Children in sanctuary during Our Father

[catholickat]

Last Sunday I went to a parish I haven’t gone to in awhile. During mass, the priest had the children come up to the sanctuary and hold hands during the Our Father. I hadn’t seen this before; is this permissible in the mass?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Last Sunday I went to a parish I haven’t gone to in awhile. During mass, the priest had the children come up to the sanctuary and hold hands during the Our Father. I hadn’t seen this before; is this permissible in the mass?

No.

It has been made clear by repeated vatican decrees this is not allowed.

 

[tseleehw]

No, this should not be done. Unless there is a good reason for someone to be in the sanctuary during mass (being a server or EMHC for example), they shouldn’t be there, regardless of what the Priest allows. Having kids enter the sanctuary to hold hands during the Our Father is not a good reason.

 

[catholickat]

Are there any documents that say this isn’t allowed that I can find?

Also, now that I remember, he added parts of his own to the Eucharistic prayer as well. Should I do something about this?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Are there any documents that say this isn’t allowed that I can find?

Also, now that I remember, he added parts of his own to the Eucharistic prayer as well. Should I do something about this?

Call the Bishop’s office. They will figure out what to do. You don’t need to document and cite data to be concerned.

 

[RandomAlias]

Also, now that I remember, he added parts of his own to the Eucharistic prayer as well. Should I do something about this?

There are several different Eucharistic Prayers. Are you sure he wasn’t using one of those?

As for what you should do, first and foremost do it with charity, which includes not rushing to judgement, and not gossiping about it within your community. If anything, perhaps you could speak privately with the priest about it.

 

[JamalChristophr]

_… In 1981 the Congregation for Divine Worship addressed this question in its official journal Notitiae. In an official interpretation of no. 101 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) it responded as follows: _
Query: At the presentation of gifts at a Mass with congregation, persons (lay or religious) bring to the altar the bread and wine which are to be consecrated. These gifts are received by the priest celebrant. All those participating in the Mass accompany this group procession in which the gifts are brought forward. They then stand around the altar until communion time. Is this procedure in conformity with the spirit of the law and of the Roman Missal?

Reply: Assuredly, the Eucharistic celebration is the act of the entire community, carried out by all the members of the liturgical assembly. Nevertheless, everyone must have and also must observe his or her own place and proper role: “In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or layperson, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.” (SC art. 29). During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. [Notitiae 17 (1981) 61]

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

 

[Hereiam]

DO NOT CALL THE BISHOPS OFFICE YET…first address the matter with the priest and/or pastor!

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

DO NOT CALL THE BISHOPS OFFICE YET…first address the matter with the priest and/or pastor!

What? No. This isn’t a matter that should be taken lightly or could be explained away. It is a major act of disobedience and against the GRIM.

 

[Mi_Rose]

You don’t call the governor if you think your traffic ticket is unjust. You go through the system and the Church’s system is to talk to the priest first. If that doesn’t work then it is time to go to the bishop.

 

[Augustinian]

What? No. This isn’t a matter that should be taken lightly or could be explained away. It is a major act of disobedience and against the GRIM.

Why wouldn’t you discuss it with the priest involved first? He might just be less informed than he should be should be. Getting people in trouble, especially with something that impinges upon his livelihood, is something not to
be done that quickly.

At the very least, you should give the priest a heads up that you are a stoolie and will be snitching to the bishop on him. He’s going to find out anyhow, when the bishop’s office gives him a call on the issue.

 

[Hereiam]

You need to consider each act in light of the impact on the Mass; liciticy and validity…if validity is in question the bishop may need to know immediately, if the act is merely illicit, the bishop may not need be involved if AFTER it is brought to the priest’s or pastor’s attention, it continues.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

What? No. This isn’t a matter that should be taken lightly or could be explained away. It is a major act of disobedience and against the GRIM.

Why wouldn’t you discuss it with the priest involved first? He might just be less informed than he should be should be. Getting people in trouble, especially with something that impinges upon his livelihood, is something not to
be done that quickly.

At the very least, you should give the priest a heads up that you are a stoolie and will be snitching to the bishop on him. He’s going to find out anyhow, when the bishop’s office gives him a call on the issue.

You are quite frankly, being incredibly nasty. This is a pretty basic thing—respect for the sanctuary.

Even if the priest does respond to a parishoner, there is a greater issue of his lack of knowlege surrounding the basic rules of Mass.

There are some things that yes, you should go to the Priest first. But this is not one of them.

 

[Augustinian]

There are some things that yes, you should go to the Priest first. But this is not one of them.

I’m sure you will do what you will do. I can only speak on what I would do.

