Children & Original Sin

[Charles_Darwin]

And when someday (we pray) that you come to believe, you will see that it doesn’t “get rid of the notion”…it reinforces it, it makes it mysteriously understandable.

For He loved us enough to give us a freedom to choose Him or not…which is what makes Love possible…it only exists if it is freely chosen.

The “obtuse” part is based on your lack of understanding about why the first man and woman would choose against Him, and hence how that freely chosen rejection was imparted to us, their descendants.

In a nut shell, Adam and Eve were Graced by God…made in His image. Their rejection DISgraced them. And we were subsequently DISgraced by our natural association to them. Don’t stop there though. The beautiful part is that He loves us still…an unending love…so much so that He made it possible for all future generations, all of us, to return to Grace, and be with Him forever…which is where we were created to be in the first place.

Neither obtuse nor disturbing when the whole story is played out.

Well adam and eve did not exist. However lets say i grant you they did. Why on earth should i be punished for their crime. Do you think we should start jailing children for the crimes of their parents? I bet you don’t.

More so exactly how are we free to choose? I can’t be bothered with the typing here is a vid that shows how absurd gods notion of freedom of choice is. youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9IvCpiHxA

Choice is NOT FREE when one option results in punishment, that addition of punishment (hell) means we DON’T have a FREE choice.

 

[Karen1960]

A question though, if Original sin is transmitted through the human race generally and not from the parents, that leaves 2 questions:

1. Why did Mary need to be Immaculate?
2. How can the Human nature of Christ be not sinful, then?

Well, you kind of answered your own question
Just reverse it.

 

[Luke_K]

How about looking at it like this: Grace, which is imparted at Baptism and eliminates Original Sin, is not natural to humans. By its very definition it is something extra, the Divine Life added on top of our human nature. What is passed on from the parents is human nature, not Divine Nature, and therefore Grace is not imparted (and again, it is Grace that eliminates Original Sin).

Had Adam and Eve not sinned, Grace would be passed along by Divine Providence, not by humans themselves, but as a kind of “conception gift” from God. Since they sinned, however, we are left with only unGraced human nature at conception, and God has instituted a “second birth” of Baptism to aquire the gift that was originally intended to be passed along at conception. It would still have been Grace, a Divine and not human gift, but the timing of its passing on would have been much different.

So, to recap, Adam and Eve (and all their descendents) can only pass on what is natural to them; Grace (Divine Life) is simply not mankind’s to give. So parents who conceive a child give the child what is their own, and that is human nature which happens to be fallen since the sin of Adam and Eve. Even if the parents are given Grace through Baptism, that Grace is not theirs to pass along to their children, but still only God’s since it is His Divine Life and it is above and beyond our human natures. This also allows God to reinforce the notion that Grace is indeed Divine Life, and not merely human life, and that we are saved only by Him and not by ourselves.

To use a worldly example, if I have a house and my friend has loaned me all of the furniture, I can sell the house but the furniture does not go to the purchaser. The house is mine to give, but the furniture remains my friend’s to give or take back as he wishes.

Peace and God bless!

Excellent explanation. You covered it all.

Well adam and eve did not exist. However lets say i grant you they did. Why on earth should i be punished for their crime. Do you think we should start jailing children for the crimes of their parents? I bet you don’t.

More so exactly how are we free to choose? I can’t be bothered with the typing here is a vid that shows how absurd gods notion of freedom of choice is. youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9IvCpiHxA

Choice is NOT FREE when one option results in punishment, that addition of punishment (hell) means we DON’T have a FREE choice.

Haha funny video.

But your conclusion is absurd. The choice is still there, it’s just that it would be irrational for you to choose anything other than God.

Your point should be that you weren’t given the option of not having to choose.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Excellent explanation. You covered it all.

Haha funny video.

But your conclusion is absurd. The choice is still there, it’s just that it would be irrational for you to choose anything other than God.

Your point should be that you weren’t given the option of not having to choose.

The point is there is no freedom of choice where religion is concerned

 

[SteveGC]

Well adam and eve did not exist. However lets say i grant you they did. Why on earth should i be punished for their crime. Do you think we should start jailing children for the crimes of their parents? I bet you don’t.

Original sin is not a punishment. It is a condition. Original sin isn’t a condemnation to hell…it is a reflection of the choice God’s first creation made on their own. They chose to give in to temptation, and the false promise that they could be like Him…that they in fact could BE Him. This is our condition…not our punishment. The first people chose not to walk with God, and God let them choose what they wanted. If they didn’t want Him, then they didn’t want His help any longer…they didn’t want His Grace. In essence, they proclaimed that they would go it alone. So God obligingly took His Grace back…and so their decision, and subsequent disgrace, affected the entire human race that would follow from them as our first parents.

More so exactly how are we free to choose? I can’t be bothered with the typing here is a vid that shows how absurd gods notion of freedom of choice is. youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9IvCpiHxA

Choice is NOT FREE when one option results in punishment, that addition of punishment (hell) means we DON’T have a FREE choice.

