"Choice" Is....

[PKoucheravy]

On these Truth Tours there is a warning sign which tells motorists that “Graphic Abortion Pictures” are ahead. Motorists have a “choice” to detour or continue straight ahead to see the pictures. So you can be “pro-choice” and detour to another east/west or north/south street to get where you want to go.

That would seem to be a sort of compromise. Sounds good.

Second, there are many kids holding these pictures and they are never affected by the pictures.

Good for them. Doesn’t mean every kid will handle them well and you shouldn’t take that responsibility over from the parent.

Third, do you really believe there were no kids around watching Christ during the Crucifiction? I also have seen parents let their kids play video games which have realistic pictures which look worse than the abortion pictures.

Of course there were kids at the crucifixion – is this supposed to justify either Good Friday or children seeing graphic abortion photos? Just because one child sees one horrible act and handles it well doesn’t prove the rule for ALL children. And on the video games, that’s just bad parenting. We have ratings on movies and games for a reason.

Fourth, wouldn’t it be better for a child to be alive seeing the abortion pictures than rather be torn apart limb by limb in his/her mothers womb to their death?

Well, you’ve got a point there, but I’m not sure you can link causally that seeing an abortion photo necessarily leads to not having an abortion. In fact, I would think it hardens the hearts of many a fence-sitting pro-choicer.

Last, the fact Emmitt Till’s mother exposed Emmitt Till’s dead mutilated body in an open caskit sparked the Civil Rights movement. Are you therefore against the Civil Rights movement?

Well, I’ve heard it was Rosa Parks at the front of the bus that sparked the civil rights movement. Also, that doesn’t mean Emmitt Till’s mother was RIGHT to do it. God can bring good out of the most evil situation. I’m glad that it drove people to do good instead of evil. There might as well have been rioting and mass chaos as a result. Again, you can’t prove the causal link between graphic imagery/experience and a good outcome. That’s too close to “ends justify the means.”

I am absolutely pro-life. There is no excuse for abortion in any case. HOWEVER, I also feel that forcing graphic imagery on strangers is wrong. I would think that the March for Life would be a much more appropriate forum for explicit photographs than on the side of a highway.

 

[PLAL]

PKoucheravy,

We will have to agree to disagree on the use of using graphic abortion signs. I guess I can somewhat agree with you because I feel there are places graphic abortion signs should not be used. But then I feel there are places graphic abortion signs need to be used. I will give you a few examples…

I do not believe in using graphic abortion signs in front of abortuary’s when abortions are being performed. I would rather stick to prayer and try to reach out and talk to the couples before the go into the abortuary. I know 80% of couples who see an ultrasound of their baby will end of choosing life! Therefore my goal is to get the couple to talk to me and offer them to take one hour to go to the local Crisis Pregnancy Center for a free ultrasound before entering the Abortuary for an abortion.

Second, we had a so-called “Catholic” University in our area who was letting a Pro-Abortion speaker come in and give a talk to the students but refused to give the same platform to a Pro-Life speaker who was running against the Pro-Abortion speaker for U.S. Senator. What could we as Practicing “Catholics” do to protest this Pro-Abortion speaker speaking at a Catholic University? We held up graphic signs at all of the entrances of the University to show everyone what this Pro-Abortion speaker endorsed. Many students did not know the candidate was Pro-Abortion before our demonstration and were outraged a Catholic University would give him a platform to talk. This Pro-Abortion politician is now running for 2008 U.S. President.

Last, I hope you would agree with me on this point. I do feel a good place to show pictures of graphic abortion pictures are on college campuses. Your audience is definitely old enough to handle the shock in the pictures. I really feel this is the perfect environment/age group to show graphic abortion pictures.

 

[Dispector]

I would have to agree with PKoucheravy on this one. While I am staunchly against abortion I feel the presentation of our disagreement with abortion should be done tastefully when in the presence of children.

Example: A parent can educate a child on the birds and the bees without showing a video of people having intercourse. And I don’t think people would appreciate having a pornographic picture draped on the highway. (I understand this is quite a contrast, but the point is to have tastefulness when children are around.)

Unfortunately, I feel these “in your face tactics” (which are necessary in some situations) can be more harmful to our message. Sometimes when the argument is presented in this fashion it does more to turn people off than turn people on.

These are the suggestions I propose to make the choice for life an easier one to take:

1. The praying in front of the abortion clinics. This is not harassing, shows respect for the peopled shows respect for the babies, and provides a sense of silent solidarity for life.
2. Educate the mothers. Show them that abortion is not the only choice. Let them know there are options and help out there.
3. Help the single mothers that need the help. Stretch out our arms to help them. We MUST help those who feel there is no other option.
4. The sonogram before an abortion is very important to show that the fetus is actually a human being.

On a personal note -
I know someone very close to me that had an abortion. She became pregnant on accident and only asked advice from those who supported abortions and who had them previously. Immediately after the abortion she fell into a deep depression that lasted for months if not a year. She eventually was able to pull herself out of the depression but I know she deeply regrets her choice for the abortion. She has since become pregnant again. This time however she is refusing to have an abortion. She is having some medical complications, but refuses to have an abortion for any reason.

