"Choice" Now Extends to Born Children, Too

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livingwordunity said:
This is actually nothing new to leftist ideology. The left was against the born alive law which was to protect children who survive abortions so that they can’t be killed or left to die after. And they had no problem with killing Terri Schindler Schiavo.
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I’m fairly left of center and I believe third trimester abortion should be off limits. I REALLY believe once it survives the hypocratic oath applies and you have to do everything you can to save it!
I’ve noticed your tendency for sweeping statements. Please don’t. The political left actually consists of human beings who, last time I checked, your God said to love. Sweeping statements about groups are the seeds of prejudice and hate. I would fear the hatred in myself first and that of others second.
 
Lokadottir said:
I’m fairly left of center and I believe third trimester abortion should be off limits. I REALLY believe once it survives the hypocratic oath applies and you have to do everything you can to save it!
I’ve noticed your tendency for sweeping statements. Please don’t. The political left actually consists of human beings who, last time I checked, your God said to love. Sweeping statements about groups are the seeds of prejudice and hate. I would fear the hatred in myself first and that of others second.
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How is killing a child at the second trimester or after birth different than killing a child at the third trimester? The Born Alive Infant Protection Act was shot down because the politicians on the left were unified in opposing it. This includes a politician who opposed it and went on to become the left’s most popular leader.
 
livingwordunity said:
How is killing a child at the second trimester or after birth different than killing a child at the third trimester? The Born Alive Infant Protection Act was shot down because the politicians on the left were unified in opposing it. This includes a politician who opposed it and went on to become the left’s most popular leader.
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In third it is easily determined a child. I don’t care for second trimester abortions either. But, when the fetus is just a ring of cells that shall one day be an anus I don’t consider it a human. (all animals start by building the digestive track first and all humans begin this process on the anus end)

Now on to politics…
#1: Its a freakin’ spectrum.



In addition it’s almost more a doughnut since true far left and true far right overlap a bit.

#2: Most americans live somewhere right of TRUE socialism (think early Castro’s Cuba) and left of monarchism.

#3: You shouldn’t just divide humans left or right and then assume they toe the party line. IT. IS. A. SPECTRUM. People vary in opinions and beliefs. The problem is we have a two party system so everything is lumped into them. Leaders Republican and Democrat do NOT fully represent everyone right or left of center respectively.
 
ThinkingSapien said:
I thought that removing some one from life support machinery wasn’t considered the same as actively killing some one. Could you explain further?
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She died from dehydration because they denied her food and water. There was no machine involved. There was only a feeding tube. Her family offered to take full custody and care of her, but they were denied by the court because her husband, who had been living with another woman, wanted her to die.
 
Lokadottir said:
In third it is easily determined a child. I don’t care for second trimester abortions either. But, when the fetus is just a ring of cells that shall one day be an anus I don’t consider it a human.
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I’m amazed you would say this. Have you never seen an ultra-sound photo?
 
livingwordunity said:
I’m amazed you would say this. Have you never seen an ultra-sound photo?
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He made a reference to early embryology. In humans and other vertabrates the blastocyst the first mark of differentiation is a dimple forms in the ball of cells (Invagination). This dimple eventually develops into the exit of your gastrointestinal system. The dimple goes down further in the blastocyst forming the intestines and eventually reaches the other side where it will be the entrance to your gastrointestinal system (mouth).

I’m not sure how well that shows up in an ultrasound. Here’s an image of one though.

http://www.ivfcliniclondon.com/media/image/I-19-Blastocyst_Transfer_img_0.jpg
 
Cricket2 said:
First, I am not a supporter of euthanasia. Please remember this as I make the following statement considering the referenced article.
  1. At one point there is a statement that 50 years ago people would have been aghast at the idea of killing disabled adults. Frankly this is not true. Up until the time of John F Kennedy being in office this country put hundreds if not thousands of disabled children to death every year. They were warehoused like animals in “State Institutions” where it was common for them to be left naked, unfed, abused and neglected. It was also common for local fire departments to come along in the winter and hose down the insider of their “rooms” and leave the windows open so “nature would take it’s course.” They died from hypothermia, infections, exposure, abuse, hunger and other forms of mistreatment or lack of care every day.
My point is, the “culture of death” is not new. It is as old as the human race. Almost every culture out there has put the ill, defected or disabled to death out of a sense that survival was dependent on it. Primitive and barbaric, but sadly true. We have simply continued the notion with modern terms and thinking. One would think we would know better but we don’t seem to. Our society promotes being first, the strongest, wisest, healthiest over the sick.
  1. I do believe that very ill children can grow to understand that they are going to die due to their illness, and that they can eventually ask doctors and parents to stop treatment. I don’t believe they should ever be allowed to ask to be killed just for the sake of getting out of life. Letting someone die due to a terminal illness is a whole different thing that giving up or making a choice to live or die because of despair, giving up on live etc.
I think we are on slippery ground and always have been. It has just become more political and obvious due to today’s technology and communications.
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And more efficient and clinical. It’s depressing, really, how our society has regressed back to the behavior of the 1920s.
 