Choice is free. Just because you don’t like the consequences doesn’t mean you’re not at liberty to choose one way or the other. Your preference or proclivity toward the consequences of one choice over the other has no bearing on the freedom you’re given to make that choice. If you feel compelled to choose one way over the other, it’s not because you’re not free to choose…it’s because you are naturally inclined to want to seek happiness as opposed to sorrow. God didn’t create the sorrow, nor the punishment. Sorrow (and punishment) are the natural affects of choosing against Joy and Peace…choosing against God. Life without God is, by it’s very nature, ultimately sorrowful and painful. That’s simply the essence of God. He is Love, literally.

Frankly, the arguments made in the video (as humorous as it was) completely miss this point…even though they state the point themselves very clearly.

Here’s another way to look at it…whether you like it or not…or believe it or not…right now you are free to choose…and you don’t realize it yet, but by denying God’s existence, His Truth, you are choosing against Him…and that choice you’re making is yours to FREELY make…He allows you to choose whatever you want, and you are freely doing it…and you think that that choice you’re making (against Him) allows you to escape the notion that there are consequences for that choice. But what’s happening is that God is allowing you to choose against Him…although He beckons for your return, he allows you to turn your back forever. Ultimately, if that is your “final answer” to Him…He will then give you what you ultimately wanted…eternal life without Him.

And I don’t know what that eternity will be like for you…but I do know one thing: i know that you will forever hate Him…but surprisingly, you’ll realize that you don’t eternally hate him because you think He put you where you are (indeed you will quickly realize that you put yourself where you are)…no, you will hate Him because you hate Him now…and you died hating Him, and to die hating Him only naturally transforms into eternal hatred for Him. That’s just the way it works.

Someone once said, no one who ends up in hell is surprised at their arrival there. It’s a free choice they made, and stuck to until their last breath.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Choice is free. Just because you don’t like the consequences doesn’t mean you’re not at liberty to choose one way or the other. Your preference or proclivity toward the consequences of one choice over the other has no bearing on the freedom you’re given to make that choice. If you feel compelled to choose one way over the other, it’s not because you’re not free to choose…it’s because you are naturally inclined to want to seek happiness as opposed to sorrow. God didn’t create the sorrow, nor the punishment. Sorrow (and punishment) are the natural affects of choosing against Joy and Peace…choosing against God. Life without God is, by it’s very nature, ultimately sorrowful and painful. That’s simply the essence of God. He is Love, literally.

Frankly, the arguments made in the video (as humorous as it was) completely miss this point…even though they state the point themselves very clearly.

Here’s another way to look at it…whether you like it or not…or believe it or not…right now you are free to choose…and you don’t realize it yet, but by denying God’s existence, His Truth, you are choosing against Him…and that choice you’re making is yours to FREELY make…He allows you to choose whatever you want, and you are freely doing it…and you think that that choice you’re making (against Him) allows you to escape the notion that there are consequences for that choice. But what’s happening is that God is allowing you to choose against Him…although He beckons for your return, he allows you to turn your back forever. Ultimately, if that is your “final answer” to Him…He will then give you what you ultimately wanted…eternal life without Him.

The is fundamentally incorrect. The whole point of having freedom of choice is the choice is without consequences. When you start IMPOSING consequences then the choice is not free. NOTE the word imposing.

Now i don’t know what your concept of hell is, for many believe it is not and eternity of fire and brimstone but is in fact just separation from their god. If that is the case then i would i agree that the choice is free. However if you believe it is fire and brimstone version then the choice is anything but free.

Oh and if that is your definition of love, then it is nothing like any meaning i know. Your god is not a god of love, but a god of vengeance and hate. The two cannot go hand in hand. No version of love i know would involve murdering and raping women and children.

And I don’t know what that eternity will be like for you…but I do know one thing: i know that you will forever hate Him…but surprisingly, you’ll realize that you don’t eternally hate him because you think He put you where you are (indeed you will quickly realize that you put yourself where you are)…no, you will hate Him because you hate Him now…and you died hating Him, and to die hating Him only naturally transforms into eternal hatred for Him. That’s just the way it works.

Someone once said, no one who ends up in hell is surprised at their arrival there. It’s a free choice they made, and stuck to until their last breath.

Very poor argument, how on earth could i hate that which i don’t believe. Do you believe in Santa? Is the reason you don’t believe in santa because you hate him? See how silly you sound? Secondly you know nothing about me, i don’t hate ANYONE. So if you want to discuss the matter lets deal with the points at hand, not argue strawmen.

 

[SteveGC]

The is fundamentally incorrect. The whole point of having freedom of choice is the choice is without consequences. When you start IMPOSING consequences then the choice is not free. NOTE the word imposing.

Ok…let’s set that theory in motion and see how it holds up…

Is your going 75 mph in a 55 mph speed zone a free choice?
Is your drinking to excess to the extent that you get violently ill a free choice?
Is your choice of words to say to someone that later come back to be significantly hurtful to them a free choice?
Is your decision to stay up late to watch a favorite movie, which results in you being late for work the next day a free choice?

