including monastaries in the US. The OP stated, “I have never seen anything like it before” and did not specify parishes in the US. I was pointing out that the practice exists within Catholic Church, that I have seen it, I have experienced it, and that it is not universally forbidden.

That’s all.

-Tim-

 

[newyorkcatholic]

The comment about “The 70’s called” implied that it was an innovation. It may be against the rules but the practice is not an innovation in the universal Church.

I’m not trying to get anyone to agree with me, nor am I even putting out a position for or against anything with which someone could agree. I’m interested in clarity, not agreement and am simply stating a fact.

The practice has a very ancient theological and practical basis in the universal church and is permitted in some places, including monastaries in the US. The OP stated, “I have never seen anything like it before” and did not specify parishes in the US. I was pointing out that the practice exists within Catholic Church, that I have seen it, I have experienced it, and that it is not universally forbidden.

That’s all.

-Tim-

The idea that we can do ridiculous and irreverant things like gathering the kids up around the altar in a parish church (that until very recently had altar rail and most likely non-free-standing-high-altar) and justify it (not saying you are, but people do) by referring to practices in religious orders or practices from centuries ago … that’s a very 1970s idea.

It’s so selective, and so conveniently for the sake of an agenda. Gathering around the altar as an ancient or religious practice … great! But don’t eat meat like the Cistercians, or follow the older strict medieval Lenten practice, well no thanks!

Stand instead of kneel like the Byzantines, cool … but on certain days fast from all meat, fish, dairy and even oil, like they do? Well we’re not that willing to be influenced by them.

I see through it so easily.

Your comparison to the Cistercians makes it seem like your buying what they are selling … but are they really reading St. Bernard, and trying to live a Cistercian-influenced life? C’mon.

 

[robwar]

It doesn’t matter if it “gets anywhere,” but the bishop is the guardian of the liturgy in his diocese, and he deserves to know when things like this are happening.

having been through the process of complaining to a Bishop, there are steps to follow. It is much better to first contact the church about your concern and his office will tell you that you that. If you just “go to the Bishop” without first going to the priest of the parish you will be turned down. it is not the easy or simple to just “go to the Bishop” about a one time visit to a parish that is not your own. I am speaking from experience.

 

[GWright]

I recently attended a first communion mass and the priest invited the children into the sanctuary to gather around the alter during the consecration. Just wondering this ok to do? I never seen anything like it before.

Our Parish has a weekly family mass / childrens liturgy. ( I would descibe our parish as being traditional, in terms of the style of building, the solemnity of the liturgy, general practices etc).

During the Liturgy of the Word, the children go elsewhere for their own liturgy. I dont really know what they do, but I presume its the message of the readings and gospel pitched in a more accessible way for kids (they probably range in age from 5 - 10/11 years).

The kids then rejoin the main service for the bidding prayers, (which they read), and they help with the offertory as well.

During the consceration, they are allowed to gather around the altar and the priest will explain to them the importance of what he is doing etc. I guess the idea is to make the kids feel invovled and to teach them about parts of the mass.

I personally have no problem with this - there is nothing disrespectful about it. In many ways, I can imagine Jesus sitting with children gathered around his feet - as he is often portrayed - so our childrens mass seems to mimick that idea.

I am usually against any kinds of new initiative etc and I really value tradition, but I think:

• it is good the kids are being included and taught about the mass. As a kid I never felt included at mass and had next to no catechis, from either the church or my Catholic school. This is undoubtedly the main reason why I was always bored at mass and couldnt wait to stop going (which I did, from age 16 - 28/29). So, I am glad (and a little envious lol) that someone cares enough to teach these kids whats is going on.
• I am sure God - and any right thinking Catholic - would rather have children up on the altar learning about the mass, than no children at all*

(*I recall once allowing myself to become annoyed at a baby who was screaming the place down during mass. Suddenly it hit me - and I felt really foolish to realise - imagine there was never a baby crying during mass, or there was never any kid misbehaving. How depressing and future-less would that be?)

Anyway, if our childrens mass is too trendy for some, our 12 noon sung mass more than makes up for it!

 

[superamazingman]

Our Parish has a weekly family mass / childrens liturgy. ( I would descibe our parish as being traditional, in terms of the style of building, the solemnity of the liturgy, general practices etc).

During the Liturgy of the Word, the children go elsewhere for their own liturgy. I dont really know what they do, but I presume its the message of the readings and gospel pitched in a more accessible way for kids (they probably range in age from 5 - 10/11 years).

