Choice?

[DPMartin]

Does choice really matter, and if it does, why? And who’s choice matters? Is there not reason for choosing, and is there not consequence of the choice?

If what is valued, is the reason for choice made? Then who’s choice is most valuable?

 

[joandarc2008]

The only things I have to respond to is this:

1. God gave us Free Will
2. The best use of our Free Will is when we use it to love Him
3. We best show our love for Him when we do his Will
4. His Will for us is to preserve Life
5. Therefore His Will is the most important Choice we can make

 

[Rence]

Choice really does matter to me, because it gives me independence and autonomy. I don’t know anyone in my life who would appreciate a choice, any choice, being taken away from them. As long as their choices do not infringe on the rights of others, they should be able to make those decisions. We are not slaves afterall. Even when dealing with children, we try to give them choices. So as an adult, I appreciate the right to make a choice in any given matter, especially life-impacting choices. I am the one who will live with that choice. I own my choices. If someone else makes that choice FOR ME, then I don’t own that decision because it wasn’t mine.

The individual’s choice matters to me. When individuals have choices, they choose their direction based on many aspects of their individual lives: environment, upbringing, culture, their own thoughts and opinions based on these. Other people’s opinions based on their own life experiences don’t matter to me when I am making a choice. There are always consequences for each and every choice, and since the person making the choice has to live with any consequences (big or small), that individual should freely make the choice. A child might choose to take away another child’s toy…the result is a time-out. But they still made that choice. Someone may choose to do their homework, and the result would be good grades. But they still made that choice.

Someone may want to marry PersonX, but their parents want them to marry PersonY. Should the parents rights trump the rights of PersonX to choose a life mate? I don’t think so. That wouldn’t work for me.

“If what is valued, is the reason for choice made?” I don’t know what that means actually. Are you asking if choice is made based on value? If so, yes, choices ARE made based on values, the individual making the choices has values based on their upbringing, beliefs, culture (their environment). The choice of the person directly involved in choosing has the most value for that person. Why would another person’s choice be valuable to someone actually involved in a given situation. For example, PersonA might choose to go to a School of the Arts. Why would it matter to PersonB (a medical student) if PersonA chose a different direction? Didn’t PersonB also make a choice?

PersonA might choose to go to trade school against the wishes of his parents, who intead want him to get an engineering degree. So whose opinion has value? PersonA, who has to live his life according to his values and beliefs? Or his parents, who won’t have to live with PersonA’s decision?

Choice is important to me and I’m a big advocate of personal freedom. Once someone tries to take freedom, independence and autonomy away from me, nothing they say has any value to me anymore because I feel they don’t value me as an individual. They would rather impose their own will on me, as if I were an object. But I am not an object. I am a living, breathing, thinking human being capable of making sound decisions that apply to and affect me, without taking another person’s freedom and rights. I take things from every aspect of my environment and pull it together to make my choices, big and small, and then I live with those choices.

 

[joandarc2008]

And I for the most part agree with you - EXCEPT for when the personal choice infringes on the rights of others. For instance abortion infringes on the rights of the unborn to life. Stem cell research and cloning infringe on the clones right to be born through natural processes and be healthy in many instances. etc. So I guess in this instance we are agreeing we are just saying it differently.

Before you mention it - gay marriage does impose on my right to bring my children up in a stable society that is one nation under God.

 

[DPMartin]

Rence
Thanks for the reply

What if you die with your choices?

Or how is it that your choices don’t effect those that are in your care in your household? It is your choice to make choices available to them or not, not their’s. And if they don’t make the choice that is your choice for them, then what?

What if none of your choices are fulfilled, even if it is do to the right of another’s choice, that could fulfill your choice? Is the rest of the world here to fulfill your choice because you have right of choice? Is anyone at all responsible for making your choices available to you? And do they have to?

 

[DPMartin]

And I for the most part agree with you - EXCEPT for when the personal choice infringes on the rights of others. For instance abortion infringes on the rights of the unborn to life. Stem cell research and cloning infringe on the clones right to be born through natural processes and be healthy in many instances. etc. So I guess in this instance we are agreeing we are just saying it differently.