Lokadottir said:
Yes. Really I think it should be before the development of the nervous system around 20 weeks. have you ever seen a five week old fetus?
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The Church emphasises the importance of the lifeblood in its treatment of the dignity of the human being. This is a continuation of the Old Testament treatment of the blood as sacred. Under the section on the Fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, the Catechism states…

"The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time. " CCC2260

Technically then, the zygot implants in the uterus 6 days after conception and the blood cells form upon this implantation. Prior to that though, the inevitability of that process starts at the moment of conception, so that first six days of growth are really covered by the sacredness that applies to the lifeblood in general.
 
LongingSoul said:
The Church emphasises the importance of the lifeblood in its treatment of the dignity of the human being. This is a continuation of the Old Testament treatment of the blood as sacred. Under the section on the Fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, the Catechism states…

"The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time. " CCC2260

Technically then, the zygot implants in the uterus 6 days after conception and the blood cells form upon this implantation. Prior to that though, the inevitability of that process starts at the moment of conception, so that first six days of growth are really covered by the sacredness that applies to the lifeblood in general.
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Those are YOUR beliefs on the start of life.
 
LongingSoul said:
The Church emphasises the importance of the lifeblood in its treatment of the dignity of the human being. This is a continuation of the Old Testament treatment of the blood as sacred. Under the section on the Fifth commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, the Catechism states…

"The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life. This teaching remains necessary for all time. " CCC2260

Technically then, the zygot implants in the uterus 6 days after conception and the blood cells form upon this implantation. Prior to that though, the inevitability of that process starts at the moment of conception, so that first six days of growth are really covered by the sacredness that applies to the lifeblood in general.
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I don’t think that this idea of “lifeblood” has anything to do with the Church’s position on abortion. The Church opposes abortion from conception forward, because that is when a new and distinct individual of the human species has its beginning. It’s how we all started.
 
Lokadottir said:
#3: You shouldn’t just divide humans left or right and then assume they toe the party line. IT. IS. A. SPECTRUM. People vary in opinions and beliefs. The problem is we have a two party system so everything is lumped into them. Leaders Republican and Democrat do NOT fully represent everyone right or left of center respectively.
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If you aren’t to the left why did you assume that I was talking about you when I said “the left”? I didn’t mention your name or the name of anyone else.
 
livingwordunity said:
If you aren’t to the left why did you assume that I was talking about you when I said “the left”? I didn’t mention your name or the name of anyone else.
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You spoke of leftists as a whole. I am leftist. Therefore, you were talking about me too. The lack of names was actually the problem. You are demonizing the Left as a whole.
 
Lokadottir said:
You spoke of leftists as a whole. I am leftist. (funny how that does hinge on the abortion issue) Therefore, you were talking about me too. The lack of names was actually the problem. You are demonizing the Left as a whole.
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Lokadottir said:
You spoke of leftists as a whole. I am leftist. Therefore, you were talking about me too. The lack of names was actually the problem. You are demonizing the Left as a whole.
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I didn’t say part way to the left or mostly to the left. Left, by definition, is an extreme. If you are against some kinds of abortions then you aren’t all the way to the left. I was talking about pure leftist ideology and those who fully embrace it, not those who are on the fence and who aren’t all the way to the left. The current American White House administration is an example of being all the way to the left.
 
livingwordunity said:
I didn’t say part way to the left or mostly to the left. Left, by definition, is an extreme. If you are against some kinds of abortions then you aren’t all the way to the left. I was talking about pure leftist ideology and those who fully embrace it, not those who are on the fence and who aren’t all the way to the left.
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Pure leftist is ANARCHY. Consult the chart.
 
Lokadottir said:
Pure leftist is ANTARCHY. Consult the chart.
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All the way to the left is communism, the belief in a man-made Godless utopia with an elite ruling class to micro-manage people’s lives and arbitrarily tell people what’s good for them and force it on them. It actually sounds just like what’s been happening in America in recent years.
 
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