Choir Conundrum

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emesine

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I attend a small parish in a small town, with one Mass on Sunday. We do not have a music director. There is a men’s only choir that has been in existence since the mid 1800s. They sing every Sunday throughout the winter, and every feast day.

My wife is a trained singer, and she wants to sing- not just summers (the days the men’s choir does not want) but all year and on feast days. Being a woman, she is not eligible for the men’s choir. She has asked for the opportunity of singing for a few Sundays, but the Men’s choir is unwilling to share any of “their” Sundays.

There are two issues, really. 1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts. 2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.

We are working to get the situation changed, but are expecting a significant fight. Can anyone suggest how we should approach our Bishop, if that becomes necessary? Is there an office of women’s rights at the USCCB? Is there an office of Women’s rights at the Vatican?

Can anyone offer me some guidance?

Thanks!
 
You should speak to your pastor first. Going directly to the bishop may create animosity with your pastor who will make the final decision.

It’s unlikely the bishop will intervene. But he may well let the pastor know you went over his head. I’ve seen this scenario time and time again. The USCCB will almost certainly direct you back to your pastor. I’ve seen that, too.

Good luck with the effort. My guess is that your pastor will be quite happy to help your wife share her gifts. It’s certainly worth addressing. Many good things can come from change.
 
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Well, ultimately it’s all down to the pastor. No one has a right to sing at Mass. Technically all that’s needed is the priest. The priest is in charge of the liturgy so he should make the call. Does that always work in reality? No, there is always politics.

I suppose one thing to keep in mind is that this men’s choir has been doing this for over a 100 years. Every Sunday and feast day. Just them. That’s a long tradition to break. I would try to keep that in mind and try not to get too angry when you meet opposition. They have done a lot of work singing for every Mass.

But, that being said, I think your wife should be able to sing. Are the men being unreasonable? Well, since I’m not there and don’t know the specifics I can’t really say. I don’t see a few Sundays here and there throughout the year with your wife singing being a problem, maybe a once a month. She is a trained singer after all. I would just go about it quietly and try not to make too much of a fuss. Maybe sing those Sundays in the Summer when the Men’s choir does not want to. Start small and work up. Because one thing you don’t want to do is burn bridges with the other half of the singing element, the men’s choir.

My advice: Don’t go charging in their and getting everyone mad at you and your wife. As much as it might be unjust, start small.
 
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Hi,
Can she get a woman’s choir going? They sing same times. Guys get two songs. Girls get two songs.
Take turns, etc.
In Christ’s Love
Tweedlealice
 
I wish you have not turned this issue into a women’s right. You would make it more difficult as it already is.

This is mainly due to the all-men choir, which serves in this parish for a very long time already. That’s make it difficult to change as people so get entrenched with it.

It makes it even harder to consider if you asked to sing solo, since it will be not a choir anymore.

I can understand your predicament, but the decision whether to change the choir would usually rest on the pastor/rector of the parish.

Get his agreement if another choir can be set up and to serve the mass perhaps alternately to the existing men choir.

God bless.
 
Thread lightly. We all want to praise God in everything we say and do. At the same time, we do not want to hurt the feelings of others.
Seems like a sit down is in order between all people involved.
Certainly some sort of arrangement or compromise should be possible.
Pray first and then try to arrange a meeting of interested parties.
 
I agree with what was said above - Don’t involve the bishop unless completely nessecary. Discuss with you pastor first and try to find common ground.
 
YourNameHere…

Interesting advice.

So far we have asked and received our Pastor’s permission to sing for Pentecost, May 20. However, a few weeks later we received a message from the parish secretary that Father wants us to “work things out on our own,” and that the Men’s Choir is unwilling our answer from the parish secretary was that the Men’s Choir is unwilling to share one of “their” Sundays. The solution is extremely simple in my eyes, the Pastor needs to man up and dictate who is singing on what days, or assign someone to do this task. Allowing his parishioners to “work things out on their own” just means that the biggest bully of the group is going to get his way.

We have negotiated with other parties at the church who sing, and they are happy to discuss and share. The only group who refuses to share is the Men’s Choir. That’s an interesting avenue- ask the Priest to set up a meeting for all concerned to discuss who is going to sing when.

In terms of prayer, God’s answer has been extremely simple. Fight. I’ve put you here specifically to change this situation.

This situation is about fairness, but it bears mentioning that this choir is absolutely terrible, actually painful to listen to. My daughters have started bringing earplugs to mass. Again, the point here is fairness, not the quality of the music, but I want to make sure it is clear we are not trying to take down a venerable an beautiful choral tradition.
 
emesine said:
Men’s Choir is unwilling our answer from the parish secretary was that the Men’s Choir is unwilling to share one of “their” Sundays
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Pastors are very busy. They depend on their staff to help. To refuse to answer the Secretary is childish.
 
It’s primarily up to the pastor.

No one has a right to serve in the Mass- It’s the pastor’s perogative about who serves at the altar, who can lector, who can be in the choir, etc.
 
Hi LittleLady-

I mis-typed my post. The Men’s Choir certainly did answer the parish secretary, their answer was this is our Sunday and we aren’t sharing.
 