Although I do not validate her actions in regards to her pregnancies or abortion I do want to point out that some women get abortions because they have no where else to turn. We must reach out to these people to provide the support they would otherwise lack. The picture of an aborted baby does NOT count as support. For all the anti-abortion movement I hardly see anything in the public informing the pregnant women where to go to get help. All you see is “Abortion is bad.” We MUST put forward the message “WE CAN HELP YOU” if we truly wish to overcome abortion.

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[PLAL]

I know someone very close to me that had an abortion. She became pregnant on accident and only asked advice from those who supported abortions and who had them previously. Immediately after the abortion she fell into a deep depression that lasted for months if not a year. She eventually was able to pull herself out of the depression but I know she deeply regrets her choice for the abortion. She has since become pregnant again. This time however she is refusing to have an abortion. She is having some medical complications, but refuses to have an abortion for any reason.

You should listen to a woman I know who had the same experience she had 5 abortions. Here is her website…

lovefromaboveinc.com/

You can listen to her testimony on “Catholic Answers Live” (go to 2-17-06)…

www2.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php?type=month&calendar=1&category=0&month=01&year=2006

Although I do not validate her actions in regards to her pregnancies or abortion I do want to point out that some women get abortions because they have no where else to turn. We must reach out to these people to provide the support they would otherwise lack. For all the anti-abortion movement I hardly see anything in the public informing the pregnant women where to go to get help. All you see is “Abortion is bad.” We MUST put forward the message “WE CAN HELP YOU” if we truly wish to overcome abortion.

Mark, our community is already doing this. Our Parish was the first in the Chicagoland area who started a Catholic Crisis Pregnancy Center which also includes Project Gabriel and Project Rachael. So been there and already doing that. I am way ahead of you.

choicedupage.com

 

[vern_humphrey]

Nope, not advocating censorship. They have a RIGHT to hold up the pictures, but that doesn’t mean it IS right. I wouldn’t take any measures to stop them, it is their constitutional right – I just don’t agree with it.

Then where’s the argument?

After all, people do things we don’t think is right every day – often on television. And in many cases they do it, not to expose a ghastly crime, but to make money.

 

[PKoucheravy]

Then where’s the argument?

After all, people do things we don’t think is right every day – often on television. And in many cases they do it, not to expose a ghastly crime, but to make money.

Well, this is a forum. We’re arguing a topic and point of view.

Did you think that because I disagree with an in-your-face tactic that I necessarily think it must be legally stopped? I like a good debate.

 

[PKoucheravy]

PKoucheravy,

We will have to agree to disagree on the use of using graphic abortion signs. I guess I can somewhat agree with you because I feel there are places graphic abortion signs should not be used. But then I feel there are places graphic abortion signs need to be used. I will give you a few examples…

I do not believe in using graphic abortion signs in front of abortuary’s when abortions are being performed. I would rather stick to prayer and try to reach out and talk to the couples before the go into the abortuary. I know 80% of couples who see an ultrasound of their baby will end of choosing life! Therefore my goal is to get the couple to talk to me and offer them to take one hour to go to the local Crisis Pregnancy Center for a free ultrasound before entering the Abortuary for an abortion.

Second, we had a so-called “Catholic” University in our area who was letting a Pro-Abortion speaker come in and give a talk to the students but refused to give the same platform to a Pro-Life speaker who was running against the Pro-Abortion speaker for U.S. Senator. What could we as Practicing “Catholics” do to protest this Pro-Abortion speaker speaking at a Catholic University? We held up graphic signs at all of the entrances of the University to show everyone what this Pro-Abortion speaker endorsed. Many students did not know the candidate was Pro-Abortion before our demonstration and were outraged a Catholic University would give him a platform to talk. This Pro-Abortion politician is now running for 2008 U.S. President.

Last, I hope you would agree with me on this point. I do feel a good place to show pictures of graphic abortion pictures are on college campuses. Your audience is definitely old enough to handle the shock in the pictures. I really feel this is the perfect environment/age group to show graphic abortion pictures.

Rock on, a college campus is definitely a better place for those kinds of pictures.

I also agree with you that counseling and crisis centers near abortion clinics are essential. I think too many pro-lifers are into fighting Roe v. Wade, when we should really be fighting both the socio-economic problems that make women they feel they should choose an abortion AND the Supreme Court’s past decisions.

God bless, praying for an end to abortion…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, this is a forum. We’re arguing a topic and point of view.

Did you think that because I disagree with an in-your-face tactic that I necessarily think it must be legally stopped? I like a good debate.

In keeping with that, we must introduce pragmatism. When it comes to fighting abortion, what is good is what works, no?

 

[PKoucheravy]

Yes, I just don’t think that sign like that on the side of the road works. I think those signs are better served at the March for Life or on a college campus or in other appropriate venues.

 

[PKoucheravy]

In keeping with that, we must introduce pragmatism. When it comes to fighting abortion, what is good is what works, no?

