Chivalry question

[Jay2]

There should be NO question…

If a woman is approaching a door, it will be opened for her. End of story… Man Rules Number (whatever):

Any woman that is obviously older than you will be addressed as “Mame”…and the door WILL be held for as long as it takes for her to get inside.
A woman of same or close to age will be addressed as “Please, my pleasure… go ahead…(including her date/escort)”
A young woman or girl will be addressed as “Miss”, and given the courtesy of “please, go on, my honor”…

In any of these cases you will hold the door until you are relieved by another man courtious to take the “door duty” and allow you to then catch up to your date/party…

If a woman takes offense to this courtesy she can stuff it (along with new batteries in her psydo-manly toy)…right where NO man has gone before, or wants to go again…

I personally have been verbally BLASTED by women (from 20 to 40-something) for being courtious… opening a door for a woman.

“I CAN OPEN MY OWN DOORS…THANK YOU VERY MUCH”
“WHAT… YOU WANNA GET LAID???”
“YOU THINK I CAN’T DO THIS FOR MYSELF???”

Geezzz… and they wonder why they think all the “good ones” are GAY or unhappily married…

And they wonder why they “Can’t find a good man”…

As far as double doors go:

If I open the 1st and “she” doesn’t move to the 2nd… I’ll enter and open the 2nd…

If she moves to the 2nd door and reaches, it’s her move and will receive a “thank you”.

This is a COMMON courtesy! Why a question?

Women have grown an attitude against the publisized “weaker sex” thing… I say “Tough Sh*t”. I’ll still open doors, address them with Miss, Mrs, Ms… they are women. Worthy of my respect and protection.

Protection… That’s what women don’t really understand. As a man it is ingrained in my being to PROTECT women…At the cost of my life I will protect the females … be it mother, wife, daughter…

Women are programmed to protect their young… at the sacrifice of themselves.

Men are programmed to protect their females. also with the ultimate price.

I was raised to honor, care, and respect. If a woman isn’t able to realize the fact I can heft 250lbs. and toss it 20ft… She needs to re-evaluate the fact I can’t push a watermelon through a lemon-sized opening and give it life…

My job as a man is to desire, then love, then protect the woman I find willing to share life with me… BUT… I will never give up my job of protecting/caring for… other women I see.

 

[deb1]

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“I CAN OPEN MY OWN DOORS…THANK YOU VERY MUCH”
“WHAT… YOU WANNA GET LAID???”
“YOU THINK I CAN’T DO THIS FOR MYSELF???”

.

The second reason should inspire pity. If a woman thinks that common decency is an attempt to get her to have sex then perhaps she has been hurt in the past.

 

[SeekerJen]

I’m in academia, where people are barely civil. If I waited at every door for a man to hold it open for me, I’d likely be waiting all day. I’m fairly small, and according to others I’m pretty, but as far as I can tell people look right over my head and thus don’t even see me half the time (I’ve had enough tall men walk right smack into me to be pretty sure of that theory). I’ve exited doors and held them for people entering to grab, only to have them blow right past me without so much as an acknowledgement. I’ve had men my age see me approaching a door while carrying two cages full of mice (not heavy but extremely unwieldy), and not only refuse to help me with the door but shove past me once I finally figured out how to turn the handle without dropping the cages.

Quite honestly, it shocks me when men are chivalrous. Believe me, I do notice it and am not always sure how to react. It seems pretty well entrenched in local culture that it isn’t seemly. I’m also not the princess type who can get away with just expecting it and thus having it happen. I’ve never known how to be that girl.

 

[Loren_1of6]

Jen, maybe they’re walking into you because you’re so pretty, not because you’re hard to see. It is a compliment; they want to meet you and can’t figure out a good opening line.

 

[Arlene]

Here’s a related question, not to hijack the thread…

What if a man holds the door open for you at a restaurant, thereby allowing you to enter the restaurant first. There is the greeter at the door ready to seat you first because you entered first. I always feel awkward about this. The man should have been ahead of me except that he opened the door for me and allowed me to go in. So does that courtesy expand to getting seated first, ordering first, getting my food first? If I was a man I would rethink holding the door in the first place.

