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adrift
Guest
I would like to see more on this too. I didn’t see anyone else start this so here goes.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
When they renovated our cathedral in the mid-60s, the choir loft and pipe organ was removed. When I started singing in the choir in '83, we had three pews on a raised dais near the right transept and we had an electronic organ which still used tubes. In 1987, said organ literally went up in smoke during a choir memember’s wedding. It could not be repaired.
So, out went the pews and in came the chairs. We started facing the congregation. We used a clavinova, a harpsichord, and finally a baby grand. We knew that we would be celebrating our church’s 200th anniversary in 1992. So, Father and the Bishop said - let’s put in a new pipe organ and a choir loft. It was done in 1992.
I love being up in the loft. I did not like being the center of attraction when we were up front. In addition, the accoustics for the choir are awesome since the roofline focuses our sound towards the altar.
So, out went the pews and in came the chairs. We started facing the congregation. We used a clavinova, a harpsichord, and finally a baby grand. We knew that we would be celebrating our church’s 200th anniversary in 1992. So, Father and the Bishop said - let’s put in a new pipe organ and a choir loft. It was done in 1992.
I love being up in the loft. I did not like being the center of attraction when we were up front. In addition, the accoustics for the choir are awesome since the roofline focuses our sound towards the altar.
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adrift
Guest
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brotherhrolf
Guest
This question has been asked in my own parish. It was explained to us that we are part of the assembly. We process in, we process out. We line the side aisles and sing a congregational hymn of thanksgiving after Communion. Since the cathedral choir in St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans does the same thing, I suspect that this explanation may be satisfactory.
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puzzleannie
Guest
in an older church that was built with a choir loft, and a pipe organ installed accordingly, the acoustics were probably designed for that arrangement, and any renovation that ignores those acoustic features is going to have perpetual unsolvable acoustic problems and unless the renovation guts the interior and the redesign matches the acoustical features with the new location for the choir and organ, the best sound system will never overcome the result of changing the design. This is the wisdom of my brother who overhalls church organs as a “professional hobby” and DD and SIL who are acousticians (yes, I did not know that was a bona fide job, either).
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Annie, I’ve seen pictures before and after of my church. Unfortunately none of the before are online.
[IMG ]http://www.neworleanschurches.com/br_stjos/stjoscath3.jpg[/IMG]
This picture is taken directly below the choir loft - you can just see the edge of the loft. Prior to the construction of the choir loft we were up by the cantor’s stand on the right side of the transept.
[IMG ]http://www.neworleanschurches.com/br_stjos/stjoscath3.jpg[/IMG]
This picture is taken directly below the choir loft - you can just see the edge of the loft. Prior to the construction of the choir loft we were up by the cantor’s stand on the right side of the transept.
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puzzleannie
Guest
had a chance to hear the restored organ at the Cathedral in Baton Rouge (St. Joseph?) on our last trip down here, it was gorgeous. to me the music most fully fulfills its role in service of the liturgy rather than dominating it, when the organist and choir are in the loft and the sound is coming from there, without the visual distraction away from the altar. I believe the change is envisioned by the same logic that has changed the orientation of the priest and altar vis a vis the people, and is discordant (in more than one sense) for people in my generation for that reason.
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PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
It has often been said that when the docuements of Vatican II said that the choir and musicians should be part of the assembly, that forbid the use of lofts.
So, I ask this question: When you go to the theatre to see a play and sit in the balcony seating, are you any less part of the audience? When you go to a baseball game and sit in the upper deck, are you somehow divorced from all the rest of the fans in attendence? In churches where the common practice is to use the loft as “overflow seating”, are those people sitting just a little elevated not part of the rest of the congreagation? How about the people sitting on the left side of the aisle - they are surely not part of the congregation, because they are physically seperated by 5 feet from the right side, are they not?
A choir comprised of singers from the parish community that takes its place sitting in the same church building during the mass and that is fully participating in the mass IS a part of the liturgical assembly that is gathered, even if they are sitting a few feet higher and to the rear of everyone else.
There are plenty of good reasons - logistical reasons - why it is preferrable to have the choir in the loft. Even while trying to be as reverent as possible and be part of the mass, there is often just no getting around the need for the director to go around during the homily and whisper to everyone “remember, we’re skipping verse 3during the preparation song”. Or to drive the tempo home for good one last time during the intercessions by standing in front of the choir and motioning 1-2-3. Or to have to hand out music in a hurry, realizing that somehow you neglected to pass it out at the rehersal.