I’m not sure where you learned the concept of “free”, but I think you’ve got it mixed up with the concept of “no consequences”. “Free” doesn’t mean you have no ill consequences for either of the choices. What kind of world do you live in where your options carry with them no consequences, whether good or bad? Under your notion of “free”, you must live in a world of constant imprisonment…for nothing you choose to do carries no consequences. That’s life. And the idea that it’s different because the ill consequence is not “imposed” on you doesn’t hold water. The law of the land imposes all kinds of things on your choices…yet would you argue that you are not therefore free to make those choices? That’s silly. Sometimes it’s human nature that imposes the consequences…like getting ill after a drinking romp the night before. Sometimes it’s other humans that impose the consequence…like your boss who gives you demerits for showing up late after you freely chose to stay up late…or like your acquaintence whose feelings are hurt by something you freely chose to say. The only thing that’s bugging you is the fact that we’re talking about an eternal choice, with eternal consequences.

Now i don’t know what your concept of hell is, for many believe it is not and eternity of fire and brimstone but is in fact just separation from their god. If that is the case then i would i agree that the choice is free. However if you believe it is fire and brimstone version then the choice is anything but free.

Doesn’t matter what my concept of hell is, except for the fact that hell is very real, and is a state of eternal separation from God. And see? You’re validating my notion here…you equate “free” with “no pain, no suffering”. But you’re ok to call it “free” if everything’s hunky-dorry for you after you make your choice. Again, this defies all logic, and the reality that all choices have consequences, yet the choices remain yours to freely choose.

Oh and if that is your definition of love, then it is nothing like any meaning i know. Your god is not a god of love, but a god of vengeance and hate. The two cannot go hand in hand. No version of love i know would involve murdering and raping women and children.

Seems to me you equate God’s love with either a gross misunderstanding of what His love is, or with the sinful behavior of man…probably both. Murder and rape, and all other sinful despicable behaviors, occur because the perpetrators choose against God…choose against Love. There would be no murder and rape if people fully chose God…I guarantee it. How is God a God of vengeance and hate? Who taught you about God?

Very poor argument, how on earth could i hate that which i don’t believe. Do you believe in Santa? Is the reason you don’t believe in santa because you hate him? See how silly you sound? Secondly you know nothing about me, i don’t hate ANYONE. So if you want to discuss the matter lets deal with the points at hand, not argue strawmen.

I’m saying that you hate the idea of God right now, hence your disbelief…and that will inevitably transform into a very real hatred of Him personally when you are gone…it will be an eternal hatred of Him…you will realize that He was real all along, and that in some way, you hated Him (or the concept of Him) all along. That’s what I was trying to say.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Ok…let’s set that theory in motion and see how it holds up…

Is your going 75 mph in a 55 mph speed zone a free choice?

No, it is not a free choice it has been deemed unacceptable by society and is against the law. In other words the choice has been MADE FOR YOU by society. YOU ARE NOT FREE TO SPEED, you may not get caught but if you do get caught you will be prosecuted.

Is your drinking to excess to the extent that you get violently ill a free choice?

Yes, this is not against the law and there is no punishment for it. You body may not react well to the amount of alcohol in your system though.

Is your choice of words to say to someone that later come back to be significantly hurtful to them a free choice?

That depends on the words, some are against the law, some are not.

Is your decision to stay up late to watch a favorite movie, which results in you being late for work the next day a free choice?

Yes, though your work may take action if you are late however you will not be punished for this course of action, you may however have to find another job. I really hope you are not going to try and equate being threatened with eternal torture for no good reason with getting sack from work for being constantly late.

I’m not sure where you learned the concept of “free”, but I think you’ve got it mixed up with the concept of “no consequences”. “Free” doesn’t mean you have no ill consequences for either of the choices. What kind of world do you live in where your options carry with them no consequences, whether good or bad? Under your notion of “free”, you must live in a world of constant imprisonment…for nothing you choose to do carries no consequences. That’s life. And the idea that it’s different because the ill consequence is not “imposed” on you doesn’t hold water. The law of the land imposes all kinds of things on your choices…yet would you argue that you are not therefore free to make those choices? That’s silly. Sometimes it’s human nature that imposes the consequences…like getting ill after a drinking romp the night before. Sometimes it’s other humans that impose the consequence…like your boss who gives you demerits for showing up late after you freely chose to stay up late…or like your acquaintence whose feelings are hurt by something you freely chose to say. The only thing that’s bugging you is the fact that we’re talking about an eternal choice, with eternal consequences.

Consequences and punishment are not they same, i should have said punishment that is what i meant, does that clear things up?

Doesn’t matter what my concept of hell is, except for the fact that hell is very real, and is a state of eternal separation from God. And see? You’re validating my notion here…you equate “free” with “no pain, no suffering”. But you’re ok to call it “free” if everything’s hunky-dorry for you after you make your choice. Again, this defies all logic, and the reality that all choices have consequences, yet the choices remain yours to freely choose.

I’m glad there is not a single shred of evidence to support you claims. Oh and i am already separate from your god, and things are just peachy.

