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Lokadottir
Guest
Why? Give me reasons and logic and sources.
Even if communism IS the farthest left their is, the US doesn’t really keep communists around. Just ask senator McCarthy.
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Even if communism IS the farthest left their is, the US doesn’t really keep communists around. Just ask senator McCarthy.
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Matilda_Bennett
Guest
Please return to the subject of the thread and remember that discussions of political parties and figures are not allowed in this forum. Thank you for your cooperation.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Are there any conditions in which mercy killing would be permitted under Catholicism?
I’ve got this image in my mind of some one being fatally injured in a war , in serious pain, and asking to be killed and wondering what reactions would be permittable.
I had asked about another scenario before in which some one were in a space craft that missed it’s target and hasn’t the fuel to get the passenger(s) to safety. Such a scenario would eventually result in death as resources ran dry. I was told that even in this scenario it would not be permitted for some one to make an earlier exit.
I’ve got this image in my mind of some one being fatally injured in a war , in serious pain, and asking to be killed and wondering what reactions would be permittable.
I had asked about another scenario before in which some one were in a space craft that missed it’s target and hasn’t the fuel to get the passenger(s) to safety. Such a scenario would eventually result in death as resources ran dry. I was told that even in this scenario it would not be permitted for some one to make an earlier exit.
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JimG
Guest
The basic distinction is that it is okay to allow someone to die when death is inevitable and someone is dying, even withholding extraordinary means of life support, but it is not okay to take positive action to kill someone.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Shouldn’t we stop calling murder ‘choice?’
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MysticMansion
Guest
God used His power to create for His own reason. We cannot and never will be able to create but we can distort, mutilate, divide, and screw around with just about anything.
Man cannot do good without God. All goodness is in God and from God. That does not restrict God to only allow Good to be done by those with faith. It rains sometimes even on the land of the wicked farmers perhaps to protect the worms there.
Man is capable of evil without end if he is left to his own devices. When God punishes people He begins by taking from them all the good things that they possess. Like faith, hope, love, kindness, neighbourliness, understanding, compassion and even reason. God punishes sin by sending wars, but it is man who plays them out and in their egos think that they alone were responsible. This is mostly due to the need that unhappy people have to point the finger of blame at someone instead of accepting the fact that we are all responsible for the sin that God is disturbed by. It is His charity that sends grief to warn us to change our lives.
We are near the end of times I think and He is just saving those who can be saved and has sped up time to do so. “Unless time is sped up even the elect would be lost.” Time has been sped up by all the technology around us.
If we went back a few hundred years we would see that the time it took to communicate with your auntie back in Europe when you lived in North America would take maybe a year or more. When a war was fought it might take years for your village to feel the effects of the new regime. Today we watch the war on CNN.
We need not trouble ourselves all that we were promised by Christ is coming to pass and we should remember all we need do is remain faithful. Heaven is won by patient forbearance. We may need to suffer but it is only for a few moments and then eternity awaits us. We need to trust in Christ and His narrow path and the Sacraments of His Church to see us through.
Man cannot do good without God. All goodness is in God and from God. That does not restrict God to only allow Good to be done by those with faith. It rains sometimes even on the land of the wicked farmers perhaps to protect the worms there.
Man is capable of evil without end if he is left to his own devices. When God punishes people He begins by taking from them all the good things that they possess. Like faith, hope, love, kindness, neighbourliness, understanding, compassion and even reason. God punishes sin by sending wars, but it is man who plays them out and in their egos think that they alone were responsible. This is mostly due to the need that unhappy people have to point the finger of blame at someone instead of accepting the fact that we are all responsible for the sin that God is disturbed by. It is His charity that sends grief to warn us to change our lives.
We are near the end of times I think and He is just saving those who can be saved and has sped up time to do so. “Unless time is sped up even the elect would be lost.” Time has been sped up by all the technology around us.
If we went back a few hundred years we would see that the time it took to communicate with your auntie back in Europe when you lived in North America would take maybe a year or more. When a war was fought it might take years for your village to feel the effects of the new regime. Today we watch the war on CNN.
We need not trouble ourselves all that we were promised by Christ is coming to pass and we should remember all we need do is remain faithful. Heaven is won by patient forbearance. We may need to suffer but it is only for a few moments and then eternity awaits us. We need to trust in Christ and His narrow path and the Sacraments of His Church to see us through.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Chances are that those that call it “murder” already agree with your moral position on the matter. Those that don’t give it the same moral evaluation probably refer to it as something else, such as “mercy killing.” (while murder is always killing, killing isn’t always murder). I think that if there where a shift in public opinion such that most saw this as morally wrong there were probably be a simultaneous shift to calling it murder.
