Choir members gang up on ministry leader

[Ceil-1]

Our music ministry leader lost his job when one of the choirs threatened the pastor they would quit if he didn’t leave. From what I understand, things got quite dicey.

I won’t get into the accusations, but, it was basically a matter of their not liking his personality, choice of music, etc.

I am disturbed about this on many levels. First, how does a handful of people come off demanding anything and get away with it?

Second of all, I am told that the lack of love demonstrated by these people is staggering.

Third of all, what weak leadership, that the pastor would give in to these uncharitable malcontents.

This sort of attitude is rampant also in the SVDP society, the K of C, and many of the other ministries as well. The fists are so tight, you need a crowbar to get them open. I say this on behalf of the poor I try to serve.

Such hypocrisy, experienced in my youth, made me give up all churches as social clubs. Small wonder the church is faltering with this type of behavior.

It makes me not even want to go to Mass because of the ill-will it conjures up. Help.

 

[EasterJoy]

I can’t say much, as I’m in a position where this is all hearsay. To some extent, you may be, too. You may not be privy to real reasons which would make this behavior more understandable, even if we cannot imagine reasons which would make it excusable.

Try talking to your pastor. Ask what you can do in order to be part of the solution to this problem, rather than part of the problem itself.

I’m guessing that at least part of the answer is going to be prayer and a desire to have an unfailingly humble, positive attitude. There are few things more powerful than prayer and good example.

Another possibility is to frequent the Sacrament of Reconciliation, assuming you don’t already do so. There is nothing for increasing compassion and decreasing hypocrisy like a regular appointment with contrition. You may not be the worst hypocrite in your parish by a longshot, but there is exactly one person’s hypocrisy over which you have any direct influence.

If you find your charity is not great enough to withstand the situation, you might have to find a different parish, yourself. I hope not, but if you do, don’t punish yourself over it. You do what you have to do.

That’s my guess. I’d recommend a priest’s advice over mine. Good luck, and hang in there.

 

[Ceil-1]

I am not sure what you are trying to say. It sounds as if you are blaming me for the problem. Why would you imply that I am a hypocrite and uncharitable? That I need “reconciliation”? I feel righteously angry on behalf of that poor man who was basically railroaded out. Does anybody give a hoot?

 

[CarrieH]

I am disturbed about this on many levels. First, how does a handful of people come off demanding anything and get away with it?

Unless you are a member of that choir, you don’t know the whole story. As a semi-professional musician myself, let me tell you, there are some conductors and music leaders out there who are very difficult, temperamental, and demanding. Just because this person might have been up there in the choir loft looking all happy and holy doesn’t mean that is how he was behind the closed doors of the rehearsal room. In fact, FWIW, the worst tyrant of a conductor I ever played for was the nicest guy you’d ever meet once he stepped off the podium. Chances are, his dismissal did not occur over one isolated incident, but rather, that incident was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I have personally sat through rehearsals where conductors have singled out and humiliated individuals for mistakes right in front of the whole group, and I have seen batons thrown and other temper-tantrum behaviors, and I have been on the receiving end of sarcastic remarks from the podium. If that music director was guilty of any of the above, then he deserved to be dismissed. In most parish churches, the choir members are unpaid volunteers. They are already giving up one night a week of their free time in order to come to rehearsals, and they are usually required to arrive early for Mass as well. Would you make those sacrifices week after week, if the cost of participation was having to put up with the behaviors I described above? I certainly wouldn’t, even if it were a paid gig. If it was bad enough that the choir people were telling the priest, “either he goes or we go,” I’m betting there were ample reasons for their complaints. So don’t be too quick to judge. The "lack of love’ you describe may well have been started by the director himself.

 

[KAL]

When you ask for advice or try to communicate a story to so many armchair “counselors” in this forum, you come up with the answers you see on this site. They will always shoot the messenger and then tell you what a wonderful person you are, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Cat]

I agree that you should know the whole story before assessing it.

If you personally know the music minister and he was a really loving, wonderful person, then yes, it is a shame that he was treated so badly.

Do you personally know the people in the choir who ganged up on him? Are they typically loving, kind people who would give you the shirts off their backs? Is the pastor typically a loving, wonderful priest?