Seems to me you equate God’s love with either a gross misunderstanding of what His love is, or with the sinful behavior of man…probably both. Murder and rape, and all other sinful despicable behaviors, occur because the perpetrators choose against God…choose against Love. There would be no murder and rape if people fully chose God…I guarantee it. How is God a God of vengeance and hate? Who taught you about God?

I’m saying that you hate the idea of God right now, hence your disbelief…and that will inevitably transform into a very real hatred of Him personally when you are gone…it will be an eternal hatred of Him…you will realize that He was real all along, and that in some way, you hated Him (or the concept of Him) all along. That’s what I was trying to say.

Ezekiel 9:5-7

5 And to the others he said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. 6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out.” So they went out and struck in the city.

God of love???

 

[SteveGC]

No, it is not a free choice it has been deemed unacceptable by society and is against the law. In other words the choice has been MADE FOR YOU by society. YOU ARE NOT FREE TO SPEED, you may not get caught but if you do get caught you will be prosecuted.

Yes, this is not against the law and there is no punishment for it. You body may not react well to the amount of alcohol in your system though.

That depends on the words, some are against the law, some are not.

Yes, though your work may take action if you are late however you will not be punished for this course of action, you may however have to find another job. I really hope you are not going to try and equate being threatened with eternal torture for no good reason with getting sack from work for being constantly late.

Consequences and punishment are not they same, i should have said punishment that is what i meant, does that clear things up?

Look, call it punishment, call it consequence…it doesn’t matter. Your ticket for driving 20 mph over the limit is also a punishment - your monetary fee and spiked insurance premium are punishments to your ability to spend that money on otherwise more gratifying things…a person’s painful hangover is the body’s punishment to your nervous system for deciding to abuse that body the night before. I think the terms you’re looking to use here are torture, torment, suffering, and/or pain. But the common denominator to all these terms is simply discomfort or displeasure…which is no different from the examples above, except in the length of time…the earthly ones are finite in length, the afterlife one is infinite. So there is not difference…it’s all about suffering, with only a difference in time. Problem is, the way you view it is that God causes it all, and perhaps somehow Himself gets pleasure out of watching you suffer it. But that’s nowhere near the truth. People who end up in hell do it to themselves…and suffer and experience displeasure simply due to the fact that God isn’t there. He’s not torturing anyone…He’s simply nowhere to be found and cannot bring you peace. That reality is still based on your free choice. Unfortunately, because you choose to not believe in God, you also cannot see that the true life and happiness for which we were created can be found only in God’s presence. So belief in God facilitates this understanding…but I can see that you have a roadblock to belief in God if you believe that there cannot be a God who tortures people who don’t come to Him…which, again, is a grossly erroneous view of Him.

I’m glad there is not a single shred of evidence to support you claims. Oh and i am already separate from your god, and things are just peachy.

For now, sure. Perhaps they are. For eternity? Well, that’s another matter altogether. Helps to believe in eternity though, but regardless…the ruler of this world (who is decidedly not God, but is indeed a spirit) is an expert…pure genius actually…at helping you reject God and find pleasure in this world, which is passing away. He has a plan for your life too…and so far, he’s got you where he wants you…where he wants everyone. So it does not surprise me in the least that you find pleasure in your disbelief. Pleasure is not the same as Joy, though.

Ezekiel 9:5-7

5 And to the others he said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity. 6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out.” So they went out and struck in the city.

God of love???

Ezekiel is an Old Testament writing of God’s fatherly relationship with His people under the Old Covenant. Do you have a clear understanding of what precisely was going on in ancient Israel during this time? Do you know of the gross abominations against God that were unfolding throughout many many years? Do you know of the warnings to the wicked which preceded the vision in Ezekiel 9? Appears you are succumbing to a typical erroneous methodology of understanding God…picking out this verse or that verse, applying modern context to it, and defining God based on that completely unscholarly and frankly, lazy, exegesis.

I just want to try to impress upon you how much God actually loves you beyond your wildest concept of that…He does not torture anyone, and does not delight in the consequences people bring upon themselves by rejecting Him. Not in the slightest. It grieves Him more than you will ever know…at least more than you will know while you are stuck in your disbelief.

 

[yablabo]

Well, since my Question hasn’t been answered from the “Ask an Apologist” Forums I thought I’d ask here:

Theoretically, if 2 baptized Catholics (which have the stain of Original sin removed, consequently) marry and get a child, wouldn’t that child be sinless?

Some (name removed by moderator)ut would be really appreciated.

• Pax.

The Council of Trent

Session 5: Decree concerning original sin:

III. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,-- which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, – is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the One Mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath reconciled us to God in His own Blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the Sacrament of Baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

IV. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers’ wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining life everlasting,-- whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of Baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, – let him be anathema.

I hope this helps.