Add to that the fact that many churches, especially older ones, were built so that the accostics support sung voices best when they are comming from the loft space.
A loft, when the use of one is possible, just makes the most sense.
So, I ask this question: When you go to the theatre to see a play and sit in the balcony seating, are you any less part of the audience? When you go to a baseball game and sit in the upper deck, are you somehow divorced from all the rest of the fans in attendence? In churches where the common practice is to use the loft as “overflow seating”, are those people sitting just a little elevated not part of the rest of the congreagation? How about the people sitting on the left side of the aisle - they are surely not part of the congregation, because they are physically seperated by 5 feet from the right side, are they not?
A choir comprised of singers from the parish community that takes its place sitting in the same church building during the mass and that is fully participating in the mass IS a part of the liturgical assembly that is gathered, even if they are sitting a few feet higher and to the rear of everyone else.
There are plenty of good reasons - logistical reasons - why it is preferrable to have the choir in the loft. Even while trying to be as reverent as possible and be part of the mass, there is often just no getting around the need for the director to go around during the homily and whisper to everyone “remember, we’re skipping verse 3during the preparation song”. Or to drive the tempo home for good one last time during the intercessions by standing in front of the choir and motioning 1-2-3. Or to have to hand out music in a hurry, realizing that somehow you neglected to pass it out at the rehersal.
Add to that the fact that many churches, especially older ones, were built so that the accostics support sung voices best when they are comming from the loft space.
A loft, when the use of one is possible, just makes the most sense.
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puzzleannie
Guest
speaking humbly as a former choir member with no other musical training, when the choir is above and behind the assembly, sitting “in back of church” as it were, the sound, joined with that of the people, is more truly coming from that assembly, than it is when the choir is in front of and to the side of the assembly. If the logic were really that the sound come from the assembly, choir members would be dispersed throughout the pews.
there is a precedent, however, for the choir on either side of the altar, since that is the original location of the choir, which properly refers to the monks gathered in their places chanting the offices and parts of the Mass (without an organ, in that time period).
there is a precedent, however, for the choir on either side of the altar, since that is the original location of the choir, which properly refers to the monks gathered in their places chanting the offices and parts of the Mass (without an organ, in that time period).
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bknebel
Guest
As a director of a Choir, I feel that the loft is the perfect location, because it meets the GIRM requirements of being able to be visibly seen but yet not detract from the Mass… it also allows me to know how things are going in the liturgy, allows the choir to ‘shuffle positions’ for certain selections and such and not be a distraction. It also helps keep church congestion down. I have been to a neighboring parish here that has a MASSIVE-sized loft and put the choir up front. It looks crowded up by the sanctuary. The loft isn’t used so its now dead space.
And my two cents worth- we come to Mass to Worship Christ as a group, so if the choir is out of sight, thats one less distraction from Christ!
And my two cents worth- we come to Mass to Worship Christ as a group, so if the choir is out of sight, thats one less distraction from Christ!
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Nice to know I may have been heard by someone from CAF. Thanks Annie! It is indeed St. Joseph’s.
And, yes, I am glad to be back in the loft. Our song is an act of worship not of performance. We are there to be heard not seen.
And, yes, I am glad to be back in the loft. Our song is an act of worship not of performance. We are there to be heard not seen.
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adrift
Guest
So many things were claimed to be because of Vatican II. Does anyone have documentation?
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orgel_maestro
Guest
O my gosh! As an organist myelf, I am sooooooooo happy your church put in a pipe organ! Mozart himself called it the King of Instruments, of course no electronic organ can ever compare to a nice pipe organ.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Our parish has a choir loft, which I guess means the building is old enough to have one.
My son’s parish, in a very modern building that doesn’t even have holy water cups at the entrance (abandoned in favor of water from the font located nearby) has the altar set at an angle with the choir off in the left corner. It feels very odd to me, but then I’m a bit of a traditionalist, especially when it comes to music.
In our parish, the choir, although “up there” seems very much a part of the assembly. In my son’s more “modern” parish, the choir seems “over there” and not really a part of the assembly. So I am thinking the “new way” doesn’t really work as it might have been intended.
My son’s parish, in a very modern building that doesn’t even have holy water cups at the entrance (abandoned in favor of water from the font located nearby) has the altar set at an angle with the choir off in the left corner. It feels very odd to me, but then I’m a bit of a traditionalist, especially when it comes to music.