If so, then isn’t a little strange that they would suddenly turn ugly?

But if they are typically ill-mannered, unkind, snooty people, and the priest is not at all friendly or kind-hearted, then yes, they probably did gang up on the “victim,” and yes, it’s a shame.

The music minister at our parish was fired after it became public that he was living in a homosexual relationship and the two of them were seeking to adopt a child. He was a great guy and a great musician/director, and quite a few people were upset and actually left the church over it. But the Catholic Church cannot allow a worker in the church to live in sin and flaunt it publicly. And even though some people left, others actually came BACK to Catholicism when they saw that the church had some guts.

Please be encouraged a little though–if the man is truly a good music director, he will have no trouble finding another job in another church (although it probably won’t be Catholic). The music minister from our parish was hired within a few days by one of the United Methodist churches in our city, who were publicly gloating about their “inclusiveness” and “love.”

 

[Spiller]

Our music ministry leader lost his job when one of the choirs threatened the pastor they would quit if he didn’t leave. From what I understand, things got quite dicey.

I won’t get into the accusations, but, it was basically a matter of their not liking his personality, choice of music, etc.

I am disturbed about this on many levels. First, how does a handful of people come off demanding anything and get away with it?

Second of all, I am told that the lack of love demonstrated by these people is staggering.

Third of all, what weak leadership, that the pastor would give in to these uncharitable malcontents.

This sort of attitude is rampant also in the SVDP society, the K of C, and many of the other ministries as well. The fists are so tight, you need a crowbar to get them open. I say this on behalf of the poor I try to serve.

Such hypocrisy, experienced in my youth, made me give up all churches as social clubs. Small wonder the church is faltering with this type of behavior.

It makes me not even want to go to Mass because of the ill-will it conjures up. Help.

We are all humans and we all suffer from the stains of original sin. The games played at my parish are absolutely horrible – very unchristian at times.

That said while I don’t know the particulars, I could see how a music ministry leader could be doing a horrible job and only something like this would change things. Conversely I could also see where the threatened-quitters might have been the real problem, or even where both lend to the problem.

I feel your pain though. the games and turf-protecting that go on at my parish are appalling – but things have improved with our new pastor…

 

[pnewton]

First, the Church is not faltering. The extent that we have issues we deal with in the Catholic Church, the firing of choir directors do not even cause a blip on the radar.

I think the only way to avoid gossip in a situation like this is not to jump to conclusions. I do not think this thread constitutes gossip as no names are mentioned. But I do think the priest deserves the benefit of the doubt in absence of clear wrong-doing.

The firing of personnel is totally the decision of the priest. The reasons may not be subject to public scrutiny for many valid reasons. Even based on what you said, personality could be a valid issue if it prohibited him from doing his job well.

 

[EasterJoy]

I am not sure what you are trying to say. It sounds as if you are blaming me for the problem. Why would you imply that I am a hypocrite and uncharitable? That I need “reconciliation”? I feel righteously angry on behalf of that poor man who was basically railroaded out. Does anybody give a hoot?

I did not mean to give you the impression that you are to blame, and of course I care whether an injustice was done. But your question seemed to be this: “What can I, someone with no direct knowledge of what went on and no authority to change it, do here?”

The answer, I think–and I tried to admit I am no authority here–is to be more of what your parish needs. That is in your power to do. What I’m saying is that your parish might just need a saint, and who knows, you might be it.

If you have standing to be angry, you have standing to be a force for forgiveness, and perhaps even reconciliation. If you have eyes to see the faults of others, you have eyes to see your own faults. The difficulty in seeing your own, the difficulty in doing anything to change your own…this is a source of compassion and mercy. *It isn’t that you are better or worse than anyone else. That isn’t the point. * It is that God may see fit to give you standing to add his grace to the mix. Isn’t God’s grace the only thing that is going to make a difference here? If you offer yourself, God might use you in that way, even though God did not put you into a position to change the situation by more direct intervention. As we all know, God’s peace comes from interior conversion.

As I said, it is just a thought. I also tried to say that if you discern that the parish is too toxic for your spiritual health, I would not argue with that. You are in a position that, in prayer, that might become clear. I don’t know.