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mikekle
Guest
This does not surprise me and probably should not surprise anyone else, after all, they have made it absolutely clear they do not care about the unborns life or chance at life, so why would it be a great shock for them to now suggest a parent should also have the right to kill their babies after they are born?
They have already proven LIFE means nothing to them, whether its a fetus in the womb, or a 2 yr old toddler, its all the same to them.
The are slowly and methodically getting it into peoples minds that killing is not a big deal, they have pretty much already accomplished this with abortion, and now they are on to the next goal in their agenda, its a shame more people are not offended by this though…I guess its true, once you accept killing, there is no moral ground.
My only concern is what comes after killing a living child becomes as normal as abortions…what is next in their agenda? will ANY type of killing then be OK, as long as it is somehow justified?
Satan is really accomplishing alot these days!
They have already proven LIFE means nothing to them, whether its a fetus in the womb, or a 2 yr old toddler, its all the same to them.
The are slowly and methodically getting it into peoples minds that killing is not a big deal, they have pretty much already accomplished this with abortion, and now they are on to the next goal in their agenda, its a shame more people are not offended by this though…I guess its true, once you accept killing, there is no moral ground.
My only concern is what comes after killing a living child becomes as normal as abortions…what is next in their agenda? will ANY type of killing then be OK, as long as it is somehow justified?
Satan is really accomplishing alot these days!
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Lokadottir
Guest
THE LAW IN BELGIUM IS ABOUT EUTHANASIA! IT WAS PUT NEXT TO SOME NUTTER’S IDEA THAT THERE SHOULD BE A SIX MONTH KILLING PERIOD FOR BABIES! NOT THE SAME THING!
phew!
That out of the way. I think ThinkingSapien and I BOTH agree killing what is recognized worldwide as an infant or child because you don’t want it is VERY wrong. This and the issue of child euthanasia were put next to each other but they are different. I think I can speak for both he and I when I say: the proposed six month killing period is effed up.
From here on you can definitely assume we are talking about child euthanasia.
(if I’m wrong Sapien just let me know man!)
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Will do. You’re doing just fine so far.
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MysticMansion
Guest
Unfortunately outsiders who have no share in salvation never seem to understand that society does not determine what is moral. Most Christians will tolerate non-Christians doing what they are going to do, providing they are mature enough to admit that they are fully prepared to suffer the consequences of their evil ways. It is the shock of seeing people who outwardly seem like us but are running as fast as their feet will carry them toward hell all the time reciting the false oath that they are intelligent.
Morality is not in the control of the state or of society but of God and is bound to His purpose and our knowledge of it is based on what God himself has revealed to us and the rational conclusions based on His interaction with mankind. Sin is always immoral and irrational. Sinners page one are always stupid about God and the truths of life. We call this ignorance either culpable or non-culpable based on what the individual knows or aught to know. God knows if the person will be sent directly to hell or not but we don’t need to worry for He is very thorough. He lets no sin off without sincere repentance.
For the people who promote by any means the killing of innocent children before during or after birth have no part in God or salvation. We should feel the utmost sorrow for their souls. We should pray for their enlightenment but we should avoid arguing directly with them for they have no capacity to understand reason and will have none until they first receive the grace of God to be able to hear truth. Perhaps we can by our prayers and sacrifices mediate with God for them to receive such grace.
Morality is not in the control of the state or of society but of God and is bound to His purpose and our knowledge of it is based on what God himself has revealed to us and the rational conclusions based on His interaction with mankind. Sin is always immoral and irrational. Sinners page one are always stupid about God and the truths of life. We call this ignorance either culpable or non-culpable based on what the individual knows or aught to know. God knows if the person will be sent directly to hell or not but we don’t need to worry for He is very thorough. He lets no sin off without sincere repentance.
For the people who promote by any means the killing of innocent children before during or after birth have no part in God or salvation. We should feel the utmost sorrow for their souls. We should pray for their enlightenment but we should avoid arguing directly with them for they have no capacity to understand reason and will have none until they first receive the grace of God to be able to hear truth. Perhaps we can by our prayers and sacrifices mediate with God for them to receive such grace.
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Lokadottir
Guest
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JimG
Guest
You are right. They are different. Euthanasia is not the same as abortion. The reasons can be uncomfortably similar in some cases. Euthanasia to kill the young to avoid further suffering. Euthanasia to kill the old to avoid further suffering or perhaps because the old are costing too much.THE LAW IN BELGIUM IS ABOUT EUTHANASIA! IT WAS PUT NEXT TO SOME NUTTER’S IDEA THAT THERE SHOULD BE A SIX MONTH KILLING PERIOD FOR BABIES! NOT THE SAME THING!
phew!