But I can’t see this as such an emergency that it would be worth the bad blood with the priest to go behind his back. At least leaving him a message as to who you are calling and the reason why,
just seems like the polite thing to do. He’s going to find out, you know, when someone from the bishop’s office rings him up to ask him to respond to Mr. Xanthippe’s complaint.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

There are some things that yes, you should go to the Priest first. But this is not one of them.

I’m sure you will do what you will do. I can only speak on what I would do.

But I can’t see this as such an emergency that it would be worth the bad blood with the priest to go behind his back. At least leaving him a message as to who you are calling and the reason why,
just seems like the polite thing to do. He’s going to find out, you know, when someone from the bishop’s office rings him up to ask him to respond to Mr. Xanthippe’s complaint.

Xanthippe is a female name.

I don’t think it’s “bad blood” at all.

I guess you do you. I’ll do me.

I’ve chosen, in my own life, to not escalate things to the Bishop–and the Priest didn’t care when I spoke to him. (The main issue was that he was placing non-church fundraisers–cancer research, etc and selling non religious items in the church proper…not even in the vestibule…right in the back pews) I simply decided to walk away from that parish. Lo and behold others–many others–had the same issue. After arguing with Fr. many also left. A few contacted the bishop. The priest still does what he feels like…even after the Bishop told him to knock it off. But again, I didn’t bother with the Bishop because I knew from his attitude it would make no difference.

I have escalated things to the bishop without telling the priest, like when a priest at my parish wrote a “hit piece” against Francis (and denying church teachings) and it was published in a couple of the small town weekly circular stuffers. There was no use talking to him about it. He knew what he had done. He was asked to step down from diocean ministry and went back to his order to retire.

Quite frankly, given the climate today in the church, I really don’t care what a priest thinks of me.

 

[JamalChristophr]

I considered starting a thread on why priests get away with x,y, and z. (even though they probably have gotten a number of complaints by parishoners to the bishop.)

I suppose it comes down to whether or not the priest has any inclination to change action x and whether the bishop simply must tolerate the priest doing things as he wants versus the bishop removing the priest from his ministry where problem x is occurring.

 

[godisgood77]

What? No. This isn’t a matter that should be taken lightly or could be explained away. It is a major act of disobedience and against the GRIM.

Would you have the same response to a priest who adds the Hail Mary to the prayers of the faithful?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

What? No. This isn’t a matter that should be taken lightly or could be explained away. It is a major act of disobedience and against the GRIM.

Would you have the same response to a priest who adds the Hail Mary to the prayers of the faithful?

No. Adding/subtracting prayers is the priest’s sin alone. Talk to the guy.

Teaching children to enter the sanctuary during Mass–and encouraging parents to go against what they may know–is involving others in their sin. It is a far more serious offense.

 

[godisgood77]

No. Adding/subtracting prayers is the priest’s sin alone. Talk to the guy.

Teaching children to enter the sanctuary during Mass–and encouraging parents to go against what they may know–is involving others in their sin. It is a far more serious offense.

Actually having the entire parish participate in the Hail Mary during Mass is not the priests ‘sin’ alone. Let’s leave the question of whether or not either of these things is a sin aside for now…The priest changing or altering the mass is the question… having kids move to the front or adding a devotional prayer to suit his own devotional disposition are about the same level of gravity in my opinion.

So… would you answer the same way?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

No. Adding/subtracting prayers is the priest’s sin alone. Talk to the guy.

Teaching children to enter the sanctuary during Mass–and encouraging parents to go against what they may know–is involving others in their sin. It is a far more serious offense.

Actually having the entire parish participate in the Hail Mary during Mass is not the priests ‘sin’ alone. Let’s leave the question of whether or not either of these things is a sin aside for now…The priest changing or altering the mass is the question. having kids move to the front or adding a devotional prayer to suit his own devotional disposition are about the same level of gravity in my opinion.

So… would you answer the same way?

They are not simply “moving to the front” that would be different. They are in the sancutuary.

The priest’s leading the people in a Hail Mary can be a misunderstanding of its placement during Mass and what is/isn’t allowed. For instance, a priest MAY say the Hail Mary during the Homily if he so chooses. He may also say it during the final blessing. If he adds it in at a time that is inappropriate, he could easily be corrected to move it to a spot when it is allowed.

However, the GRIM makes it VERY clear, that only the Priest and his appointed ministers (EOMC, altar servers, lectors) are to enter the sanctuary during Mass. It is NEVER allowable to have laity with no purpose in the sanctuary, nevermind during Mass. There is no time he can move it to to make it an appropriate action. None.

Not only that, but the entering of the sanctuary during Mass has been publically addressed at the Vatican level many, many times of late.