The kids then rejoin the main service for the bidding prayers, (which they read), and they help with the offertory as well.

During the consceration, they are allowed to gather around the altar and the priest will explain to them the importance of what he is doing etc. I guess the idea is to make the kids feel invovled and to teach them about parts of the mass.

I personally have no problem with this - there is nothing disrespectful about it. In many ways, I can imagine Jesus sitting with children gathered around his feet - as he is often portrayed - so our childrens mass seems to mimick that idea.

But note that Jesus didn’t gather the children around his feet when he taught in the temple. There’s a time and place for everything.

I am usually against any kinds of new initiative etc and I really value tradition, but I think:

• it is good the kids are being included and taught about the mass. As a kid I never felt included at mass and had next to no catechis, from either the church or my Catholic school. This is undoubtedly the main reason why I was always bored at mass and couldnt wait to stop going (which I did, from age 16 - 28/29). So, I am glad (and a little envious lol) that someone cares enough to teach these kids whats is going on.

You don’t need to teach them DURING Mass. When you do that, you are failing to teach them some important points: the immeasurable sanctity of the Mass, and in particular, the altar.

• I am sure God - and any right thinking Catholic - would rather have children up on the altar learning about the mass, than no children at all*

How dare you speak for God? I’d rather think that God would want us to listen to his church (actually, I KNOW he wants us to listen to his church), and his church has said in no uncertain terms that there is to be absolutely no gathering around the altar in any case.

 

[robwar]

How dare you speak for God? I’d rather think that God would want us to listen to his church (actually, I KNOW he wants us to listen to his church), and his church has said in no uncertain terms that there is to be absolutely no gathering around the altar in any case.

GWright was just expressing what happens in his parish with a children’s liturgy. Many churches have them where the children gather up in front before the scripture readings to go to another room or space and have the readings and talk down on their level. There is nothing wrong with this. Now whether you want to argue about children gathering around the alter afterwords is not liturgically correct or not is another. But his point that unfortunately many children end up bored at mass and leave like he did should be addressed and that is what children’s liturgies are trying to do. He wasn’t trying to speak for God.

 

[robwar]

The comment about “The 70’s called” implied that it was an innovation. It may be against the rules but the practice is not an innovation in the universal Church.

I’m not trying to get anyone to agree with me, nor am I even putting out a position for or against anything with which someone could agree. I’m interested in clarity, not agreement and am simply stating a fact.

The practice has a very ancient theological and practical basis in the universal church and is permitted in some places, including monastaries in the US. The OP stated, “I have never seen anything like it before” and did not specify parishes in the US. I was pointing out that the practice exists within Catholic Church, that I have seen it, I have experienced it, and that it is not universally forbidden.

That’s all.

-Tim-

thank-you Tim.
If people think they see liturgical abuse, they need to go the that priest and discuss it face to face. Sending emails or letters will not be as effective and most likely be ignored. We just might find out that what we think is wrong might be ok in some circumstances. Since there seems to be a lot of confusion over what is or is not correct, an attitude of inquiry is better approach than this hard edge your wrong and I’m right approach.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

This link may help explain why it its not permitted:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

This is a very informative link, PatriceA! Thank you for sharing it with us all.
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Please contact the bishop. That’s insanity. There are so many problems with that…

Yes, this all concerns me as well.

 

[wasserfall]

Benedictine and Cistercian monks have been gathering around the altar for many, many centuries. That’s why some of the abbey Churches have large open sancuaries with a freestanding altar, so that the community can gather around.

A suburban parish isn’t a benedictine monastery.
Seems like that’s pretty obvious but

 

[aicirt]

At the children’s Mass, the children are called up by the priest who says a few words to them and then they are led out by the person in charge who holds the Bible above her head as they follow her. I find this latter part contrived. Sorry. Just hits me wrong.

They are then led back after the Gospel. I just don’t understand how much they could have learned in the short time they’ve gone. These kids range in age from six to 12. They’re not babies. If this is all the instruction they receive, then it is a shame. They need a good hour after Mass for religious instruction.

 

[superamazingman]

At the children’s Mass, the children are called up by the priest who says a few words to them and then they are led out by the person in charge who holds the Bible above her head as they follow her. I find this latter part contrived. Sorry. Just hits me wrong.

