Children on altar and deacon cleaning vessels?

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gardenswithkids

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We explored a different parish yesterday that offers a very affordable Catholic education. We noticed several different things at Mass that I’m not quite sure are in keeping with the proper format. I don’t want send my children to a Parish school that makes up teachings, so I’d appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

The Mass celebrated the first communion of several children, so perhaps that allowed exceptions. The first communion children stood on the altar with the priest during the liturgy of the Eucharist. He sent the children from the altar to extend the sign of peace to the congregation, then brought them back up. He gave them a host to hold while said the words of consecration. After Communion, the priest sat down whilde the deacon cleansed the vessels.

All and all, it seemed like a nice Mass and I think the priest tried to make it a special day for those who recieved their first Communion. But I’m sensitive to Catholics who change the Church practices on their own and teach false teachings. This parish’s school would educate all of my children for less than it costs to educate one at the school my oldests attends. Yet if it’s not going to really teach the Catholic faith, I’m not interested. So, can these things be legitamately included as part of a first communion Mass?
 
Why don’t you post the name and location of the church/school? I’m sure there will be someone here who knows about it and can address your concerns.
 
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geezerbob:
Why don’t you post the name and location of the church/school? I’m sure there will be someone here who knows about it and can address your concerns.
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It’s in such a small parish I doubt that anyone would know it. And for the sake of my family’s privacy since I post personal stories sometimes, I prefer not to identify my location. I know families that attend there and plan to pursue their opinions, but sometimes personal involvement and convenience can blind people to problems in their parish. I wanted an objective answer if these practices are legitimate or not. But thank you for the suggestion.
 
The part with the children is an abuse, a huge abuse! This needs to be brought to the bishop’s attention. If he does nothing, then it needs to be brought to the attention of Cardinal Arinze’s congregation at the Holy See.

I think, and it’s only thinking, mind you, that the deacon can, in fact, clean the sacred vessels.
 
It is indeed the deacon’s role to purify the sacred vessels after communion.
 
Thank you. I’ve never noticed a deacon to do it before, but I’m glad you clarified that. As far as the children on the altar, thank you too. That was what I thought, but I was hoping maybe there could be a legitimate exception for first Communion Mass. If anyone knows if exceptions like that can be allowed, please post and let me know where it’s written.

We have a tour set up with the principal, but this gives us some serious questions to ask her (and ourselves) before we enroll our children. I was really hoping this would be a nice Catholic parish where we could find a good, affordable Catholic education. Maybe you get what you pay for.
 
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gardenswithkids:
The first communion children stood on the altar with the priest during the liturgy of the Eucharist. He sent the children from the altar to extend the sign of peace to the congregation, then brought them back up. He gave them a host to hold while said the words of consecration. After Communion, the priest sat down whilde the deacon cleansed the vessels.
?
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you cannot possible mean the children were physically on the altar, you must mean they gathered in the sanctuary around the altar – a practice specifically forbidden in the GIRM and RS. I did attend a baptism in the 80s where the infant actually was placed upon the altar at one point, an exceedingly grave abuse that was publicly censured by the bishop when he heard about it (the next day).

It is absolutely forbidden for anyone except the priest to hold the host during the consecration. the deacon may clean the vessels, he is ordained, but even he may not appear to be participating in the consecration in any way. Please ask your pastor to clarify what you saw, and if your description is accurate give a complete report to your bishop in writing, with dates, times, specifics. He cannot act on a verbal or unspecific complaint.
 
You are correct puzzelannie. I used the wrong preposition. The children were around the altar, not on it. And for the sake of my pastor’s reputation, this wasn’t my parish but a neighboring parish.
 
I, too, thought,“Holy Mercy, they were STANDING on the
ALTAR !?!?!?”
 
The Mass celebrated the first communion of several children, so perhaps that allowed exceptions.

That has no effect on how the Consecration takes place, there are no exceptions to the Rubrics.

The first communion children stood on the altar with the priest during the liturgy of the Eucharist. He sent the children from the altar to extend the sign of peace to the congregation, then brought them back up.