– Nicole

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Look, call it punishment, call it consequence…it doesn’t matter. Your ticket for driving 20 mph over the limit is also a punishment - your monetary fee and spiked insurance premium are punishments to your ability to spend that money on otherwise more gratifying things…a person’s painful hangover is the body’s punishment to your nervous system for deciding to abuse that body the night before. I think the terms you’re looking to use here are torture, torment, suffering, and/or pain. But the common denominator to all these terms is simply discomfort or displeasure…which is no different from the examples above, except in the length of time…the earthly ones are finite in length, the afterlife one is infinite. So there is not difference…it’s all about suffering, with only a difference in time. Problem is, the way you view it is that God causes it all, and perhaps somehow Himself gets pleasure out of watching you suffer it. But that’s nowhere near the truth. People who end up in hell do it to themselves…and suffer and experience displeasure simply due to the fact that God isn’t there. He’s not torturing anyone…He’s simply nowhere to be found and cannot bring you peace. That reality is still based on your free choice. Unfortunately, because you choose to not believe in God, you also cannot see that the true life and happiness for which we were created can be found only in God’s presence. So belief in God facilitates this understanding…but I can see that you have a roadblock to belief in God if you believe that there cannot be a God who tortures people who don’t come to Him…which, again, is a grossly erroneous view of Him.

You have skipped my point, which is one is NOT free to speed, rape, murder. Society has made this choice for you, you are NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT. If you do so you will be punished. So you are NOT free to do these things.

For now, sure. Perhaps they are. For eternity? Well, that’s another matter altogether. Helps to believe in eternity though, but regardless…the ruler of this world (who is decidedly not God, but is indeed a spirit) is an expert…pure genius actually…at helping you reject God and find pleasure in this world, which is passing away. He has a plan for your life too…and so far, he’s got you where he wants you…where he wants everyone. So it does not surprise me in the least that you find pleasure in your disbelief. Pleasure is not the same as Joy, though.

Great story, now what about that evidence. I don’t “reject” anything, i just don’t accept unfounded myths.

Ezekiel is an Old Testament writing of God’s fatherly relationship with His people under the Old Covenant. Do you have a clear understanding of what precisely was going on in ancient Israel during this time? Do you know of the gross abominations against God that were unfolding throughout many many years? Do you know of the warnings to the wicked which preceded the vision in Ezekiel 9? Appears you are succumbing to a typical erroneous methodology of understanding God…picking out this verse or that verse, applying modern context to it, and defining God based on that completely unscholarly and frankly, lazy, exegesis.

I just want to try to impress upon you how much God actually loves you beyond your wildest concept of that…He does not torture anyone, and does not delight in the consequences people bring upon themselves by rejecting Him. Not in the slightest. It grieves Him more than you will ever know…at least more than you will know while you are stuck in your disbelief.

Ah i love the context and that was the old testament position. So killing babies is ok as long as its in the old testament, do you not think an all powerful “loving” creature could find a better way of dealing with things than slaughtering children? I can think of better ways to deal with it.

 

[SteveGC]

You have skipped my point, which is one is NOT free to speed, rape, murder. Society has made this choice for you, you are NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT. If you do so you will be punished. So you are NOT free to do these things.

forgive me, but you make no sense. Is a free choice only a free choice if it doesn’t land you in jail?? Ask any convict if his choice to rob the bank was a free choice for him to make…he will invariably tell you that HE COULD HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO, BUT HE CHOSE TO! He was free to choose either way. No one put him under duress to make the choice he made. It was free. Just because you’re “not allowed” to do something doesn’t negate the fact that you freely can choose to do it, or not. You’re confusing “free to choose” with “desire to choose knowing the consequences”. I’ll grant you, not many convicts would desire to choose to rob the bank if they knew they’d be in jail…but no one forces them to make that choice. That’s what free will is…it’s being able to choose whatever you want without force. That’s the gift of God…nothing more should be read into it than that. The gift is that He doesn’t force your hand either way. That’s the only way true love can exist…if we freely choose Him. That’s why free will had to be part of His design for us. If you don’t like the outcome of not choosing Him, then you have 2 options…seek a way to not reject the One that created you…or choose to not believe that He even exists. But don’t try to claim that God’s gifted free will for His creation professed by Christianity is not what He has revealed to us that it is…it is freedom to choose…free from duress. That is the teaching.

Furthermore, your funny video presents Christianity in a way it is never meant to be presented. They present it like Jesus is equivalent to the tax collector, when in actuality he is the antithesis of that…he is the savior. He doesn’t go around like the tax collector, bearing the bad news that tax time is here, but then a false good news that they can choose to not pay if they face the dire consequences. No…that’s a fallacy. Christ is the GOOD NEWS. That’s what comes first. That’s the message of life. That’s what He comes bringing to your door. And there is NO bad news He brings. There’s just free will…complete freedom to choose the direction of your life (your eternal life) given the reality of the world…that God exists, loves you, and wants you to be with Him forever. You create your own Bad News if you ultimately choose to reject that reality. God doesn’t come bearing any bad news.

Great story, now what about that evidence. I don’t “reject” anything, i just don’t accept unfounded myths.

There’s actually a substantial amount of natural evidence all around us, every day, that fully supports the reality of a Supreme Creator. I would agree that you don’t reject God inasmuch as that means that you realize He exists, and yet reject Him. But you do reject the existence of God, which is the next best thing as far as Satan is concerned. He’d love it if you knew God and still rejected Him, but to deny His existence is a good starting point…and gives him plenty to work with to get you where he wants you. This is not to say that if you continue in your disbelief that you will be in Hell, it just means that your disbelief provides quite a substantial amount of material for him to draw you even further and further into full rejection. Might I suggest a book?

