Choice of words: Nitpicking?

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Aimee_O_Connell

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I don’t want to nitpick, so I hope I can get this clarified. Is it acceptable for (1) a priest to use the word “friends” instead of “disciples” ("…after supper He took the cup, again He gave You thanks and praise, gave the cup to his friends, and said…") ? (2) During the Agnus Dei, is it acceptable to sing “Jesus, Lamb of God… Jesus, Bread of Life… Jesus, Lamb of God”?

Thanks - Aimee
 
I cannot say anything for sure and I’m on a break from work so I’m away from my books, however, I would say especially with the Eucharistic Prayer, changing the words even one or two as you pointed out is unacceptable. Even if it was acceptable, I would say it isn’t right because instead of being the source of unity (everyone using the same words, without modification) it has a real potential for just the opposite. Secondly, yes the 12 were his friends however at that point they were there for a very particular reason which was quite serious -“Friends” doesn’t express the
fullness of this demension, rather, I think it diminishes it. As far as the Lamb of God I remember reading somewhere that this wasn’t allowed. However, I think it was from the testimony of Justin Myrter, but there is a description which describes how
as the Bread and Wine were being prepared to be distributed the Agnus Dei was repeated as it is now and it included variations similar to what you mentioned, however, I can’t say it is allowed today. Sorry if I haven’t answered your question.
 
Both of these are unacceptable. The words of the Ordinary of the Mass cannot be changed at all. If the Lamb of God is sung, the words must be exact as they are in the missal. It’s important that the Church remain unified, and if each priest makes his own changes, then the Church begins to splinter quickly.
 
Please check the following thread on this topic at this link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=61160

In this thread it is mentions that one of the Eucharistic Prayers of Reconciliation uses the word friends during the words of consecration for the Precious Blood. If this was the case it would be correct because that is how the Eucharistic Prayer is suppose to be said. If they are changing the words which are not in the Roman Missal, it would be an abuse.

matthew
 
I too wondered about the use of ‘friends’. When I looked in my bible, I found the words used by Jesus were often translated as friends. So it is probably acceptable as another translation from the latin (in which the mass is promulgated).

I’ve always had trouble with variations on ‘Lamb of God’. So I simply sing 'Lamb of God and let the cantor sing whatever he wants. He is supposed to be leading us, but we don’t have his words so I feel I can use the ones in the missal. I’m going to bring it up at the Liturgy committee and see if we can use

Lamb of God
Agnus Dei
Cordero de Dios
etc.

since we are a multi lingual parish. Just use the proper words in languages from around the world (we used 6 languages at the veration of the cross on good friday)
 
In the Latin the Agnus Dei reads

Agnus Dei qui tollis peccati mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei qui tollis peccati mundi, miserere nobis
Agnus Dei,qui tollis peccati nobis, dona nobis pacem

That translates to
Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us
Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us
Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world give us peace.

In the consecration the Latin reads

deditque discipulis suis, dicens:
which translates as

and gave It to his DISCIPLES saying

Discipulis translates as disciples or followers, not friends.

Whoever changed the words is wrong on both counts.
 
Michael Welter:
Both of these are unacceptable. The words of the Ordinary of the Mass cannot be changed at all. If the Lamb of God is sung, the words must be exact as they are in the missal. It’s important that the Church remain unified, and if each priest makes his own changes, then the Church begins to splinter quickly.
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I remember reading on another thread in this forum awhile ago (I can’t find it now) that when the Lamb of God is sung, there is more latitude allowed with the words? Does this ring a bell with anyone?
 
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Elzee:
I remember reading on another thread in this forum awhile ago (I can’t find it now) that when the Lamb of God is sung, there is more latitude allowed with the words? Does this ring a bell with anyone?
Click to expand...
I don’t know for sure but I think this must be true. I sing in the choir and we do several versions of the Mass during the year. Each score has many different verses for the Lamb of God (e.g. cup of hope, bread of life, prince of peace etc.). Surely all those Catholic composers can’t be wrong!

Holly
 
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palmas85:
Discipulis translates as disciples or followers, not friends.

Whoever changed the words is wrong on both counts.
Click to expand...
It is acceptable however to say the words friends if that is the way the Eucharistic Prayer is written like in Eucharistic Prayer of Reconciliation I. To change disciples to friends when not specifically written in the missal would be incorrect and an abuse.

matthew
 
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hollybc:
I don’t know for sure but I think this must be true. I sing in the choir and we do several versions of the Mass during the year. Each score has many different verses for the Lamb of God (e.g. cup of hope, bread of life, prince of peace etc.). Surely all those Catholic composers can’t be wrong!

Holly
Click to expand...
It is so hard to find a new catholic hymn that teaches the truth, I could more easily believe the statement Surely all those Catholic composers can’t be right! and so many of our hymnal now teach
saved by faith alone
rejection of the heirarchical church
feminist agenda

Usually not in the first verse, the verse that they must be using to determine if a song will work for a catholic liturgy, but in one of the later verses.

Recall …
the cup did not take away sins
the king of kings did not take away sins
the prince of peace did not take away sins
… the perfect sacrifice of a perfect victim, the lamb of god, took away sins.
… in the OT only a sacrifice took away sins, not wine, not the king, not the prince. A sacrifice of an unblemished lamb. The lamb of god was the fulfilment of this sacrifice and only the lamb of god takes away the sins of the world.

The prince of peace is the lamb of god, but acting as the lamb of god is what took away our sins
The cup hold the body and blood or of christ, but that did not take away our sins, only the sacrifice of the lamb in which the blood was spilled took away our sins.
The king of kings is the lamb of god, but acting as the lamb of god is what took away our sins.

Which is why this is called the Agnus Dei. That is what takes away our sins. Christ fulfilling the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
 
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Elzee:
I remember reading on another thread in this forum awhile ago (I can’t find it now) that when the Lamb of God is sung, there is more latitude allowed with the words? Does this ring a bell with anyone?
Click to expand...
I know this is done quite a bit, but it is wrong. I’m a worship leader, and once made the mistake of using “Prince of Peace” as a verse in the Agnus Dei. The Pastor made sure that I didn’t make that mistake again. :o The words of the ordinary may not be changed.
 
The Lamb of God is just that- the Lamb of God. ‘Prince of Peace’, ‘Bread of Life’, ‘King of Kings’, and the other titles for Jesus that have crept into the litany are wonderful titles for God- they are theologically sound- they are even biblically based. It isn’t the time for that, however. The purpose of the Agnus Dei is to say- THREE times- “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”. The first two are “have mercy on us”, the final one is “grant us peace”. That is the purpose of the prayer. In the Tridentine Requiem Mass, they would change the “Miserere Nobis” to “Ddona eis Requiem”, and the “Dona Nobis Pacem” to “Dona eis Requiem Sempiternam”, but the Agnus Dei part stayed the same.
 
No, it is not “nitpicking.” I looked up the four Eucharistic Prayers and did not find the word "friends. In each case, the word “disciple” is used. Why change it to read friends when the Church says to use “disciples?”

If one feels free to change the words, why not use “brothers?” Or to be even more inclusive- “brothers and sisters?” Or perhaps: “He gave it to his friends, “brothers” and countrymen.” I guess all could be accurate in a certain sense. But while we are changing stuff, why stop there?

Oh yeah, we are supposed to exercise the “obedience of faith.”

Peace,

MilesJesu
 
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