In our parish, the choir, although “up there” seems very much a part of the assembly. In my son’s more “modern” parish, the choir seems “over there” and not really a part of the assembly. So I am thinking the “new way” doesn’t really work as it might have been intended.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
Fifteen years ago, as organist of my home-town parish, I fought constantly to have their electronic organ removed from the sanctuary and put into the loft. The church is a small, traditionally-shaped rectangular building with a cramped sanctuary, while the choir loft is quite large. The pastor had no opposition to moving the organ, but the older musicians insisted that Vatican II mandated the music to be in front. Presenting them with the actual words of the documents didn’t help – apparently some past bishop had mandated that choir lofts be abandoned (we lost our communion rail by episcopal fiat as well, despite the protestations of the brave pastor, but that’s another story).
I eventually moved away, and so did the pastor. The new pastor wanted the music in front where it would supposedly help the singing. After a new keyboard (egad!) was purchased, someone convinced the pastor that the old organ was broken and had it put into the loft (nothing was wrong with it, other than the fact that it’s a nasty 1970’s Baldwin). The current pastor (Pastor 3) would rather have all the musicians in the loft and loves to hear the organ played, but the present musicians refuse to go up there and prefer their anemic little keyboard. He lets them stay in front because they threaten to quit otherwise.
On the other hand, in a different parish where my friend had been appointed pastor, he simply pushed the piano from the sanctuary (actually, we pushed it) into the choir loft in his first week on the job, and informed the choir that they would be in the loft from now on. Their reaction was quite different from the other parish in that they were delighted, and even started to use the electronic organ that had been donated 20 years before and never used.
I eventually moved away, and so did the pastor. The new pastor wanted the music in front where it would supposedly help the singing. After a new keyboard (egad!) was purchased, someone convinced the pastor that the old organ was broken and had it put into the loft (nothing was wrong with it, other than the fact that it’s a nasty 1970’s Baldwin). The current pastor (Pastor 3) would rather have all the musicians in the loft and loves to hear the organ played, but the present musicians refuse to go up there and prefer their anemic little keyboard. He lets them stay in front because they threaten to quit otherwise.
On the other hand, in a different parish where my friend had been appointed pastor, he simply pushed the piano from the sanctuary (actually, we pushed it) into the choir loft in his first week on the job, and informed the choir that they would be in the loft from now on. Their reaction was quite different from the other parish in that they were delighted, and even started to use the electronic organ that had been donated 20 years before and never used.
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Cat
Guest
Here is a link to the Church where I play piano:
65.36.195.32/index.asp
There is a picture slide show to the right. It will scroll eventually to our sanctuary.
IMO, this hundred year-old building is the most beautiful church in our city!
And the people are even more beautiful than the church building. The priest calls it, “The church with a heart,” and he is telling the truth.
There is a choir loft, but it is seldom used because the elderly people in the church can’t climb the steps.
I think that’s the one drawback to having a choir loft in an older church. There is an elevator in the church, but only from the basement to the sanctuary. It would be horribly expensive to install the elevator to the choir loft, too.
Sad, isn’t it.
I hope that the church will continue to thrive and perhaps a new generation of young people will start up the choir again and be able to clambor up those steps.
65.36.195.32/index.asp
There is a picture slide show to the right. It will scroll eventually to our sanctuary.
IMO, this hundred year-old building is the most beautiful church in our city!
And the people are even more beautiful than the church building. The priest calls it, “The church with a heart,” and he is telling the truth.
There is a choir loft, but it is seldom used because the elderly people in the church can’t climb the steps.
I think that’s the one drawback to having a choir loft in an older church. There is an elevator in the church, but only from the basement to the sanctuary. It would be horribly expensive to install the elevator to the choir loft, too.
Sad, isn’t it.
I hope that the church will continue to thrive and perhaps a new generation of young people will start up the choir again and be able to clambor up those steps.
M
Mary1973
Guest
We have a loft also but we sit in the sanctuary to the right of the priest. I don’t like being there. I once asked the pastor about moving back to the loft but he was against it. I do have an internet friend who is confined to a wheelchair. As she points out, she would not be able to be in the choir because she can’t get up the steps. So, that is a consideration.
St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC still uses the loft. It seems St. Peter’s has the choir somewhere near the sanctuary. But I feel that the people don’t sing as much because it looks like we are performing for them.
St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC still uses the loft. It seems St. Peter’s has the choir somewhere near the sanctuary. But I feel that the people don’t sing as much because it looks like we are performing for them.
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