Should I tell the greeter that the man is ahead of me, and let her seat him first?

 

[Trelow]

Here’s a related question, not to hijack the thread…

What if a man holds the door open for you at a restaurant, thereby allowing you to enter the restaurant first. There is the greeter at the door ready to seat you first because you entered first. I always feel awkward about this. The man should have been ahead of me except that he opened the door for me and allowed me to go in. So does that courtesy expand to getting seated first, ordering first, getting my food first? If I was a man I would rethink holding the door in the first place.

Should I tell the greeter that the man is ahead of me, and let her seat him first?

He should let you be served first. Women get served first outside the home and they serve the men first in the home.

 

[AnnaTherese]

It shouldn’t take more than a second for your husband to catch up with you though. Typically, the greeter asks how many in your party and smoking or non, whether you need a highchair or booster seat, etc. IMO, those are questions the husband should answer. Then when the greeter begins to lead you to your seat, the lady should follow the greeter, followed by the husband, and the husband should pull out the chair for the wife, but I don’t think you should leave your husband in the dust if he is busy opening doors for other ladies… After all, who will get your chair for you and help you with your coat? Thus the husband is serving the wife, and as paying customers they are both served by the greeter.

I’m all for common courtesy, but I do think there is wisdom in letting the men serve the women, and it’s not only for selfish reasons. God made us a certain way and when we exercise chivalry properly, we also honor God and the way he made us. Guys, do you agree?

 

[ElizaE]

Do I expect men to open door for me… Heck yeah!!! I am suprised if they don’t. Do I offer up a smile and and thank you afterwards… of course. Every lady should reward a gentleman with a smile and a kind word.

I think this is the problem with the young women today. They do not see themselves as ladies worthy of respect, admiration, honestly and chivalry. Every woman should hold herself like a lady even if you are wearing your oldest jeans and a t-shirt or scrubs. I am a medical student and my attendings and residents will open the door for me. (That was a bit weird because he is the BIG CHEESE and sometimes you feel like you should open the door for him, but no, they were all gentleman and ALWAYS opened the door for the female med students.This I call chivalry because surgeons are so self absorbed )

Do I hold a door open for a man… sometimes and in unique circumstances like he has a broken leg or is carrying something (especially if he is carrying it for me ). I always hold door open for mother with children in strollers and older ladies.

I live in Texas and man here will wait at the door for you to catch up to hold the door open. I always smile and and say thank you. I think it is very un-lady like not to say thank you.

 

[Jay2]

IMHO the Texas “Male Rules of Conduct/Courtesy Towards Women” should infect the rest of the male population…!

This is where “women’s lib movement” sorely backfired… They shot themselves in the foot here… I’m all for equality, equal pay, etc… all the rights that are deserved, and NONE of the BS sexist crapola you endured during the “Good 'Ol-Boys Club” days… but this slammed the door on (most) male conduct & courtesy… “You can open your own friggin’ door (if/when I don’t know if you’re going to blast me about doing it for you…)”…

Well, there’s still a few of us out there that hold all women dear… AND a few of us that raise our sons with the same level of respect and care… “uncool and un-hip” as it is… someone’s got to perpetuate what’s right.

I think this is the problem with the young women today. They do not see themselves as ladies worthy of respect, admiration, honestly and chivalry. Every woman should hold herself like a lady even if you are wearing your oldest jeans and a t-shirt or scrubs.

(IMO I’ll look twice, or longer than the “Nine Second Rule” at a gal in jeans and a “Tee” than one “Dressed to the Nine’s”… ).

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Well, since the double doors are there for climate control, one could wait until the first door closes before opening the second. Then it becomes a matter of who’s in the vestibule.