That out of the way. I think ThinkingSapien and I BOTH agree killing what is recognized worldwide as an infant or child because you don’t want it is VERY wrong. This and the issue of child euthanasia were put next to each other but they are different. I think I can speak for both he and I when I say: the proposed six month killing period is effed up.
From here on you can definitely assume we are talking about child euthanasia.
(if I’m wrong Sapien just let me know man!)
Voluntary euthanasia widely accepted can tend to become mandatory euthanasia—a duty to die. I’d rather keep a strict line between allowing someone to die of natural causes, and taking active steps to kill them.
On the other end of the spectrum, Professor Singer would like to push abortion rights forward past birth. That’s different, but still utilitarian. And he may be a nutter, but he’s still a professor of ethics (!) at Princeton University. That’s the scary part.
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Thorns
Guest
I foresee public sex and nudity, possible pedophilia being legalized next. We seem to be doing everything Holland is/has been doing.
Oh, people will call the pedophilia remark crazy, but the thinking is “If we can kill a child, why cant we have sex with them?”
Oh, people will call the pedophilia remark crazy, but the thinking is “If we can kill a child, why cant we have sex with them?”
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Lokadottir
Guest
Which is a very valid point. Thank you for using logic.
But I’m also not sure how ethical it is to force people near death to suffer.
My desire was to point out that Sapien and I were talking about euthanasia and rebuttals condemning abortion are illogical
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JimG
Guest
Yes, you were right about that. Even Catholic theology does not insist on forcing people to suffer, (although it does posit that suffering can be redemptive–another matter entirely.) It would allow for a person to refuse treatment which could not reasonably be expected to cure anything. No one is required to use “extraordinary means” to prolong life. (And extraordinary means are not written in stone but vary according to the medical situation.) I know of one person who voluntarily underwent months of cancer radiation treatment and chemotherapy. In the end it bought him six months. Not worth the trouble, in my view. I know another person who simply decided against any treatment at all. Situations vary, but those are both valid choices.
What would not have been a moral choice would be to not just refuse treatment but to take a suicide pill.
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mikekle
Guest
So, what would the people in India and some other countries where it is common to simply throw some babies away, be guilty of? Im referring to the cities where parents will throw unwanted babies or babies that appear to have any kind of defect, into a field somewhere and left to die! I was surprised how often this happens and in some of the places it takes place…more than one would think!
Would they be guilty (in Gods eyes) of killing/ murder or euthanasia, in that they are preventing that person from a lifetime of suffering and hardship?
Would they be guilty (in Gods eyes) of killing/ murder or euthanasia, in that they are preventing that person from a lifetime of suffering and hardship?
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JimG
Guest
Euthanasia is a term that is applied to direct killing of the sick in order to end their suffering. Leaving a baby to die is not euthanasia, it is infanticide, which is a form of murder. But it hardly matters what we call it, it is a disregard for human life.
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hu324b
Guest
All these people need now is to take the choice away from the sick , mentally ill , and the old and the next great genicide since abortion will begin - and it will go that way.
I have been a hospice volenteer for 15 yrs and have literally meet hundred of people who have died - and knowing these people in thier last days not one was considering the choice to take thier own life - the human spirit is strong , amazing and all seemed to have hope in their hearts right to the last moment - so who is this really coming from?
There are some conditions that I don’t speak for and my heart goes out to those people but that is more about the dangers of modern medicine keeping people alive that should of died - my worse nightmare.
When my time comes I will go when my body gives up my spirit at Gods appointed time - not me.
I have been a hospice volenteer for 15 yrs and have literally meet hundred of people who have died - and knowing these people in thier last days not one was considering the choice to take thier own life - the human spirit is strong , amazing and all seemed to have hope in their hearts right to the last moment - so who is this really coming from?
There are some conditions that I don’t speak for and my heart goes out to those people but that is more about the dangers of modern medicine keeping people alive that should of died - my worse nightmare.
When my time comes I will go when my body gives up my spirit at Gods appointed time - not me.
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mikekle
Guest
Im curious if many of the people you deal with in working for Hospice are scared of dying? I would imagine they are, I have heard alot of older people claim they are scared of dying, mainly because no one knows exactly what happens and that alone is enough to frighten most, a fear of the unknown, even the faithful would have some degree of fright, death is something new that they have never experienced, and they know they cant ask anyone for help in this regard, as no one can go with them.
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