No one is to be in the sanctuary area during the Eucharistic prayer. All other Ministers, Deacons, Altar Servers, are to kneel with the rest of the faithful during the Consecration. The only people allowed to stand in the Sanctuary during the Consecration are the main celebrant and any con-celebrants.

He gave them a host to hold while said the words of consecration. After Communion, the priest sat down whilde the deacon cleansed the vessels.

No one should be holding any host except the main celebrant.
I would question the validity of the Consecration of those hosts, since they were not on the Corporal or in the priests hands. If the children consummed these as their First Holy Communion. It is very possible that they did not actually receive their First Holy Communion.
 
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gardenswithkids:
The Mass celebrated the first communion of several children, so perhaps that allowed exceptions. The first communion children stood on the altar with the priest during the liturgy of the Eucharist.
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Another way you could have said it was that the kids were standing in the sanctuary. The sanctuary is where the altar and tabernacle is located and where the priest celebrates the mass.
 
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puzzleannie:
the deacon may clean the vessels, he is ordained, but even he may not appear to be participating in the consecration in any way.
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The deacon may purify the vessels because he has installed in the office of acolyte. It is one of the minor orders you receive on your way to becoming a priest or deacon. Any acolyte may purify the vessels during mass.

God Bless,
Matt
 
It is proper for a deacon to clean the vessels but it is not proper for the children to be grouped around the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer or to be holding a host during it. If I were you, I’d run, not walk, from this parish school. If you can’t affort a different school, home school and prepare your children for the sacraments yourself. You should also send your bishop of note describing this abuse. Grandma
 
I should note that there are some acceptable modifications for special Masses with children. However, nothing specifically offerred here as having occured is part of that. Though, it has not been uncommon for some time that priests will invite kids up around the altar during these Masses (even if they really shouldn’t). The having the kids hold a host for the consecration thing sounds really out there (that’s a new one for me, and I’ve seen almost everything). If that is what happenned, it’s undoubtedly a serious abuse. What I have seen more regularly (and possibly something akin to what actually happened at the Mass you describe?) is for priests to distribute communion to Eucharistic Ministers (or in this case the children) before receiving himself. That is still kind of out of order (all the more so if the EMHCs are showing the host in imitation of the priest at the Ecce Agnus Dei), but in some ways less objectionable than having anybody other than the main celebrant priest holding a host for the actual consecration.
 
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gardenswithkids:
He gave them a host to hold while said the words of consecration.
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Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.[18]** This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church…**

[8.]…Yet the Eucharist “is too great a gift to tolerate ambiguity or depreciation”…

11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.[27]** On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved**… Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage… In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist…[30] The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful…[31]

[18.] Christ’s faithful have the right that ecclesiastical authority should fully and efficaciously regulate the Sacred Liturgy lest it should ever seem to be “anyone’s private property, whether of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated”[38].

[31.] In keeping with the solemn promises that they have made in the rite of Sacred Ordination and renewed each year in the Mass of the Chrism, **let Priests celebrate “devoutly and faithfully the mysteries of Christ…**according to the tradition of the Church, especially in the Eucharistic Sacrifice…[71] They ought not to detract from the profound meaning of their own ministry by corrupting the liturgical celebration either through alteration or omission, or through arbitrary additions.[72] as St. Ambrose said, “It is not in herself . . . but in us that the Church is injured. Let us take care so that our own failure may not cause injury to the Church”.[73] Let the Church of God not be injured, then, by Priests who have… dedicated themselves to the ministry. Indeed, under the Bishop’s authority let them faithfully seek to prevent others as well from committing this type of distortion.

This abuse needs to be reported to your bishop in accordance with Redemptionis Sacramentum.
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No one is to be in the sanctuary area during the Eucharistic prayer. All other Ministers, Deacons, Altar Servers, are to kneel with the rest of the faithful during the Consecration. The only people allowed to stand in the Sanctuary during the Consecration are the main celebrant and any con-celebrants.
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Actually, the rubrics for the deacon say he will “normally” kneel. In my diocese the bishop, taking into consideration the fact that most of us deacons could kneel, but not get up again without help, has granted us permission to stand. This is a case where the intent of the rubrics is clear (to distinguish between the priest and the deacon) but it was written with young transitional deacons in mind and not us old fogies who are also deacons.

