Chinese economy

[Tenzin]

I am not a communist. However, I am impressed with the Chinese economy. They refer to it as “socialist market economy” while experts call it “state capitalism”. Does the Church have an issue with this sort of economy? It may have been the propaganda cause I watched a series of documentaries on the Chinese economy. I am well aware of its state atheism and social repression’s. I am focused on just their economy. I think politics hinders economic planning especially when money and politicians focus on re-elections. Infrastructure development in deadlock due to spending. If there was an independent economic and infrastructure planning authority similar to the powers of the U.S. Federal Reserve would that be socialist.Just curious.

As Napoleon Bonaparte said, “China is a sleeping giant. Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will move the world.”

 

[po18guy]

'Collectivism" denies or suppresses the dignity of the human. Therefore, the Church condemns all such “isms.” CCC1878-1885, in particular 1883 and 1885:

1883 Socialization also presents dangers. Excessive intervention by the state can threaten personal freedom and initiative. The teaching of the Church has elaborated the principle of subsidiarity , according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co- ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism. It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies. It tends toward the establishment of true international order.

This does not let any other type of government off the hook. Rather, it calls them to a higher morality.

 

[dochawk]

Speaking as an economics professor . . .

It is far easier to “catch up” when the technology is already developed and there to copy. In such situations, the command economy might make faster progress.

When it actually has to do the things to push past the frontier, however (innovator, reallocate, deallocate), it’s another story, which is why we see economy after economy going from near-parity with the US and Western Europe to the catastrophes of Venezuela, Argentina, and so forth.

Or look at Western and Eastern Germany. Or North and South Korea . . .

doc hawk

 

[ratio1]

I don’t see any problem from a Catholic Church point of view.
China says it is learning and it is experimenting with whatever works.
Communism in its original form obviously does not work and it has abandoned that. It is now trying this mixed economy and we just have to wait and see the outcome.
It is also trying a mixed political system as well with consultative democracy.

The fatal flaw in communism is that it assumes absolute economic equality. The fatal flaw in current Western democracy is that it assumes absolute political equality. The Brexit vote is a clear example where democracy has failed.

 

[Tenzin]

I am looking more to the lines of Singapore strategy, but I agree with your statements. For example, although the Chinese did not come up with Fusion power, they are able to progress faster-Chinese fusion tool pushes past 100 million degrees . The U.S. generally innovates and invents while China pushes those ideas to the extreme.
These are the documentaries I saw -

 

[Mary888]

It is far easier to “catch up” when the technology is already developed and there to copy. In such situations, the command economy might make faster progress.

 

[Mary888]

In China abortion is forced according to whatever the Party rules. From a Christian p.o.v. whatever they’re doing there is bad.
Also pollution is pretty high, they use chemicals forbidden in US and EU, they offered slave-like workers for many Western companies to welcome investors, there are large parts of the country just ignored by the Party where people live in sheer poverty. So sure… when you break all the rules it all “works out”. The pharaohs built great pyramids, but who did they worship? God or the Enemy?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The pharaohs built great pyramids, but who did they worship? God or the Enemy?

I agree with your intent, but I wanted to point out that the pyramids were not built by slave labor or by “breaking the rules.” They were build primarily by a volunteer work force that was paid in grain and other necessities during the non-farming periods of the year. The pyramids are actually a pretty good example of how to do public works, as they provided a way for people to earn a living while their primary industry wasn’t in season. This is not dissimilar from the Eerie canal project.

That’s less important nowadays, with year-round farming schedules and climate-independent work, but back when the pyramids were built it was a boon to the Egyptian people.

 

[HopkinsReb]

However, I am impressed with the Chinese economy.

Why, exactly? China’s per capita GDP is less than $9000 per year. It’s a fairly poor country.

They refer to it as “socialist market economy”

A contradiction in terms.

while experts call it “state capitalism”.

Also a contradiction in terms.

I think politics hinders economic planning especially when money and politicians focus on re-elections.

Politics does indeed hinder economic planning. So do those ever-so inconvenient creatures we call “people.”

If there was an independent economic and infrastructure planning authority similar to the powers of the U.S. Federal Reserve would that be socialist.

Not necessarily socialist, but it would represent essentially a command economy.

There’s a fundamental issue here with the allocation of knowledge, something Hayek wrote about. Planned economies don’t actually work. China’s actually a shining example of this – it took the murder of tens of millions of people from crushing famines to switch to the type of economy its rulers wanted. And it’s still poor, with its per capita GDP about 15% of that of the US. China’s economy looks better than it is because it is simply big. China’s has an enormous population. But in terms of the actual functioning of its economy, it’s quite ineffective. The problem is that an economy is essentially a giant computer that stores absurd amounts of information plus the physical components that take advantage of that information. That information is distributed throughout the economy in a number of forms: the knowledge held by skilled workers, the prices paid for goods and services, consumers’ individual and varied tastes, and others. That type of information is by its very nature impossible to aggregate into a single source. After all, your taste can change day-to-day. People learn new skills all the time. It’s impossible to plan for new, disruptive innovations.