By that reasoning, we should be using violence on the abortion clinics because that would stop an abortion from occurring, right? What works is not ALWAYS what is good.

 

[Stolen_Rutters]

I am of two minds.

Whatever happened to decency and censorship laws in this country? Children should be protected from images this graphic. I was disturbed by them, and they don’t change or affirm the reasoning for my opposition to abortion.

Emotional appeals to disgust are very effective, though. I destroyed maybe $500 of my dad’s cigarettes over the years when I was a kid, after I saw those graphic images of black, diseased lungs and throats.

“Slow suicide is a mortal sin.” - quote by me, the '80s.

It was a war of attrition between me and the smokes. It wasn’t until a few years ago that I started to understand the pull of an addiction that I was able to forgive him for trying to keep smoking. I have no doubt this will create a generation of people who will set aside any concept of forgiveness. How can you forgive someone who will do that to a child? I’m sure I won’t, unless they’re family, and even that will take years. I guess I’m selfish that way.

 

[vern_humphrey]

By that reasoning, we should be using violence on the abortion clinics because that would stop an abortion from occurring, right? What works is not ALWAYS what is good.

If you have a post where I advocated the use of violence, please post a quote. Otherwise, I am entitled to an apology.

 

[Dispector]

Mark, our community is already doing this. Our Parish was the first in the Chicagoland area who started a Catholic Crisis Pregnancy Center which also includes Project Gabriel and Project Rachael. So been there and already doing that. I am way ahead of you.

This is great. Definitely keep up the good work! I just wish the services were made more public and that people were more aware of them.

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is great. Definitely keep up the good work! I just wish the services were made more public and that people were more aware of them.

Respectfully,
Mark

Unfortunately the mainstream media does few or no news stories on pro-life initiatives, and almost never presents the Catholic Church in a favorable light,

 

[Dispector]

Unfortunately the mainstream media does few or no news stories on pro-life initiatives, and almost never presents the Catholic Church in a favorable light,

This is true unfortunately. The bias against Catholicism in mainstream media is ridiculous. There’s a saying… it goes “You will find bias not in what is reported in the media, but rather, by what is not reported.”

Respectfully,
Mark

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is true unfortunately. The bias against Catholicism in mainstream media is ridiculous. There’s a saying… it goes “You will find bias not in what is reported in the media, but rather, by what is not reported.”

Respectfully,
Mark

There are three rules:

1. If it reflects negatively on the Catholic Church, it will be reported – widely.
2. If it doesn’t reflect negatively on the Catholic Church, but can be spun that way, it will be spun that way – and widely reported.
3. If it reflects positively on the Catholic Church and a negative spin can’t be put on it, it will be ignored.

 

[Amolibri]

Originally Posted by PKoucheravy
By that reasoning, we should be using violence on the abortion clinics because that would stop an abortion from occurring, right? What works is not ALWAYS what is good.

If you have a post where I advocated the use of violence, please post a quote. Otherwise, I am entitled to an apology.

Vern, IMO you seem quick to take things personally. Nowhere
in the orig statement does PK accuse you of directly advocating violence. Pragmatism, yes…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Originally Posted by PKoucheravy
By that reasoning, we should be using violence on the abortion clinics because that would stop an abortion from occurring, right? What works is not ALWAYS what is good.

Vern, IMO you seem quick to take things personally. Nowhere
in the orig statement does PK accuse you of directly advocating violence. Pragmatism, yes…

When someone is talking to me and says, “by that reasoning,” he means by my reasoning. I have never advocated violence – and in fact have assisted the Forum in locating and cutting off people who did. To even suggest that my reasoning leads to violence is unfair and a legitimate cause for apology.

 

[cazayoux]

My brothers and sisters have seen images like this and they are still growing up to be happy well adjusted kids. They just happen to be pro-life than other kids.

Again, the timing for me to discuss this with my children is for me to decide.
If your parents decided to do it when they did, that is their right as parents.
Your parents making that decision does not mean it fits for all families or that it’s okay to force that on all families.
All families are different. Heck, even within my family, my boys are very different. I have one that might be able to have this discussion with maturity, while another might freak. I parent each one as I think each needs.
To say that your siblings saw these things early and turned out alright in no way means that my responsibilities and rights as a parent are removed.

I love that you are pro-life.
Keep up the prayers for those women to make the ‘right’ choice, life.

Cheers!

michel

 

[bmmckinney]

This is a great thread and I hope a few of you read my response here.

In 2003 I had an experience with an organization that shows what choice is to college students. It forever changed my life. Now I run the project that changed my life in the DC metro college area with a catholic prolife group.

I won’t post a lot on this issue but I want those of you who don’t feel comfortable about showing what choice is to google The Letter from Birmingham Jail. Read it. It will change your thoughts on this issue. Then consider this video I put together of women who had abortions who have told us that if they had seen the graphic photos before their abortion… their baby would be alive.

I have saved unborn babies using graphic material. All the years I sidewalk counseled without them, I did not save any. Here is the video: youtube.com/watch?v=JnSoIAqZV5A