I wish my church had a choir willing to sing every week…men, women, teens, anyone who will joyfully serve their Lord and the church and share their gifts…without being paid for it. Paying a wonderful organist and choir director is totally necessary. Everyone deserves to be able to support themselves and their family, and the music is stunning, but paying people to be in a church choir seems out of order. Just venting…
 
Hi Maximilian,

I couldn’t agree more. He needs to make a list of who is singing and when, or he needs to hire a music director to do this for him. The core of the problem here is that the Pastor is not taking a stand on this issue, just letting people “work out things on their own.” We wouldn’t at all mind to simply receive a clear yes or no from our Priest. I don’t think he wants upset anyone.
 
Whew, good!!!

Could perhaps the choir do the “hymns/songs” and your wife do the responsoral psalm?
 
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Music in the parish often seems to be a huge battle. If you’re in a small town, you may end up playing small town politics: the more prominent families get their way.
It may be an issue where angels fear to tread, never mind mere mortal pastors! Best wishes working this out-- I wouldn’t make it a hill to die on myself.
 
It may be that due to other commitments one or more members of the men’s choir can only sing on the Sundays and feast days they are currently singing on. That means “sharing” with your wife would mean less singing for those members. Would it not be selfish on your part to insist that they sing less just so your wife can sing more?

It is a good thing that she wants to sing more and that she asked but, now that she has asked the men’s choir and they have decided not to accommodate her, she should be content with singing in the summer and sharing with the more accommodating parties.
 
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emesine said:
I attend a small parish in a small town, with one Mass on Sunday. We do not have a music director. There is a men’s only choir that has been in existence since the mid 1800s. They sing every Sunday throughout the winter, and every feast day.

My wife is a trained singer, and she wants to sing- not just summers (the days the men’s choir does not want) but all year and on feast days. Being a woman, she is not eligible for the men’s choir. She has asked for the opportunity of singing for a few Sundays, but the Men’s choir is unwilling to share any of “their” Sundays.

There are two issues, really. 1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts. 2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.

We are working to get the situation changed, but are expecting a significant fight. Can anyone suggest how we should approach our Bishop, if that becomes necessary? Is there an office of women’s rights at the USCCB? Is there an office of Women’s rights at the Vatican?

Can anyone offer me some guidance?

Thanks!
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At this point, even if your wife fights enough and they let her join, it will not be a pleasant experience. They will make it difficult for her, be rude, and hope that she just leaves. I am not agreeing with this men’s only music ministry and the pastor’s non- involvement. However:

Not meaning to be offensive, but it seems that both the men’s group and your wife are being stubborn over this. The Men: not during the winter months, just the summer months! Your wife: no! I want to sing during the winter months too! It’s not worth a fight…the pastor and bishop will not like it. Just let the guys do their thing and let your wife lead the congregation in the summer, so really she doesn’t have “zero” opportunity to sing on Sundays and feasts. There are Sundays and Feasts during the summer too.

Yes, I think this conundrum is wrong, but it’s not worth the fight. Your wife will ultimately feel misery over it all, from the the pastor, the men’s “club” and perhaps some parishioners.
 
So, to recap advice here:
  1. Stay professional, keep things local and with the Priest if at all possible. Going to the diocese is not likely to help.
  2. Fighting this battle at all is going to be unpleasant, and it might not be worth the effort.
  3. Be happy with what you have, enjoy what you have achieved. You’re lucky that your church is letting you sing as a family group at all. You might end up getting an unpleasant women’s choir or entrance into the men’s choir, but it might cost you the joy of singing at mass with you wife and children.
  4. Try to meet and coordinate with other singers in the church. Network and see what you can work out.
  5. It’s ultimately up to the Priest.
  6. Love the idea of a sit down between all parties who wish to sing at this parish.
  7. Arguing for women’s rights is not likely to work in this situation.
Thank you all!
 
emesine said:
Can anyone suggest how we should approach our Bishop, if that becomes necessary?
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You don’t. Because this is not something the bishop is going to get involved in. The pastor is the head liturgist in his parish. If he wants to say the mass in Latin, if he wants to say it ad orientem, if he wants only boy altar servers, if he wants a men’s choir, that is all up to him. If he doesn’t “want“ these things, but he allows them, it’s the same thing.
emesine said:
Is there an office of women’s rights at the USCCB? Is there an office of Women’s rights at the Vatican?
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This is not a women’s rights issue. If you frame it that way, I don’t think people take you seriously. I don’t, and I’m a woman.

No one has a “right“ to serve at mass. Everyone serves at the discretion of the pastor. It would serve you and your wife well to remember that.

Who sings at mass is not something to fight over. I can appreciate that your wife wants to use her talents, but she can use them equally singing from the pew. She can sing on the weekends that the male choir does not sing. Unless the pastor changes things, it is not going to change. He is not willing to do that. You need to accept his decision.
 
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Wow, 1ke.

First off, the Priest wants things changed as much as we do. He absolutely hates the Men’s Choir.

Secondly, we have a right to ask our Pastor to sing at church, we have a right to be answered in a respectful manner, and we have a right to be treated equally to other groups in the church. If our Pastor does not treat us with respect, or if he is treating others with preference over us, then we can and should appeal to our Bishop, or to Rome if need be.
 
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