Choice?

[o_mlly]

That would be the height of injustice - that our eternal destiny depends on one moment in time!
“frozen in a state of grace” is exactly the right word. An hard, icy, callous interpretation of heaven as a living death! It sounds more like hell to me.

You identify yourself as “Catholic” so I assume our Catechism instructs you.

1035 … Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.

 

[tonyrey]

You identify yourself as “Catholic” so I assume our Catechism instructs you.

1035 … Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.

Can you name anyone who has died in a state of mortal sin?

 

[tonyrey]

That would be the height of injustice - that our eternal destiny depends on one moment in time!

Then what is the correct answer?
Whether we are in heaven or hell the last thing we are is “frozen”. After all, hell is associated with fire! And heaven with a feast…

We are created** in God’s image** with the power of free will which does not vanish when we die. Otherwise we would be incapable of love…

 

[tonyrey]

Then what is the correct answer?

Whether we are in heaven or hell the last thing we are is “frozen”. After all, hell is associated with fire! And heaven with a feast…

We are created** in God’s image** with the power of free will which does not vanish when we die. Otherwise we would be incapable of love…

 

[Rence]

Rence

thanks for the reply, honest not trying to stump you, but if I may…

If you notice when you first posted on this thread your words were angry toward that which might threaten your possession of your choice, for you. If I may quote “FOR ME”. Therefore one might consider what is more important to God, the fulfillment of His Choice for you to be fulfilled in you according to His Choice. Or your right to choice, for you. And if He be one to be angry, like your anger, because His Choice is not fulfilled, denied Him, in that which He made. Then what?

Sometimes it’s hard to convey what your thoughts are in writing. I guess I didn’t make myself clear enough. I’m not angry at all. I’m adamant. There’s a difference. Why would I get angry? If my choice was taken away, THEN I’d get angry, but I have available to me all the choices I need.

God doesn’t need humans to fulfill HIS choice, he’s God. He can do anything. We can’t stump God. We can’t dupe God. God gave us our lives to live, and live to our fullest. And he gave us free will with which to make those choices. He also expects us to follow our conscience. Mere mortal’s choices don’t fullfil or not fullfil God. He’s too above us to be dependent on our decisions for our lives.

 

[o_mlly]

Can you name anyone who has died in a state of mortal sin?

The Church does not teach that any particular person died in a state of mortal sin. Such knowledge is beyond anyone but the person and God. But the rightful absence of naming any particulars does not negate the general teaching on the condition of those who at their death go to hell, does it?

 

[o_mlly]

Whether we are in heaven or hell the last thing we are is “frozen”. After all, hell is associated with fire! And heaven with a feast…

We are created** in God’s image** with the power of free will which does not vanish when we die. Otherwise we would be incapable of love…

Perhaps you have thin blood for you take the analogy of “frozen” as a negative. Others may see the analogy, as I do, as on of being preserved from corruption as meat is in the freezer.

You are correct that neither the angels nor humans in heaven lose the gift of a rational free will. With the Beatific vision, however, our reason is perfected through grace to will only to remain as we are – with our Creator.

 

[tonyrey]

Perhaps you have thin blood for you take the analogy of “frozen” as a negative. Others may see the analogy, as I do, as on of being preserved from corruption as meat is in the freezer.

The difference being that meat does not remain in the freezer indefinitely!

You are correct that neither the angels nor humans in heaven lose the gift of a rational free will. With the Beatific vision, however, our reason is perfected through grace to will only to remain as we are – with our Creator.

In that case we are frozen and compelled to remain as we are - unlike Jesus who chose of His own free will to die for us… In heaven we do not remain as we are. That would be a static existence. Love is dynamic, creative and, above all, an expression of our free will.

If Lucifer could revolt against God surely others can?

 

[o_mlly]

The difference being that meat does not remain in the freezer indefinitely!

An analogy by definition points to but does not define the issue. Arguing with the analogy itself doesn’t move us along with the issue, does it?

In that case we are frozen and compelled to remain as we are - unlike Jesus who chose of His own free will to die for us… In heaven we do not remain as we are. That would be a static existence. Love is dynamic, creative and, above all, an expression of our free will.

