Choice of Mass

[Rich_C]

Hi,

Before I moved to California I attended the Tradtional Latin Mass faithfully and prefer that form. Since moving out here I’ve been going to Mass that can only be described as a combination, the Ordinary of the Mass is in Latin at all Masses and the 830 Sunday also has the Propers in Latin, everything else is in English…
That’s not really a question. Please just pray for me, I guess

I’ll say a prayer that God puts you where you ought to be. If you love the Extraordinary Form of the Mass I suggest reading about the differences between the two forms of the Roman Rites from good sources. The use of Latin is one of the least significant differences between the two, to my mind. God bless!

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not tied to a church building like a lot of folks.

But only when the price of gas is low, though.

 

[Elisabeth51]

I was struck by the fact that you called the Novus Ordo Mass which uses Latin a ‘combination’ between the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine. The difference between these two forms of the mass is not language. Yes, the NO can be said in the vernacular, but it can also be celebrated in Latin, whether completely or in part. If it is just that you miss the Latin and more traditional music, by all means let your wishes be known to your priest, also, maybe start talking to a bunch of the other parishioners, maybe there are others who would like some more Latin, or who mitt at least be intrigued by the possibility of it if you talk to them about it. I’ll be sure to say some prayers for you!

Thank you. I know it’s not just the language…and I know that I am getting a small amount of combination at my parish, but the influences of those that want to go to guitars is almost stronger than the influences of those of us trying to follow what the Church says we should do. We plan on doing a church history class this summer, I think I might try and see if we can get a Latin class or a “this is what the V 2 documents say” class…change is like a snail!

I have also decided to make the effort and trust God for the gas for at least once a month to the EF Mass in Oakland.

 

[thewanderer]

Thank you. I know it’s not just the language…and I know that I am getting a small amount of combination at my parish, but the influences of those that want to go to guitars is almost stronger than the influences of those of us trying to follow what the Church says we should do. We plan on doing a church history class this summer, I think I might try and see if we can get a Latin class or a “this is what the V 2 documents say” class…change is like a snail!

I have also decided to make the effort and trust God for the gas for at least once a month to the EF Mass in Oakland.

Another thought is that if you parish has more than one Sunday mass you might be able to get one of them to be more traditional. It sounds like there is a definite split in the desires of the congregation so you might be able to get a mass more to your liking if you have enough people to back you and if you let those with different liturgical preferences fulfill them at a different mass. It would be unfair to expect those who prefer a more contemporary form of worship to have all of their practices removed… even when it is what the church prefers (so long as they are not involved in abuses) so change really has to be slow, I takes time to show people the beauty and worth of many of the older traditions. Maybe this is God’s way of helping you grow in patience! I will continue to pray for you and your sister.

 

[Elisabeth51]

Another thought is that if you parish has more than one Sunday mass you might be able to get one of them to be more traditional. It sounds like there is a definite split in the desires of the congregation so you might be able to get a mass more to your liking if you have enough people to back you and if you let those with different liturgical preferences fulfill them at a different mass. It would be unfair to expect those who prefer a more contemporary form of worship to have all of their practices removed… even when it is what the church prefers (so long as they are not involved in abuses) so change really has to be slow, I takes time to show people the beauty and worth of many of the older traditions. Maybe this is God’s way of helping you grow in patience! I will continue to pray for you and your sister.

We do the Rosary in the mornings before daily Mass, I tried to get them to do one day in Latin…you would have thought I was trying to get them to dance on the altar. Change is indeed slow, and perhaps it is the ability to take things slowly I am supposed to learn. What I hear with most of the complaints about the use of the Propers rather than hymns or use of Latin on occasion seems to be lack of understanding of the Church’s instruction/desire and I am thinking that a course after our history one would be a good idea. Of course last year I asked if I could do a training session for the altar servers so they are all “on the same page” and learn the responses so they’re not sitting there looking bored and lost and start a youth group from that core group of kids…I still don’t have permission, I have “we’ll think about it.”

Prayers are definitely appreciated!!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

If the gas tank is low and the checkbook empty I go to the local OF. Other than that I go to two different EF locations.