In other words, China’s economy is actually pretty bad, and it’s bad for the exact reasons that you’re identifying as its strengths.

Look at me, giving a more in-depth answer than econ professor @dochawk. You’ve been out-nerded, for now.

 

[ratio1]

Yes catch up to such an extent that China 5g is now better, beidou looks set to be better than GPS, high speed rail is now world best. Hmmm…

 

[ratio1]

Yes the videos all seem from the same source. For me I like to look at different sources and make up my mind that way.
There are also documentaries by discovery channel and others.

 

[ratio1]

Singapore strategy

I think Lee Kuan Yew probably model his political system on the Catholic Church and its Cardinal system.
Another example where Western style Liberal democracy is not needed for progress. Lee has brought Singapore from third world to first. Juts like Deng.
I believe the Catholic Church political system is the best one. It is the longest continuous running institution in the world and there is lots to be learnt from it. One day folks will realise we’ve had enough time toying with liberal democracy and its time to move on.

 

[Mary888]

Yes catch up to such an extent that China 5g is now better, beidou looks set to be better than GPS, high speed rail is now world best. Hmmm…

With their abortion rate they can have 8G and still does not count. Plus they as a nation rejected God several times in history and even now the Party tries to pervert the Church. The Leader of this world pays those who bow to the Leader of this world. Every huge success is paid in this world at a price that makes it a failure. Every empire falls, every rich man dies poor.

 

[Tenzin]

I agree that China’s social policy suppresses human dignity and what not. However, when The Pope appoints Bishops and China approves. Was that not the same as the Padroado of the Portuguese in the 15th century with the relationship with Kings and the Pope. I agree that atheist state like China will persecute and that is its bad side, though.

 

[Tenzin]

In the United States, there is a reason an Electoral College was used instead of a direct Democracy. I used to think that direct democracy was the best form of government;now, I am not sure. I don’t know for sure if an Electoral College is the best either. Every political system has its weakness. Human rights should not be suppressed though.

 

[midori]

Isn’t a giant chunk of China’s economy based on IP theft?

I’m trying to remember a thing of commentary I’d heard on the subject, as to why the US has tolerated it for so long. Basically, the thing was, “Oh, they’re communists, but they’re trying to be a modern capitalistic society. It’s okay if they steal stuff, because they’ll become Westernized, and be good global citizens.”

So, it started off as making cheap toys, and cheap tools, and stuff like that. Sometimes it was the genuine stuff, and sometimes they were knockoffs of other things.

Then it grew into making cheap knockoff DVDs, cheap knockoff computer parts, and so on.

They saw things they liked, and they reverse-engineered it into their own version of the product, so that now, it’s grown into complicated technology, serious code, and stuff like that. Which is why Huawei cellphones were banned back in 2012, because they were serious security risks.

And at the same time, they, as a collective/society/group, have trouble grasping how certain qualities are more important than the bottom line. I have friends/relatives who have lived and worked in China, and the one thing they consistently tell me is anecdotes about how, if a factory is supposed to make a doohickey, they’ll make it as cheaply as possible, and end up with a piece of junk. But by spending an extra penny per doohickey, it will be a more reliable product. They’ll be told by people Stateside, “Spend the extra penny”, and the local managers will deliberately disobey— because their goal is to make a doohickey as cheaply as possible, without caring that it won’t hold up to its intended use because of the false economy.

And socially/politically, they haven’t really budged much from the flaws that caused the West to be so indulgent with them for so long.

The Cultural Revolution, and all the millions of deaths that went along with it, is still in living memory.

They abort, what, 9 million every year?

So— China’s economy isn’t something I’d really care to emulate. The numbers are nice, in theory… but when you start digging down to the reality, it fails in all sorts of ways.

 

[Daisy]

It probably helps that their population has a very high concentration of hard-working thirty-year-olds etc. Namely, unmarried men.

 

[ratio1]

 

[ratio1]

I am not sure. I don’t know for sure if an Electoral College is the best either. Every political system has its weakness.

So what’s your view on my comment that the Catholic Church has the best political system? I don’t know why we have to toy with ideas foreign to the Catholic faith like liberal democracy when the solution is right here at home. Look no further, the Church has survived all these years and it is the oldest continuous institution on earth. No other institution come even remotely close.

 

[ratio1]

Great. Thanks for supporting my point.
My point was that this was not simply a catchup as dochawk suggested. China is indeed now better in some aspects and this clearly debunks the myth of the catch up theory and the significance of IP theft as mentioned by @midori