Before you mention it - gay marriage does impose on my right to bring my children up in a stable society that is one nation under God.

Joandarc2008
Thanks for the reply

If you teach people that their own free will choices are so important. Then why be angry, or condemn when they make choices that are within their reach to choose according to their free will you teach them to have? Could it be, because it is not according to your free will choice?

 

[joandarc2008]

I personally believe your right to make a choice that effects ONLY you comes with emancipation. By emancipation I mean not living under someone else’s roof. That is also what the CCC says as well. Now, as far as your other question - what if you die. Absolutely not. Here we would be talking specifically about euthanasia as an example. I cannot think of one choice where you would die where it would not effect a single other person - especially that of the Lord our Father who gave us life.

 

[Rence]

Rence
Thanks for the reply

What if you die with your choices?

**I don’t know what you mean by that. Can you ask it again being more specific?
I’ll try to answer it anyway. Sometimes, when you make a choice, you can die from the choice. For example: say you have a tumor that needs to be removed. They don’t know if it’s malignant or benign, but can do a biopsy when they remove it. You have a choice: you can have the surgery, and might die from it knowing that any surgery poses certain risks just by the nature of surgery itself. Or you can choose not to have the surgery and deal with the tumor another way. So, what if you choose the surgery and you die? So then you die.
**

Or how is it that your choices don’t effect those that are in your care in your household? It is your choice to make choices available to them or not, not their’s. And if they don’t make the choice that is your choice for them, then what?

I’m not sure again what you mean by this. But I’ll try. But if you have something specific in mind, it probably would be better if you just ask Ok, choices that may or may not effect others in your care… You have the choice of losing your current job and being jobless for a while, or taking a transfer to another state. I would think that you would discuss it with your family, regardless if you’re under the same roof with them or not. Some choices are yours and yours alone IMOHO: such as choosing a major, choosing a medical treatment (keep in mind with medical decisions, your choice WILL inevitably affect someone no matter what you choose). But some choices should be discussed with others out of plain old common courtesy. But again, in the end, isn’t the choice still your own?

What if none of your choices are fulfilled, even if it is do to the right of another’s choice, that could fulfill your choice? Is the rest of the world here to fulfill your choice because you have right of choice? Is anyone at all responsible for making your choices available to you? And do they have to?

It depends. I really think you’re thinking of something specific so it’s hard for me to answer you. The point is, you should make choices in accordance to what is available to you. You can’t really choose an option that is not able to be fulfilled. For example: I have a few choices tonight: I can do some homework, I can choose not to do homework and do it tomorrow, I can do some homework and some tomorrow, or I can choose to ignore it altogether until monday, but what if I really just want to tune everything and everyone out and go to Italy for a weekend vacation. Well that last option just isn’t doable anyway, so though I have a few choices, this option isn’t workable. That doesn’t mean my choice can’t be fulfilled, it means I have to choose something that will work for me. As to others making choices available to me, they must make choices available that are feasible. Don’t they? why wouldn’t they anyway?

 

[1WATCHER]

DPMartin Choice?

---

Does choice really matter, and if it does, why? And who’s choice matters? Is there not reason for choosing, and is there not consequence of the choice?

If what is valued, is the reason for choice made? Then who’s choice is most valuable?

Yes, it matters, with out it one would and could be lost forever by the world standards. I turn to Yours choice matter’s to follow the evolved world and its short comings, or to follow the created laws written in our hearts to fulfill our destiny to follow undescribable Holy One, God and his Son Jesus with the assistance of the Holy Ghost.
And yes in the end each of us will pay our just punishment weather it be in Heaven or Hell are our only 2 places the Christ tells us it will be…

As for the value of the choice, and whom it would benifit from it? In the end only each of us as individuals would be delivered or cast out.

Rence
What if you die with your choices?

Or how is it that your choices don’t effect those that are in your care in your household? It is your choice to make choices available to them or not, not their’s. And if they don’t make the choice that is your choice for them, then what?