It is a courtesy to have someone open the door for you, so I think it is a little presumptuous to expect it from anyone, except those that are your job to train. To be treated like royalty is a gift, and should be considered as such. It is one thing to enjoy having the door opened for you, and another to get your nose bent out of shape if it isn’t. The latter seems to me not to be a humble attitude. Jesus chided the rabbis who took too much enjoyment from the priveleges of their position. Ladies should take note.

I decide door opening based on whether it is more difficult or less graceful for one person to do it than the other. Most dresses and definitely high heels: not graceful. The stance you have to take to get a big door open is just not flattering. Holding packages, being frail on your feet, or navigating a stroller: more difficult. In those cases, it is no sin to ask for help, either, regardless of gender, because of the awkwardness and imposition you’d cause if you fell over or dropped something.

Texas would probably be a different matter. Were I anywhere where men expected to be allowed to be given the time to open doors as a sign of my faith in their proper upbringing, I think it would be an insult to breeze on as if I expected less of them. This would put me in the position of having to cover for them and act as if I expected no such thing if they failed to do it, but oh, well. The idea of manners is to give everyone else the greatest respect and to put them in the best possible light. On the continuum of the things that love of neighbor requires, that really isn’t such a lot to ask. Any humiliations involved are really vanishingly small, nothing a Christian would fear.

The main thing is that this not be a pretext for indulging one’s own pride. If you aren’t doing whatever you are doing as a way to humble yourself on behalf of the other person, then you ought to re-examine why you do it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t think it’s just Texans who do this. It is very common across the South. It’s second nature to me since I was raised this way and I, too, have been burned by a young woman who bluntly told me she did not need my assistance.

I opened and closed car doors when traveling with my boss (now retired) and I always addressed her as “Miz Jan” since she is old enough to be my mother. A consultant for our office who was from out west became alarmed and got me off to the side to ask if he should be expected to adopt our manners and customs. I was shocked by this because, like I said, these things are ingrained in me. I have colleagues from both Arkansas and Alabama who have school age children. The kids are unfailingly polite and a delight to have dinner with. I have noticed that children from other parts of the country answer questions from adults with “yes” rather than “yes, sir” or “yes, ma’am”. I’d like to think it’s not just a Southern thing.

 

[deb1]

I don’t think it’s just Texans who do this. It is very common across the South. It’s second nature to me since I was raised this way and I, too, have been burned by a young woman who bluntly told me she did not need my assistance.

I opened and closed car doors when traveling with my boss (now retired) and I always addressed her as “Miz Jan” since she is old enough to be my mother. A consultant for our office who was from out west became alarmed and got me off to the side to ask if he should be expected to adopt our manners and customs. I was shocked by this because, like I said, these things are ingrained in me. I have colleagues from both Arkansas and Alabama who have school age children. The kids are unfailingly polite and a delight to have dinner with. I have noticed that children from other parts of the country answer questions from adults with “yes” rather than “yes, sir” or “yes, ma’am”. I’d like to think it’s not just a Southern thing.

My hubby is in the military and we have lived in many parts of the country. Outside of the south, there are many people who act like being called ma’am or sir is insulting to them. This has always seemed odd to me. Why wouldn’t someone want children to be respectful to elders?

My neighbor is from the Northeast and she has had family members criticize her because she now leaves in the south and encourages her children to say ma’am and sir.

 

[LilyM]

I am always pleased when doors are opened for me etc., and always express thanks to those who help me. I don’t expect it though - and if it happened all the time I’d start to find it annoying, and perhaps feel (though never say of course!) that people didn’t trust me to do things for myself.

Growing up in a family of five sisters and no brothers, not to mention attending an all-girls High School, has made me more gender-blind about such things. Being the youngest of said sisters has made me a little less expecting of attention.

With the double-door setup it just makes sense to me that whoever arrives at the second set of doors first should open them. But I wouldnt dream of being so calculating as to slow down deliberately so that someone else got there first

If someone was pointedly snubbing me, or ignoring me when I NEEDED help I’d say something though - that’s just rude!

 

[brotherhrolf]

My hubby is in the military and we have lived in many parts of the country. Outside of the south, there are many people who act like being called ma’am or sir is insulting to them. This has always seemed odd to me. Why wouldn’t someone want children to be respectful to elders?

