Chinese Dragons and makeshift altar to the dead in Mass time

  • Thread starter Thread starter WilT
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
WilT said:
During a Vietnamese Mass, at the start, two large colored paper dragons came down the isles and out the doors. They were beautifully made paper dragons but I wasn’t sure if it was ok to have them during mass time. The incense altar to the dead was more concerning. The priests would remove their caps and light up incense to the dead as their customs. I understand preserving some cultural traditions but I feel that perhaps it went to far. I could be wrong.🤷
Click to expand...
Before I comment, may I ask if the paper dragons looked like this?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Also, was this Vietnamese mass in Vietnam or in the US, by any chance?
 
27lw I have to agree with you on that one. The example given wasn’t made clear and the Mass was done in sunny California
 
Thanks for the video links. That was some intense lion dancing and accompanying clanging. Maybe it’s me – but I still can’t understand why this happens in church, before Mass. I think it’s great that everyone has their culture and traditions, but I genuinely don’t understand why the lion dance happens in church, before Mass. I probably just need to have it explained from a new perspective.
 
:hypno:Wow, what a Crosier! It reminds me of the staff Moses took with him to meet with the Pharaoh. He through on the floor and it turned into a snake. :egyptian:
 
27lw said:
Wow. You mean all my ancestors are in heaven, guaranteed?
I don’t believe your statement is correct. I suspect that the Church would not go so far as to say that ancestor veneration (sometimes called “ancestor worship”) is the same thing as honoring the communion of saints.
Also, during All Souls’ Day, aren’t we supposed to be praying for the poor souls in purgatory? Not just venerating them?
Click to expand...
I didn’t say that they are all in heaven. We merely lack the guarantee provided by canonization that they are able to hear those prayers. I said that if we believe them to be in Heaven (or in Purgatory and therefore definitely Heaven-bound), we can pray to them. That is how saints are canonized, after all. FIRST, someone has to pray to a person, let’s say Venerable Rev. Michael J. McGivney. THEN, miracles occur and the cause for canonization moves forward.

Now if the Church would not say that ancestor veneration is the same thing as honoring the Communion of Saints, then what would she say it is, precisely, and how would she justify allowing it for certain cultures? And why not? Are you denying that my lovely grandparents from the Midwestern USA are members of the Communion of Saints? Who are you to say they’re in Hell?
 
Elizium23 said:
I didn’t say that they are all in heaven. We merely lack the guarantee provided by canonization that they are able to hear those prayers. I said that if we believe them to be in Heaven (or in Purgatory and therefore definitely Heaven-bound), we can pray to them. That is how saints are canonized, after all. FIRST, someone has to pray to a person, let’s say Venerable Rev. Michael J. McGivney. THEN, miracles occur and the cause for canonization moves forward.

Now if the Church would not say that ancestor veneration is the same thing as honoring the Communion of Saints, then what would she say it is, precisely, and how would she justify allowing it for certain cultures? And why not? Are you denying that my lovely grandparents from the Midwestern USA are members of the Communion of Saints? Who are you to say they’re in Hell?
Click to expand...
Hmmm. I’d like to address your points:
  1. You didn’t say that all my ancestors are in heaven. True. I think the attitude taken by the Church (and especially expressed in All Souls’ Day), is that we should pray for our family members, and not assume that they are in heaven. Because they might need our prayers.
  2. As for ancestor veneration, I think that is tricky. In the old Catholic Encyclopedia, there is an article on “Sacrifice” which talks about Chinese ancestor veneration and ends this way “The popular religion with its innumerable images, which have their special temples, is undisguised idolatry.” I found a very interesting article called “Culture and liturgy: ancestor veneration as a test case”. Here is a short part of the introduction: “in countries and cultures permeated by Confucianism, such as China, Japan, Korea and Vietnam, ancestor veneration (or ancestor worship or the cult of ancestors) has been and continues to be a vexing and contentious issue, with immense ramifications for evangelization and Church life, as the so-called “Chinese Rites Controversy” has made painfully clear.”
    The rest of the article is here: mccdpl.org/ministries/ancestor-veneration.
    I think that shows that ancestor worship is a long way from equivalent to the Catholic concept of the communion of saints.
  3. Where did I say anything about your grandparents? I’m sure you know better than I do. 🙂 I believe it is the very clear teaching of the Church that we should pray for our deceased family members, and not assume anything.
  4. On All Souls’ Day, don’t you pray for the deceased people in you parish and family? Not just venerate them?
 
DIRECTORY ON POPULAR PIETY AND THE LITURGY

This is a rich document that I will not quote here, but I encourage you to explore its guidelines on things like the cult of saints and beati as well as suffrage for the dead.

The Catholic Encyclopedia was published in 1913, before the 1917 Code of Canon Law, and before the 1939 instruction, known as “Plane compertum est”, approved by Pope Pius XII.

Singapore Liturgy Commission Bulletin #7
  1. On July 18-19, 1964, seven Chinese bishops in Taiwan, had an official meeting with Mgr. Joseph Caprio, Pronuncio, and unanimously agreed to issue the following instructions on Ancestors’ Veneration:
Click to expand...
In remembrance of the deceased, the setting up of a tablet (bearing his name without the addition of superstitious inscriptions) by the family members is no longer forbidden.
It is allowed to bow or prostrate in front of the ancestor tablet, photograph or coffin.
Offering of fruits or food in front of the ancestor tablet or at the grave is no longer forbidden.
Burning of joss papers for the deceased is forbidden, because of its superstitious character.
6. Based on these instructions, liturgical texts, known as the “Proposed Catholic Ancestor Memorial Liturgy for Church and Family use” were issued by the Chinese Bishops’ Conference in Taipei, Taiwan, on December 29, 1974. These liturgical texts combined Catholic tradition with ancestor veneration.
Click to expand...
These texts are probably available in Singapore in Chinese. A proper English translation of them should be made, for a wider use in our churches…
Click to expand...
Remembrance, emulation, imagination: The Chinese and Chinese American Catholic ancestor memorial service

So as you can see, ancestor worship has come a long way since the heyday of the Chinese Rites Controversy. Pope Pius XII had much to do with China.

Mary, Chinese Ancestor Veneration, and the Communion of Saints

All Souls Day is when we pray *for *the souls of the deceased. All Saints Day, however, is when we pray *to *the whole company of angels and saints, even the non-canonized saints. I like to think that my grandparents are around for the benefits of the latter day as well as the former.

Are Canonized Saints the Only People in Heaven?
 
I think we are mostly on the same page, Elizium.
I think the difficulty lies in the term “ancestor veneration”, and the definition that people are using. Certain parts of ancestor veneration are acceptable, if used carefully, but it would appear that the whole kit and caboodle of ancestor veneration is not 100% compatible with the Church.
This still doesn’t explain to me why the lions lead off the liturgy, or why they are in the church building to begin with. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top