And, as an aside, it’s an interesting way to make the distinction since both vestments and position/posture (no hands extended) make it clear that the deacon is not consecrating. In my Eastern Catholic Church the deacon extends his orarion (stole) and points toward the bread or the wine during the consecration. The priest also calls him a “fellow celebrant” in the dialog before the consecration.

Deacon Ed
 
Br. Rich SFO:
No one should be holding any host except the main celebrant. I would question the validity of the Consecration of those hosts, since they were not on the Corporal or in the priests hands. If the children consummed these as their First Holy Communion. It is very possible that they did not actually receive their First Holy Communion.
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That was the first thing that came to my mind, as well. How horrifying to think that these children may not have truly received the Most Blessed Sacrament!
 
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msproule:
That was the first thing that came to my mind, as well. How horrifying to think that these children may not have truly received the Most Blessed Sacrament!
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Since the Church teaches that what the priest intends to confect is, indeed, confected (assuming the proper words and setting) then the children did, indeed, receive the Blessed Sacrament. This is still no excuse for such a flagrant violation of the rubrics.

There is, however, another possiblity. Some priests will consecrate the host and then give them to the children while saying the prayer “This is the Lamb of God…” – after the consecration. I didn’t get the impression this had happened, but…

Deacon Ed
 
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chicago:
I should note that there are some acceptable modifications for special Masses with children. However, nothing specifically offerred here as having occured is part of that. Though, it has not been uncommon for some time that priests will invite kids up around the altar during these Masses (even if they really shouldn’t). The having the kids hold a host for the consecration thing sounds really out there (that’s a new one for me, and I’ve seen almost everything). If that is what happenned, it’s undoubtedly a serious abuse. What I have seen more regularly (and possibly something akin to what actually happened at the Mass you describe?) is for priests to distribute communion to Eucharistic Ministers (or in this case the children) before receiving himself. That is still kind of out of order (all the more so if the EMHCs are showing the host in imitation of the priest at the Ecce Agnus Dei), but in some ways less objectionable than having anybody other than the main celebrant priest holding a host for the actual consecration.
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However childrens Mass should not be a “converted” regular Parish Mass, let alone the main parish Mass. Childrens Masses for the school children before or during school a “special” Mass at 2PM on Saturday for First Holy Communion, and so on, is a more correct use of “childrens Mass”. A regular parish Mass should not be hijacked for this purpose.
 
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gardenswithkids:
We explored a different parish yesterday that offers a very affordable Catholic education. We noticed several different things at Mass that I’m not quite sure are in keeping with the proper format. I don’t want send my children to a Parish school that makes up teachings, so I’d appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut.

The Mass celebrated the first communion of several children, so perhaps that allowed exceptions. The first communion children stood on the altar with the priest during the liturgy of the Eucharist. He sent the children from the altar to extend the sign of peace to the congregation, then brought them back up. He gave them a host to hold while said the words of consecration. After Communion, the priest sat down whilde the deacon cleansed the vessels.

All and all, it seemed like a nice Mass and I think the priest tried to make it a special day for those who recieved their first Communion. But I’m sensitive to Catholics who change the Church practices on their own and teach false teachings. This parish’s school would educate all of my children for less than it costs to educate one at the school my oldests attends. Yet if it’s not going to really teach the Catholic faith, I’m not interested. So, can these things be legitamately included as part of a first communion Mass?
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Run! Do not look back!😃

Seriously, my old parish did this and when I got to my new Deep Catholic Parish, our Blessed Pastor told me that having children on the altar is a horrible abuse.

May 14th is my daughter’s First Holy Communion.
It will be with all the bells and whistles, but not a single child will be on the Altar.

Also, I can tell you that unteaching what one of the Protestant/Catholic parishes teach is a royal pain. I had to do that with a St. Joseph’s Cathechism at the old parish.

And I love you signature line! Spot on!
 
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