What if none of your choices are fulfilled, even if it is do to the right of another’s choice, that could fulfill your choice? Is the rest of the world here to fulfill your choice because you have right of choice? Is anyone at all responsible for making your choices available to you? And do they have to?

If I were to die for my choices? Their would be no greater offering than to give ones life for another especially if I were to be maryterd for the sake of God and his Son.

My choices do affect those in my care and also those to I come into contact with and my household. I chose to be the head of my house and am charged for their salvation and must teach and profess and be the example for them that they can follow so they can also be called one of his. If they refuse I can not explain the loss of joy that would follow me knowing they remove themselves from being called to give glory to God. If they did fall away I would pray unccesingly that they would turn. Not that I don’t do this presently it never end as an parent.
Max Lacado wrote a book titled It’s not about me! it may help you in understanding of the questions that you seek and no the world is not here to fulfill my happiness because I believe or know I am in the right. Lastly is anyone responsible for making my choices some have done this already. The Law is in place as to not allow me my every whim they are there for a reason, but lawmaker seem to thing they can think for us and that is not the intended purpose for my statement but are for a standard expected for all people that live here in the U.S. to meet and live by… if I don’t live to those expectations I go to jail and do my sentence imposed by the courts…

I see you are at a crossroad in your life and even though you maybe in the right and if harm were to come to you could you or would you forgive? Would you want the same one day, or when you confess you sins and shortcomings to your redeemer will the question to he… be I didn’t get my way and I am not accountable for my sin’s or my faults. Scripture fortells us to be a reflection of the Son which is a reflection of the Father and anything less will not be accepted unless we acknowledge our sins and our daily failures as we live only to reconcile with Our Lord…
Peace and Blessing to you my troubled friend…

 

[DPMartin]

Rence

Thanks very much for your efforts in trying to answer the questions.

But what of God’s Choice? If God gave choice, then surly He has Choice. Is God’s Choice for you or against you? And how is it that it could be against you, unless you insist to have your own choice in all matters you face? Who has the power to fulfill choice, you or God? Was not everything made before you were born into the world? (Human existence) If your choice revolves around your human existence; what of God’s existence with you, and you with Him?

 

[DPMartin]

1WATCHER

Thanks for the reply…
The statement of “evolved world” can be understood, but in reality, it is merely trying to return to what it once was before Jesus came, and the roman empire was given to the saints. A great falling away as some see it.

As far as punishment, Jesus already payed the price. Hence the necessity of the Cross, and the Glory of the Cross, for God’s People. Which by the way, was the Father’s Choice for the Son, in order to receive those who love Him. It’s simple, ether you value the Presence of God, (Holy Spirit) or you value your presence in the world (human existence).

Your parenthood is notable but it is the promise of God to you that will keep them in Him. It worked for Abraham, and it has been my experience also. Also; though yes one is held as an example in this situation, but we all fall short, therefore it is wise to teach they trust the Lord Jesus and His Ways not our’s. If you point to yourself, and what you do, then who is being credited? Sinners we are, no matter what, but it is what Christ did that makes us acceptable, for only that which is of the Lord is acceptable before the Lord to be in His Presence. Of God, in God, for God, should we be, therefore, His Choice that is of Him, not our’s, nor ourselves.

I see you are at a crossroad in your life and even though you maybe in the right and if harm were to come to you could you or would you forgive? Would you want the same one day, or when you confess you sins and shortcomings to your redeemer will the question to he… be I didn’t get my way and I am not accountable for my sin’s or my faults. Scripture fortells us to be a reflection of the Son which is a reflection of the Father and anything less will not be accepted unless we acknowledge our sins and our daily failures as we live only to reconcile with Our Lord…
Peace and Blessing to you my troubled friend…

Though it is appreciated, your thought on this, but it seems that it is the Church, (meaning it’s people), that is coming to the crossroads as you described.