If Lucifer could revolt against God surely others can?

Without the Beatific vision, God remains hidden from his creatures. It is only in ignorance absent faith that we can reasonably reject unity with our Maker. To be frozen is not to be compelled if we choose to remain. Once again, I refer you to our Catechism. If we “are like God forever” we are in eternity and we do not change for change requires us to be in time.

1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face …

 

[tonyrey]

Without the Beatific vision, God remains hidden from his creatures. It is only in ignorance absent faith that we can reasonably reject unity with our Maker. To be frozen is not to be compelled if we choose to remain. Once again, I refer you to our Catechism. If we “are like God forever” we are in eternity and we do not change for change requires us to be in time.

Like God we shall not change but we shall cause changes to occur. He created the universe because immutability does not entail inactivity. Otherwise He and we would be static even though love is dynamic and creative. It is absurd to think either God or we are spiritually inactive in heaven. We pray to the saints to intercede for us precisely because we believe they do so on our behalf.

1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face …

If that is so Lucifer could not have seen God face to face…

 

[o_mlly]

Like God we shall not change but we shall cause changes to occur. He created the universe because immutability does not entail inactivity. Otherwise He and we would be static even though love is dynamic and creative. It is absurd to think either God or we are spiritually inactive in heaven. We pray to the saints to intercede for us precisely because we believe they do so on our behalf.

Have you read “Deus Caritas Est (God is Love)”? When we are one with God, we triumphant saints will love as God does: we will wish that all men be saved. But Jesus and His Holy Spirit do the intercessing and the saving.

2634 Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners.112 He is "able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them."113 The Holy Spirit "himself intercedes for us . . . and intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."114

2635 Since Abraham, intercession - asking on behalf of another has been characteristic of a heart attuned to God’s mercy. In the age of the Church, Christian intercession participates in Christ’s, as an expression of the communion of saints. In intercession, he who prays looks “not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others,” even to the point of praying for those who do him harm.115

If that is so Lucifer could not have seen God face to face… confused.

I see you’re following the “So who tempted Lucifer?” thread. I suggest you re-read my post #11.

 

[tonyrey]

Like God we shall not change but we shall cause changes to occur. He created the universe because immutability does not entail inactivity. Otherwise He and we would be static even though love is dynamic and creative. It is absurd to think either God or we are spiritually inactive in heaven. We pray to the saints to intercede for us precisely because we believe they do so on our behalf.

To love** as **God does is not to lose our identity and individuality. The Church teaches that **the intercession of the saints in heaven is “their most exalted service to God’s plan” **(Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 2683) — no matter how great was their work on earth. St. Dominic taught on his death bed: “Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life” (CCC, 956).

I see you’re following the “So who tempted Lucifer?” thread. I suggest you re-read my post #11.

You are entitled to hypothesize but it remains a hypothesis…

 

[twinc]

In all the posts and in the thrusts and counters it seems to me the the full implications of The Fall are not realised or accepted nor how sin cuts us off from God and the perfection that once was ours before The Fall,to put it even better cuts God and perfection off from us.We as sinners and the devils are and have been in a long and relentless war with and against God.We have been and are called to surrender[unconditional].We are flawed,warped,fragmented etc.We were created with freewill to choose etc but we are now in the situation so well described by Paul at Rmns.7:14-25 - more later - twinc

 

[DPMartin]

In all the posts and in the thrusts and counters it seems to me the the full implications of The Fall are not realised or accepted nor how sin cuts us off from God and the perfection that once was ours before The Fall,to put it even better cuts God and perfection off from us.We as sinners and the devils are and have been in a long and relentless war with and against God.We have been and are called to surrender[unconditional].We are flawed,warped,fragmented etc.We were created with freewill to choose etc but we are now in the situation so well described by Paul at Rmns.7:14-25 - more later - twinc

Hence God’s Choice for us restored by Jesus Christ the Perfection that is acceptable before God, that is of God, that we may be with God. For our will shall not be done, for we agree that God the Father’s Will be done. For He, Jesus, has been chosen from the beginning, and shall remain in the end whether any one choose Him or not. Therefore your choice is only important to you, God’s Choice remains the same no matter what. So one essentially agrees and submits to God’s Choice, for there shall be no other Choice but God’s Choice when He Come.

thanks twinc

 

[joandarc2008]

Joandarc2008

Thanks for the reply

Ok, but isn’t it true that God is Good whether you choice Him or not? And when you pray the “The Our Father” in Mass do you not profess or request that He deliver you from evil? Isn’t that what Jesus did on the Cross? Deliver, Redeem, Restore God’s People unto Him? What is it that you can do that does that? It is God the Father’s Choice to do this. Could it be that only God, what God says, and does is Good? And if that be true, then could it be that only what God declares is Good is Good?