Ah i love the context and that was the old testament position. So killing babies is ok as long as its in the old testament, do you not think an all powerful “loving” creature could find a better way of dealing with things than slaughtering children? I can think of better ways to deal with it.

Ah, I love the fact that you don’t understand the context, and therefore still think it’s all about God killing babies. Is this the way you formulate all your beliefs in this world? Sit back on your couch, don’t bother to research a thing, and then make judgments about things based on whatever whim pleases you? That’s clearly how you deal with Christianity. Still curious as to how you’ve come to know what Christianity is, to the extent that you know it is false. How do you suppose you could’ve “dealt with it better”, when you clearly don’t even know what IT is? Seems to me one would need to be quite intimately familiar with the thing that they claim they could do better than someone else.

Anyway, you brought up scripture…I’m just trying to make sure you don’t abuse it. If you’re going to quote it in defense of your “proof” that God doesn’t exist, atleast quote it in context, demonstrate you understand the full underlying and historic story of salvation, and then make a case for your claim that the God of Christianity is a God of hate, and therefore cannot be real.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

forgive me, but you make no sense. Is a free choice only a free choice if it doesn’t land you in jail?? Ask any convict if his choice to rob the bank was a free choice for him to make…he will invariably tell you that HE COULD HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO, BUT HE CHOSE TO! He was free to choose either way. No one put him under duress to make the choice he made. It was free. Just because you’re “not allowed” to do something doesn’t negate the fact that you freely can choose to do it, or not. You’re confusing “free to choose” with “desire to choose knowing the consequences”. I’ll grant you, not many convicts would desire to choose to rob the bank if they knew they’d be in jail…but no one forces them to make that choice. That’s what free will is…it’s being able to choose whatever you want without force. That’s the gift of God…nothing more should be read into it than that. The gift is that He doesn’t force your hand either way. That’s the only way true love can exist…if we freely choose Him. That’s why free will had to be part of His design for us. If you don’t like the outcome of not choosing Him, then you have 2 options…seek a way to not reject the One that created you…or choose to not believe that He even exists. But don’t try to claim that God’s gifted free will for His creation professed by Christianity is not what He has revealed to us that it is…it is freedom to choose…free from duress. That is the teaching.

Furthermore, your funny video presents Christianity in a way it is never meant to be presented. They present it like Jesus is equivalent to the tax collector, when in actuality he is the antithesis of that…he is the savior. He doesn’t go around like the tax collector, bearing the bad news that tax time is here, but then a false good news that they can choose to not pay if they face the dire consequences. No…that’s a fallacy. Christ is the GOOD NEWS. That’s what comes first. That’s the message of life. That’s what He comes bringing to your door. And there is NO bad news He brings. There’s just free will…complete freedom to choose the direction of your life (your eternal life) given the reality of the world…that God exists, loves you, and wants you to be with Him forever. You create your own Bad News if you ultimately choose to reject that reality. God doesn’t come bearing any bad news.

There’s actually a substantial amount of natural evidence all around us, every day, that fully supports the reality of a Supreme Creator. I would agree that you don’t reject God inasmuch as that means that you realize He exists, and yet reject Him. But you do reject the existence of God, which is the next best thing as far as Satan is concerned. He’d love it if you knew God and still rejected Him, but to deny His existence is a good starting point…and gives him plenty to work with to get you where he wants you. This is not to say that if you continue in your disbelief that you will be in Hell, it just means that your disbelief provides quite a substantial amount of material for him to draw you even further and further into full rejection. Might I suggest a book?

Ah, I love the fact that you don’t understand the context, and therefore still think it’s all about God killing babies. Is this the way you formulate all your beliefs in this world? Sit back on your couch, don’t bother to research a thing, and then make judgments about things based on whatever whim pleases you? That’s clearly how you deal with Christianity. Still curious as to how you’ve come to know what Christianity is, to the extent that you know it is false. How do you suppose you could’ve “dealt with it better”, when you clearly don’t even know what IT is? Seems to me one would need to be quite intimately familiar with the thing that they claim they could do better than someone else.

Anyway, you brought up scripture…I’m just trying to make sure you don’t abuse it. If you’re going to quote it in defense of your “proof” that God doesn’t exist, atleast quote it in context, demonstrate you understand the full underlying and historic story of salvation, and then make a case for your claim that the God of Christianity is a God of hate, and therefore cannot be real.

Dear me, one is NOT free to murder, this is part and parcel of living in a cooperative society. Society has deemed murder UNACCEPTABLE and if you do murder someone you will be punished. Religion has deemed non-belief unacceptable and has installed a similar punishment. Its not rocket science…

As for killing babies you still have not answered the question, do you not think and all powerful all loving god could find a better way of dealing with things than murdering babies? Oh and you right, when it comes to killing babies I DON’T UNDERSTAND!