 

[joandarc2008]

The difference between good and evil is compassion and that is where free will comes in. Evil has no compassion - Good has much. We have a choice to use it or not.Compassion makes us strong - therefore God gave us the gift of free will to give us the choice of compassion and the ability to protect ourselves from evil.

 

[o_mlly]

… What if you die with your choices?

I believe you do die with your choices. During your lifetime, your intellect, fed by your senses, informs your will which moves you to act or not act. After you die, your senses no longer inform your intellect and you are locked immortally in the frame of mind at your death. After death we are like the angels or devils – outside time and frozen in or out of a state of grace. We either chose God or rejected Him in time. Serious stuff - choices!

 

[Rence]

Rence

Thanks very much for your efforts in trying to answer the questions.

But what of God’s Choice? If God gave choice, then surly He has Choice. Is God’s Choice for you or against you? And how is it that it could be against you, unless you insist to have your own choice in all matters you face? Who has the power to fulfill choice, you or God? Was not everything made before you were born into the world? (Human existence) If your choice revolves around your human existence; what of God’s existence with you, and you with Him?

Ok, I give up, I don’t know what you’re asking or what you’re trying to say. Sorry!

 

[DPMartin]

The difference between good and evil is compassion and that is where free will comes in. Evil has no compassion - Good has much. We have a choice to use it or not.Compassion makes us strong - therefore God gave us the gift of free will to give us the choice of compassion and the ability to protect ourselves from evil.

Joandarc2008

Thanks for the reply

Ok, but isn’t it true that God is Good whether you choice Him or not? And when you pray the “The Our Father” in Mass do you not profess or request that He deliver you from evil? Isn’t that what Jesus did on the Cross? Deliver, Redeem, Restore God’s People unto Him? What is it that you can do that does that? It is God the Father’s Choice to do this. Could it be that only God, what God says, and does is Good? And if that be true, then could it be that only what God declares is Good is Good?

 

[DPMartin]

Ok, I give up, I don’t know what you’re asking or what you’re trying to say. Sorry!

Rence

thanks for the reply, honest not trying to stump you, but if I may…

If you notice when you first posted on this thread your words were angry toward that which might threaten your possession of your choice, for you. If I may quote “FOR ME”. Therefore one might consider what is more important to God, the fulfillment of His Choice for you to be fulfilled in you according to His Choice. Or your right to choice, for you. And if He be one to be angry, like your anger, because His Choice is not fulfilled, denied Him, in that which He made. Then what?

 

[tonyrey]

I believe you do die with your choices. During your lifetime, your intellect, fed by your senses, informs your will which moves you to act or not act. After you die, your senses no longer inform your intellect and you are locked immortally in the frame of mind at your death.

That would be the height of injustice - that our eternal destiny depends on one moment in time!

After death we are like the angels or devils – outside time and frozen in or out of a state of grace. We either chose God or rejected Him in time. Serious stuff - choices!

“frozen in a state of grace” is exactly the right word. An hard, icy, callous interpretation of heaven as a living death! It sounds more like hell to me.

 

[DPMartin]

I believe you do die with your choices. During your lifetime, your intellect, fed by your senses, informs your will which moves you to act or not act. After you die, your senses no longer inform your intellect and you are locked immortally in the frame of mind at your death. After death we are like the angels or devils – outside time and frozen in or out of a state of grace. We either chose God or rejected Him in time. Serious stuff - choices!

O_mlly

Thanks for the reply

Truly “Serious stuff - choices!”. But what informs you of God the Father’s Choice for you?

 

[DPMartin]

That would be the height of injustice - that our eternal destiny depends on one moment in time!
“frozen in a state of grace” is exactly the right word. An hard, icy, callous interpretation of heaven as a living death! It sounds more like hell to me.

Then what is the correct answer?

 

[o_mlly]

O_mlly

Thanks for the reply

Truly “Serious stuff - choices!”. But what informs you of God the Father’s Choice for you?

God is always the protaganist in our salvation. In every moral choice we make, God self-communicates (actual grace) through our conscience the good choice. All good comes from God. We can either act on God’s good advice or shatter it.