I’m not **tied to a church building **like a lot of folks.

People who attend their local/terrritorial parish are not “tied to a church building”, They are part of a community of their Catholic brothers and sisters. They are tied to The Church --the Body of Christ --as it is seen in their neighborhood.

In my diocese (like many others) associate priests are transferred every 3 years or so. Pastors stay longer, but associates can have quite an influence on parish life. The priest is not the only thing that makes a parish.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

Lots of confusion here … but the main thing that has been mentioned: Latin does not make a traditional Mass.

The OF can be in Latin or not or parts.

The EF is usually Latin, but can actually not be (permission for this was given in Croatia I believe).

The texts in some ways are very different. Rubrics are different.

I have been to Latin OF’s and they are very very different from the EF if you know the rubrics and pay close attention.

I, like most traditional Catholics, would easily choose an English traditional Mass (if such were promulgated) over a Latin “New Mass” any day. Traditional Catholicism isn’t a “Latin club.”

 

[Mrs_Sally]

We do the Rosary in the mornings before daily Mass, I tried to get them to do one day in Latin…you would have thought I was trying to get them to dance on the altar. Change is indeed slow, and perhaps it is the ability to take things slowly I am supposed to learn. What I hear with most of the complaints about the use of the Propers rather than hymns or use of Latin on occasion seems to be lack of understanding of the Church’s instruction/desire and I am thinking that a course after our history one would be a good idea. Of course last year I asked if I could do a training session for the altar servers so they are all “on the same page” and learn the responses so they’re not sitting there looking bored and lost and start a youth group from that core group of kids…I still don’t have permission, I have “we’ll think about it.”

Prayers are definitely appreciated!!

If you are new to the parish, or not a consistent presence there, it can indeed be difficult to bring about change. Not because people are stoggy, stuck in their (backward) ways, or anything like that. It does take time and effort to gain trust and develop a comfort level.

Think of it from another point of view, new girl breezes into town and quickly tries to start changing things all the while talking about how they did things at her last parish and checking out all the other parishes in town to see if there is one she’d like better than this one. I am NOT saying that you have done this, only saying that we all need to be careful about the impressions we give people and be understanding about reluctance to change.

 

[corsair]

Mrs. Sally,
That may be true for many, but for another large group I would disagree. I have had people tell me that Mom & Dad, Grandpa & Grandma all went to this church and nobody is going to make me leave no matter what kind of Mass is said here. That is what I’m referring to and it is very common.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

If you are new to the parish, or not a consistent presence there, it can indeed be difficult to bring about change. Not because people are stoggy, stuck in their (backward) ways, or anything like that. It does take time and effort to gain trust and develop a comfort level.

Think of it from another point of view, new girl breezes into town and quickly tries to start changing things all the while talking about how they did things at her last parish and checking out all the other parishes in town to see if there is one she’d like better than this one. I am NOT saying that you have done this, only saying that we all need to be careful about the impressions we give people and be understanding about reluctance to change.

That’s a good point, and we have to pay attention to psychology and how humans and groups of humans work.

But I feel some sympathy-frustration for Elisabeth51. After all, this isn’t just about one group with a new person. This is about a person wanting to help the group move from something objectively less good to something objectively better (reverence, preserving the Church’s Latin liturgical tradition as Vatican II mandated, etc).

 

[ProVobis]

I, like most traditional Catholics, would easily choose an English traditional Mass (if such were promulgated) over a Latin “New Mass” any day. Traditional Catholicism isn’t a “Latin club.”

I would disagree with you there. If you translate the Traditional Mass using any one of the old missal English translations, you would probably find very few differences between the old and the new in the most audible parts of the Mass. As for the rest, would it be cost justifiable to use English translations in the Offertory, for example, when you won’t be able to hear it anyway? Not to mention, of course, that English only affects about 5% of Catholic churchgoers so why would traditionalists in Poland or Italy care for the old Mass in English?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Mrs. Sally,
That may be true for many, but for another large group I would disagree. I have had people tell me that Mom & Dad, Grandpa & Grandma all went to this church and nobody is going to make me leave no matter what kind of Mass is said here. That is what I’m referring to and it is very common.