 

[SteveGC]

Dear me, one is NOT free to murder, this is part and parcel of living in a cooperative society.
As for killing babies you still have not answered the question, do you not think and all powerful all loving god could find a better way of dealing with things than murdering babies? Oh and you right, when it comes to killing babies I DON’T UNDERSTAND!

Yet again, you demonstrate a complete lack of even the most rudimentary sense of what “free will” is. You keep trying to equate it with consequence, and it’s not related to that at all. It’s related to truth, love, and the lack of coercion in choosing for or against that truth. That’s free will. You’ve completely redefined what free will is, erroneously fusing it with consequence, and now you’re arguing against your own invention.

And one certainly is free to murder, my friend, even in your sense of “free”. You think everyone who has murdered is locked up in prison? You think that in their mind they don’t think they freely chose to do it? And again, it doesn’t matter that it’s against the law, that they could be locked up in prison…that’s a different kind of lack of freedom. That’s the secular “freedom” you’re trying to equate with God’s gift of free will. Not the same at all. One last time, it’s not about consequence, it’s about the original CHOICE.

What’s interesting is that you’re arguing about something you don’t even believe in to begin with. You don’t believe in the existence of God, so why do you even bother to argue against God’s gift of free will? Are you proving to yourself that God doesn’t exist by proving to yourself that He hates people, kills babies, and is only revealing Himself to us to threaten us with eternal hellfire? What a warped sense of who God is.
Charles Darwin:

Society has deemed murder UNACCEPTABLE and if you do murder someone you will be punished. Religion has deemed non-belief unacceptable and has installed a similar punishment. Its not rocket science…

By “religion” I assume you mean “God”? If so, non-belief is completely acceptable to Him. And if you’d like to never believe, then the consequence will have nothing to do with God. It will simply be the absence of Him, which is exactly what you wanted. I don’t understand why you have a hard time with that. You get exactly whatever you want, now and for eternity. That’s God’s gift of free will, right there in front of you. You don’t want Him? You don’t have to live with Him…ever. What that experience is like is a whole other matter, but God doesn’t put you there. Look, you were created…the only reason you’re here in the world to be able to refute your Creator’s existence is BECAUSE He created you. The truth is what it is. You want to try to create your own reality of the world to avoid that truth, and see God as a mythical being full of vengeance and violence, live your existence based on only what you are given concrete evidence for, and then debate the Christian perspective of God from the perspective of that made-up reality you subscribe to. It’s absolute nonsense.

Take my advice, get yourself that book…read it and anything else you can get your hands on that speaks to people like yourself that have so far to go to just begin to understand who God is, and then when you get the clearer picture, then decide what you want to believe. What an absolute shame it would be for you to ultimately reject something (Someone) that you remained completely ignorant of, that had you taken the time to genuinely know, you never would’ve rejected.

 

[Charles_Darwin]

Yet again, you demonstrate a complete lack of even the most rudimentary sense of what “free will” is. You keep trying to equate it with consequence, and it’s not related to that at all. It’s related to truth, love, and the lack of coercion in choosing for or against that truth. That’s free will. You’ve completely redefined what free will is, erroneously fusing it with consequence, and now you’re arguing against your own invention.

And one certainly is free to murder, my friend, even in your sense of “free”. You think everyone who has murdered is locked up in prison? You think that in their mind they don’t think they freely chose to do it? And again, it doesn’t matter that it’s against the law, that they could be locked up in prison…that’s a different kind of lack of freedom. That’s the secular “freedom” you’re trying to equate with God’s gift of free will. Not the same at all. One last time, it’s not about consequence, it’s about the original CHOICE.

Ah but i am not taking about free will, i am talking about freedom of choice..

thefreedictionary.com/freedom

1. The condition of being free of restraints.

and hell like jail is most defiantly a constraint.

And just because people get away with murder does not mean society deems it acceptable .

What’s interesting is that you’re arguing about something you don’t even believe in to begin with. You don’t believe in the existence of God, so why do you even bother to argue against God’s gift of free will? Are you proving to yourself that God doesn’t exist by proving to yourself that He hates people, kills babies, and is only revealing Himself to us to threaten us with eternal hellfire? What a warped sense of who God is.
By “religion” I assume you mean “God”? If so, non-belief is completely acceptable to Him. And if you’d like to never believe, then the consequence will have nothing to do with God. It will simply be the absence of Him, which is exactly what you wanted. I don’t understand why you have a hard time with that. You get exactly whatever you want, now and for eternity. That’s God’s gift of free will, right there in front of you. You don’t want Him? You don’t have to live with Him…ever. What that experience is like is a whole other matter, but God doesn’t put you there. Look, you were created…the only reason you’re here in the world to be able to refute your Creator’s existence is BECAUSE He created you. The truth is what it is. You want to try to create your own reality of the world to avoid that truth, and see God as a mythical being full of vengeance and violence, live your existence based on only what you are given concrete evidence for, and then debate the Christian perspective of God from the perspective of that made-up reality you subscribe to. It’s absolute nonsense.

Take my advice, get yourself that book…read it and anything else you can get your hands on that speaks to people like yourself that have so far to go to just begin to understand who God is, and then when you get the clearer picture, then decide what you want to believe. What an absolute shame it would be for you to ultimately reject something (Someone) that you remained completely ignorant of, that had you taken the time to genuinely know, you never would’ve rejected.