My neighbor is from the Northeast and she has had family members criticize her because she now leaves in the south and encourages her children to say ma’am and sir.

I’ve never been able to figure this out either. I grew up in the 50s and certainly that was the message on TV from Ding, Dong School to the Mickey Mouse Club. Captain Kangaroo taught manners. Then came the 60s. I think that maybe the social conservatism of the South may have had a part to play.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

My hubby is in the military and we have lived in many parts of the country. Outside of the south, there are many people who act like being called ma’am or sir is insulting to them. This has always seemed odd to me. Why wouldn’t someone want children to be respectful to elders?

My neighbor is from the Northeast and she has had family members criticize her because she now leaves in the south and encourages her children to say ma’am and sir.

For some people, being addressed as ma’am or sir is akin to be addressed as “Your Highness.” It is not insulting so much as inappropriate. Remember, too, that children expected to address adults with titles used to also be addressed by title under the same situations: Miss Smith (the oldest), Miss Violet, Miss Rose (younger ones), Master David. In other words, what is considered proper is subject to change.

Originally, the whole “ma’am” and “sir” business was for the gentry…being a “gentleman” or a “lady” meant that you or your family owned land. Later, acting like you belonged in the gentry became a signal of whether you came from a “good family.”

Respect for elders is hardly confined to how you address those older than you are, after all. It has to do with showing gratitude in word and action (no calling somebody else’s cooking “yucky”) and showing respect for the conversations of others, not interrupting or eavesdropping.

When in Rome, kids. If you went to a foreign country where it was inappropriate for children to address adults in the way they were accustomed to doing back home, you’d teach them the change, wouldn’t you. It should not be less so just because those adults are your relatives.

This, of course, adds the whole problem of finding out what the rules are. If in doubt, ask. If corrected, by all means respect the person’s wishes. It isn’t that hard for a bright little kid to pick up. On the spectrum of what is expected of us as Christians in service to our fellow human beings, treating them as they ask to be treated isn’t such a big thing to do.

 

[LilyM]

For some people, being addressed as ma’am or sir is akin to be addressed as “Your Highness.” It is not insulting so much as inappropriate.

Not just that - I vividly remember the first time I was referred to by someone as a ‘lady’ after years of being a ‘girl’ … it’s a sign of getting older when people treat you with greater respect

And in our youth-obsessed culture some would rather be ‘cool’ than respected for sure.

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Not just that - I vividly remember the first time I was referred to by someone as a ‘lady’ after years of being a ‘girl’ … it’s a sign of getting older when people treat you with greater respect

And in our youth-obsessed culture some would rather be ‘cool’ than respected for sure.

For some, it definitely has to do with not wanting to be old. For others, though, it has to do with being approachable or a personal dislike of formality.

There is also a feeling of wanting to be respected simply as a human being, or for your contributions rather than your station. For instance, where I went to grad school, the postdoctoral fellows generally did not want to be addressed as “doctor” and even the professors were on a first-name basis with graduate students. It was a matter of collegiality.

There are those who think that little kids who know them well should be on informal terms. I have even had a friend insists that my kids call him “uncle”! Excuse me, but the kids have a mess of uncles…but I tell them to call him whatever he likes, unless it makes them uncomfortable, in which case they can tell him so and choose to be on more formal terms. (I don’t think it is a good idea to get kids into the habit of forced familiarity with anybody!)

I don’t know. I kind of go with what people want to be called, and I generally am ok with whatever they feel comfortable calling me or with the degree of formality that my colleagues like to have. It’s not that important to me, so if it is important to them, I think I ought to make the effort to move in their direction. I think that anybody who finds it really important to them, though, should say so. That is entirely ok. As for kids…what mom says goes. If I say I like to be addressed a certain way and mom disagrees, the mom wins. Kids ought to see that everybody respects the fact that their parents have the final authority.

As the old saying goes, just don’t call me late for dinner.