But that IS community. The Mass - as long as it is not *truly *abusive – is the Mass, whether it is in English, Latin, Polish, or Swahili. And if this is the parish that whole families have grown up in, why should they change? A priest might be reassigned tomorrow, but the Body of Christ as represented in their family and neighbors will still be there to assist in the Mass said by the new priest.

 

[Elisabeth51]

If you are new to the parish, or not a consistent presence there, it can indeed be difficult to bring about change. Not because people are stoggy, stuck in their (backward) ways, or anything like that. It does take time and effort to gain trust and develop a comfort level.

Think of it from another point of view, new girl breezes into town and quickly tries to start changing things all the while talking about how they did things at her last parish and checking out all the other parishes in town to see if there is one she’d like better than this one. I am NOT saying that you have done this, only saying that we all need to be careful about the impressions we give people and be understanding about reluctance to change.

A little, maybe. I am new…this is my second year here in California. (I know you’re just giving possible way they’re thinking–no offense taken!) I never use “we did it this way” as an argument because I don’t think that is a valid argument–I do use the church documents, which people are very unaware of (at least I seem to be running into an abundance here). Partly possibly the new thing. When I was asked to join the pastoral council last year, someone came from the Diocese and did the “what are your talents” thing…I was the only one that was in an action/implement/plan category—everyone else was think and feel. Well, thinking and feeling are great, but if you never plan anything (and they react to the idea of planning like you’re telling a child to eat green veggies) and you don’t put things into action, you spend a lot of time getting nowhere. For six years the organist has been suggesting Lenten season supper and Stations of the Cross on Friday nights–the response—we’ll think, we’ll have a committee…we did it this year because I said we had to decide, do it or not, now, this idea has been on the table for years, so decide.

I’m taking this off my original topic, sorry! I know they have made progress from where they were musically to where they are now, but it’s not just that. I also am now the bookkeeper, which changes the relationship whether I want it to or not. I was at Adoration last month and four people asked me bookkeeping questions—can you tell I’m kneeling with my head bowed in prayer??? Ugh. Excuse the venting

 

[Elisabeth51]

That’s a good point, and we have to pay attention to psychology and how humans and groups of humans work.

But I feel some sympathy-frustration for Elisabeth51. After all, this isn’t just about one group with a new person. This is about a person wanting to help the group move from something objectively less good to something objectively better (reverence, preserving the Church’s Latin liturgical tradition as Vatican II mandated, etc).

Thank you, yes

 

[Rich_C]

I would disagree with you there. If you translate the Traditional Mass using any one of the old missal English translations, you would probably find very few differences between the old and the new in the most audible parts of the Mass. As for the rest, would it be cost justifiable to use English translations in the Offertory, for example, when you won’t be able to hear it anyway? Not to mention, of course, that English only affects about 5% of Catholic churchgoers so why would traditionalists in Poland or Italy care for the old Mass in English?

I think you missed the point, he’s just going out of his way to say that the use of Latin is not the issue here.

Have you attended an EF Mass before? I’m surprised you think there is so little difference between the two missals when in fact the differences are pretty great even in the original Latin forms of each. Whatever you think of the cardinals’ conclusions, you should read the Ottaviani Intervention, which contrasts the Latin forms of the 1962 and 1970 missal and shows how dissimilar they are in many fundamental respects.

 

[ProVobis]

I think you missed the point, he’s just going out of his way to say that the use of Latin is not the issue here.

Have you attended an EF Mass before? I’m surprised you think there is so little difference between the two missals when in fact the differences are pretty great even in the original Latin forms of each. Whatever you think of the cardinals’ conclusions, you should read the Ottaviani Intervention, which contrasts the Latin forms of the 1962 and 1970 missal and shows how dissimilar they are in many fundamental respects.

I’ve read Ottaviani and I’ve read Omlor where he comments on the English Canon. I’m well aware of the differences you noted. Texts are easy to compare. But let’s try this again. When an average churchgoer goes to an EF, what does he hear besides the propers?