I like talking about religion, it is an extremely important part of the development of humanity, i also wonder deeply why people who are rational in most walks of life’s hold such irrational beliefs.

Also i was not created by a god, that i can assure you. I was “created” by my parents if anything. However i understand exactly what my origins are, so we need not discuss that. Also as i have said i have no issue with hell if it is just separation from god, i would want nothing to do with that creature anyway. The issue i have is with the fire and brimstone version of hell. For that is no freedom of CHOICE.

Now again can you answer my question…

**do you not think and all powerful all loving god could find a better way of dealing with things than murdering babies? **

Oh and i meant “religion” yours isn’t the only one, or hadn’t you noticed. Alla is going to be raging with you when you die.

 

[grannymh]

But the common understanding is wrong.

---

Our humanity is not self-caused. Our lives are “contingent.” We depend on things outside of ourselves for our continuing survival. When we apprehend this with our God-given intellect-and-free-will, we are panicky “selfishness machines.”

This apprehending is reinforced by six trillion cells in our bodies, every one of which asks the same question: “When do we eat?”

This is what our parents gave birth to – sin machines, with no reason to do anything but sin.

.

Pardon me, post 8. In my humble opinion, humans are not sin machines, with no reason to do anything but sin. Furthermore, I don’t consider my children sin machines with no reason to do anything but sin.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are created by God to be with Him eternally.

 

[SteveGC]

Ah but i am not taking about free will, i am talking about freedom of choice..

thefreedictionary.com/freedom

1. The condition of being free of restraints.

and hell like jail is most defiantly a constraint.

And just because people get away with murder does not mean society deems it acceptable

Still stuck in the land of confusion I see. Free will IS being free of restraints. You insist on over-defining what free will, or freedom of choice, is. You think the consequence, or lack thereof, determines the freedom. It does not. The capacity to choose determines the freedom. You are working backward, and backwardly defining freedom of choice (and free will). You are looking at the after-effect of freely choosing, and then claiming it’s not a free choice. I’m done trying to explain it to you. All I can say is that you hate the consequence of not choosing God, you also hate choosing God, and so all you can do is argue that you’re stuck, and so there’s no freedom, and there’s no God (which renders your original “freedom” argument completely absurd). Pity you have fight against yourself like this.

I like talking about religion, it is an extremely important part of the development of humanity, i also wonder deeply why people who are rational in most walks of life’s hold such irrational beliefs.

Did you think that when the ultimate truth that surrounds the existence of this universe, the existence of YOU, is eventually revealed to you, that it’s going to be a concept that is completely rational to you? Irrational is a subjective term, by the way. Most people on this earth don’t find religion so irrational that they do as you do, avoid seeking the truth at all costs, and let the “rational” world they know slide slowly by, relying only on solid evidence for what they believe in. I don’t mean that as crudely as it sounds. I just mean that if you are “deeply in wonderment” about why people cling to faith…and that’s most people on this earth, then maybe you should deeply consider that some of us are on to something which points toward truth.

Also i was not created by a god, that i can assure you. I was “created” by my parents if anything. However i understand exactly what my origins are, so we need not discuss that.

We all seek our Inventor, our Creator. It’s a natural, inevitable force within us. You’re no exception. I have no doubt you are here because of that very concept.

Also as i have said i have no issue with hell if it is just separation from god, i would want nothing to do with that creature anyway. The issue i have is with the fire and brimstone version of hell.

So, you believe in some sort of existence after death? And, just so I’m understanding your position. You feel that because you exist, you have the right to comfort and peace for as long as you believe you will consciously be aware of your existence? Where did you gather that this was something that is owed to you? Or do you just hope for it, without really knowing what the truth of the origins of your existence is?

Now again can you answer my question…

**do you not think and all powerful all loving god could find a better way of dealing with things than murdering babies? **

Does my opinion on this really matter to you? You express this question as if challenging me on my faith in a God that would “murder babies”. As if you’re demonstrating to me that God is a myth because He “murders babies”. Or are you struggling with your own desire to believe, and this is what holds you back? Either way, I choose to not attempt to explain to you the dimensions of God’s relationship and discipline with His creation down through the ages, for I know you will make a mockery of it. But I will answer your question in this way…I do not ignorantly reduce God down to “baby murderer” based on a few verses of Scripture read in a vacuum…and I think God, who is all powerful, and is the very essence of Love, “deals with things” in the only way they could be dealt with. I trust in that fully. But I also understand much more fully than you. Not because I’m smarter, but because I have faith. If your knee-jerk reaction to that is to still envision God as a “baby-murderer”, then I think this speaks volumes of either your gullability to the whims of atheism, utter immaturity in engaging in useful dialogue, and/or a completely apathetic approach to acquiring genuine knowledge of Christianity.

Oh and i meant “religion” yours isn’t the only one, or hadn’t you noticed. Alla is going to be raging with you when you die.

Raging with me? What does that mean? What do you believe happens the moment after you die?