OK-

1- Yes, it is your choice to choose him or not and live with the consequences. Literally Hell.

2- Remember that the Our Father is a prayer of pentinence - done in the Rite of Pentinence during Eucharist to relieve us of venial sin after we ask for forgiveness or done as penance after Reconciliation

3- God already declared us Good - look at Genesis- It is us with the introduction of Original Sin that we started to drift away from Him. You can also see through several scriptural passages that Faith without works is Dead.

 

[DPMartin]

God is always the protaganist in our salvation. ** In every moral choice we make,** God self-communicates (actual grace) through our conscience the good choice. All good comes from God. We can either act on God’s good advice or shatter it.

o_mlly

thanks for the reply

But did Jesus honor those who reasoned right and wrong good and evil with Him? Or did Jesus honor those who came in Faith? Therefore what truly is morality? Jesus Christ has shown us, that He honors what? Is it the knowledge of good and evil, or Faith, Hope and Love of Him.

 

[o_mlly]

o_mlly

thanks for the reply

But did Jesus honor those who reasoned right and wrong good and evil with Him? Or did Jesus honor those who came in Faith? Therefore what truly is morality? Jesus Christ has shown us, that He honors what? Is it the knowledge of good and evil, or Faith, Hope and Love of Him.

Luke 18:19.

 

[DPMartin]

OK-

1- Yes, it is your choice to choose him or not and live with the consequences. Literally Hell.

2- Remember that the Our Father is a prayer of pentinence - done in the Rite of Pentinence during Eucharist to relieve us of venial sin after we ask for forgiveness or done as penance after Reconciliation

3- God already declared us Good - look at Genesis- It is us with the introduction of Original Sin that we started to drift away from Him. You can also see through several scriptural passages that Faith without works is Dead.

Joandarc2008

Correct; repentance is a daily thing that is requested by you that the Lord show you that which need be repented of, and burn it out with His Holy Spirit (His Presence) and replace it with His Truth, in order to make you more effective for the fruits of His Labor. The sacrifice or not valuing one’s own choices for His Choice, to value His Choice which is of Him. Did not Jesus teach that one must give up his life in order to receive Life. Therefore the price to win Life for one’s soul. Is not the price the same for all souls. Therefore for him who wins souls, the price is the same.

And yes all things made are good for God’s purpose, and God’s purpose alone.

 

[twinc]

It seems besides original sin which afflicts humans in common The Fall also afflicted humans differently in their physical and mental make up for some professing themselves to be wise become fools[Rmns.1:22].In this wise even if it is shown we dont have choice and never have had choice,for some unknown reason some will still insist we have choice.So lets just take the majors in all our lives.We had no choice when we were born or where or to whom-no choice in the colour of our skin or eyes or hair or anything-no choice as to whether male or female-no choice tall or short-no choice able or disabled-no choice pretty/handsome or ugly-no choice religion etc - twinc

 

[twinc]

It seems besides original sin which afflicts humans in common The Fall also afflicted humans differently in their physical and mental make up for some professing themselves to be wise become fools[Rmns.1:22].In this wise even if it is shown we dont have choice and never have had choice,for some unknown reason some will still insist we have choice.So lets just take the majors in all our lives.We had no choice when we were born or where or to whom-no choice in the colour of our skin or eyes or hair or anything-no choice as to whether male or female-no choice tall or short-no choice able or disabled-no choice pretty/handsome or ugly-no choice religion etc - twinc

would anyone like to add to the list like - no choice brainy or dumb - rich or poor not to mention physical disabilites etc - twinc