Gloria
Credo
Preface
Sanctus
Pater Noster
Agnus Dei

They’re exactly the same in the Latin OF. So what’s the argument? To make the whole Mass audible and translated so everyone can hear all the differences between the texts? I don’t think I want to attend an EF if it doesn’t adhere to its Trent principles.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I’ve read Ottaviani and I’ve read Omlor where he comments on the English Canon. I’m well aware of the differences you noted. Texts are easy to compare. But let’s try this again. When an average churchgoer goes to an EF, what does he hear besides the propers?

Gloria
Credo
Preface
Sanctus
Pater Noster
Agnus Dei

They’re exactly the same in the Latin OF. So what’s the argument? To make the whole Mass audible and translated so everyone can hear all the differences between the texts? I don’t think I want to attend an EF if it doesn’t adhere to its Trent principles.

Just because you don’t hear it doesn’t mean you don’t know it’s there. Also many things you see as different (so I can see prayers at the foot of the altar occurring, for example). I can see the Last Gospel even when said quietly. The readings are different and are consonant with the same readings for the same feasts and ferias of the temporal cycle that the great saints alluded to – mostly changed in the NO.

Many of those silent prayers I can hear at a dialogue Mass as well (everything except the silent Canon) - including the prayers at the foot of the altar, the Introit, and so on.

But again, I know what is there even if I don’t hear it, and it matters objectively.

So as a matter of fact - though we could have a poll to prove it - most trads would definitely pick TLM into English over NO in Latin.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I forgot to mention that I have been to Latin OF’s before and I have noticed very obvious differences between it and the EF.

Some off the top of my head:

No prayers at the foot.
Fewer signs of the Cross (way fewer).
Bowing instead of genuflection when crossing the tabernacle.
Priest did not intone Gloria separately with choir following and priest finishing quietly (same with Credo).
Everyone does the Pater Noster instead of the Priest alone until congregation adds “sed libera nos a malo.”
No triple genuflections with bells x 3 after the consecrations.
Out loud “Per Ipsum”
No Last Gospel.

This is not to mention the usual stuff that isn’t required in the OF but often occurs (concelebration, with concelebrants in alb and stole but no chasuble, most of the Liturgy of the Word from the chair rather than from the High Altar, etc).

If this were a simple no-music OF in Latin and we were comparing to a low Mass, another difference would be the prayers after Low Mass.

Another difference: I’ve been to a Pontifical Latin OF and to Pontifical EFs – there the differences are tremendous.

 

[ProVobis]

Just because you don’t hear it doesn’t mean you don’t know it’s there.

I’m just talking about the prayers you do hear. If one can’t hear the prayers or can barely hear them, why would the Church want to go to the trouble of translating those parts of the Mass into 500 vernaculars? Can’t we accept the 1962 Missal the way it is or is it your primary goal to discredit all Latin OF Masses, all of which one can hear? Take all the polls you want but remember that when the TLM was being said in the vernacular, people were leaving in droves. It just isn’t the same.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

I’m just talking about the prayers you do hear. If one can’t hear the prayers or can barely hear them, why would the Church want to go to the trouble of translating those parts of the Mass into 500 vernaculars? Can’t we accept the 1962 Missal the way it is or is it your primary goal to discredit all Latin OF Masses, all of which one can hear? Take all the polls you want but remember that when the TLM was being said in the vernacular, people were leaving in droves. It just isn’t the same.

I wasn’t comparing EF to OF in general, nor was I comparing Latin EF to vernacular EF. Nor trying to discredit anything.

I was just saying that there are many differences, observable and unobservable, between a Solemn EF and a Solemn/Reverent OF even in Latin and with chant and incense. (I prefer EF, I know others who prefer Latin OF, so my point here is not to show one is better but that there are differences).

About the silent prayers: I’m not saying they should be translated. I’m saying that the language they are in is not as important as what they say. Even if I don’t hear them, I care about what they are. They matter for the priest (and possibly other clerics and servers) and certainly God hears them.