They are then led back after the Gospel. I just don’t understand how much they could have learned in the short time they’ve gone. These kids range in age from six to 12. They’re not babies. If this is all the instruction they receive, then it is a shame. They need a good hour after Mass for religious instruction.

I agree. I think they should just stay. If the primary goal is instruction, then that is an epic failure of a job. But our primary job at Mass is not instruction. Our primary objective at Mass is our corporate worship of the Father through the Son.

Why can’t they have the bible time during CCD or something?

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

This link may help explain why it its not permitted:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

Thank you, PatriceA, this was very helpful.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

But note that Jesus didn’t gather the children around his feet when he taught in the temple. There’s a time and place for everything.

You don’t need to teach them DURING Mass. When you do that, you are failing to teach them some important points: the immeasurable sanctity of the Mass, and in particular, the altar.]

Exactly. It is better to teach the children at times other than at mass, so when they get to mass they know what is happening and how to behave and learn to respect what is happening.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Please contact the bishop. That’s insanity. There are so many problems with that…

I agree. Contact the bishop.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Our Parish has a weekly family mass / childrens liturgy. ( I would descibe our parish as being traditional, in terms of the style of building, the solemnity of the liturgy, general practices etc).

During the Liturgy of the Word, the children go elsewhere for their own liturgy. I dont really know what they do, but I presume its the message of the readings and gospel pitched in a more accessible way for kids (they probably range in age from 5 - 10/11 years).

The kids then rejoin the main service for the bidding prayers, (which they read), and they help with the offertory as well.

I have seen this before and it is a version of the protestant children’s church. The protestant churches I was in for years used to call the children half way through service and read bible stories to them.

During the consceration, they are allowed to gather around the altar and the priest will explain to them the importance of what he is doing etc. I guess the idea is to make the kids feel invovled and to teach them about parts of the mass.

I personally have no problem with this - there is nothing disrespectful about it. In many ways, I can imagine Jesus sitting with children gathered around his feet - as he is often portrayed - so our childrens mass seems to mimick that idea.

I am usually against any kinds of new initiative etc and I really value tradition, but I think:

• it is good the kids are being included and taught about the mass. As a kid I never felt included at mass and had next to no catechis, from either the church or my Catholic school. This is undoubtedly the main reason why I was always bored at mass and couldnt wait to stop going (which I did, from age 16 - 28/29). So, I am glad (and a little envious lol) that someone cares enough to teach these kids whats is going on.
• I am sure God - and any right thinking Catholic - would rather have children up on the altar learning about the mass, than no children at all*

I have seen some great Catholic kids brought up by moms who taught their kids what was going on right from the pew they were in. There was no need to take the kids up to the altar. Many years of history shows this also.

It is wrong and being included in mass does not mean we have to be up at the altar.

 

[pjbshark]

I observed this practice today at a church I attended while travelling. The liturgy was clearly geared toward the children, as they took on many of the roles during Mass (lector, cantor, choir, etc.). The priest delivered an excellent homily on Christian unity, using manipulatives that the children could understand. However, in addition to the children standing around the altar there were three things that bothered me: the second reading was omitted, the Creed was omitted and the Eucharistic Prayer was not one of the forms found in my Missal. I suspect it was a special from for Masses with Children, but it clearly hadn’t been rewritted for the new Roman Missal because the words of consecration were of the “old” form (“eat it” instead of “eat of it”, etc.). It was all very nice but it wasn’t proper. My wife said she really liked it but I felt that the priest could have included the children without blurring the lines between everyone’s proper role at the Mass. One of the children started to feel ill during the consecration and sat down for a moment before returning to her pew with her parents. Of course, all the other children started to focus on her instead of what they were there to observe.

I didn’t think it was right for me, a guest, to comment to the celebrant about what I observed. Was I wrong?

 

[Phemie]

See, I consider 50 a small number. My daughter’s First Communion class had close to 200.

But I see you’re in the Pittsburgh Diocese, so am I, and I can guess what parish you might have been at. One or two immediately jump to mind. I would also bet the parish that asked the children to come up to the altar also have a Lifeteen Mass where they still practice that inappropriate activity, even though Lifeteen has asked them to no longer do that.

For our parish, 50 would be huge. We usually have 12-15. There was one time, when the sacraments hadn’t been celebrated in a few years due to changes in the school system,when our Confirmation/First Communion class numbered in the 70s but that was a major exception. Back when we still had Catholic Schools it might have numbered 30.