I still think you might do best to talk to your pastor. Be careful not to accuse him of anything, because you do not have all the facts. You might tell him, though, that you have been affected and that you would like to be of help, if that is possible.

 

[EasterJoy]

When you ask for advice or try to communicate a story to so many armchair “counselors” in this forum, you come up with the answers you see on this site. They will always shoot the messenger and then tell you what a wonderful person you are, blah, blah, blah.

Well, free advice *is *worth what you pay for it.
(Might you have any other solace or direction to offer, though? )

 

[Sarabande]

I agree that you should know the whole story before assessing it.

If you personally know the music minister and he was a really loving, wonderful person, then yes, it is a shame that he was treated so badly.

Do you personally know the people in the choir who ganged up on him? Are they typically loving, kind people who would give you the shirts off their backs? Is the pastor typically a loving, wonderful priest?

If so, then isn’t a little strange that they would suddenly turn ugly?

But if they are typically ill-mannered, unkind, snooty people, and the priest is not at all friendly or kind-hearted, then yes, they probably did gang up on the “victim,” and yes, it’s a shame.

I agree with this. Since I don’t know the whole story, I can’t say what is truly up. Having worked in churches of various denominations as a musician, I do know that it can sometimes be very vicious. It’s sad, but many of my colleagues who work as church musicians solely for their income get really beat up and some wish they can get out as their ideals and beliefs about a loving and open church or synogogue (no matter what denomination) become dashed and sullied. Most of us go in with optimism and spiritual ideals, but they are quickly challenged. But many do stay because there are those moments where they feel and are reminded that they are there to do God’s work and just have to ignore the horrid pettiness and unchristian acts.

I didn’t mean to make it sound so horrible, but it is sometimes unfortunately the case. It happens on both ends. Sometimes it is the musician with the bad attitude who no matter how brilliant he/she is no one can work with him/her or just lack of any talent and in that case that person does need to be fired and told gently that they perhaps should pursue other talents. Sometimes it is the priests or the congregation or other musicians who either have their own agenda, are jealous of the talents of the musician or wants that musician’s job.

And the church music world is very small - even smaller than the music world. Word travels fast and vicious rumors and gossip even faster.

So, for me I would find out the true details firsthand before making making either party the bad guy. (I’m not saying the OP was doing that. I just don’t have enough info and do not know the people involved to make the judgement. The OP may have firsthand knowledge.)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Keep in mind that your pastor is probably trying to defuse the situation, which may look like he’s being weak by not taking a stand. However, he’s the pastor for both sides and won’t take a position one way or another.

So should you. Don’t get into a conflict that has nothing to do with you and what you know little about.

Your job in such a situation, is to be a better Catholic and be charitable to all involved. As Saint Francis prayed, “make me an instrument of your peace.” This often involves silence, but most of all, compassion. Pray and ask God to open their hearts to each other.

Jim

 

[leonie]

I think the lay people involved in the music ministry should have some kind of ownership of the hiring process. The Pastor doesn’t have to kowtow to them, but he should listen to the (name removed by moderator)ut they provide.

 

[pnewton]

I think the lay people involved in the music ministry should have some kind of ownership of the hiring process. The Pastor doesn’t have to kowtow to them, but he should listen to the (name removed by moderator)ut they provide.

I somewhat agree. The principle of Church authority sets the priest as the authority in all things, period. However, as such, he ought to be wise enough to know when to listen. Like the situation given, even though we do not know the details, good leadership usually does not lead to mass rebellion (pun intentional).

 

[Ceil-1]

I do know what went on. That is why I’m upset. A friend of mine who is in the choir gave me the play by play details. He is originally from another country and recently from the “East Coast”, as people describe it here. That’s two strikes against him right there.

He insisted people show up for practices or they could not sing. He insisted on cantoring because the people were not coming prepared. He also had his own ideas on what to use for liturgical music. Perhaps diplomacy and “people skills” weren’t his forte. God forbid someone with a more traditional bent comes along and tries to weed out the happy-clappy stuff.

Nevertheless, there is no excuse for the nasty, personal attacks flung at him, according to my friend. He was a friend of the pastor’s and the pastor is so disgusted he made a comment at a meeting last night saying he had only one more year with this parish and he hopes to get a parish with deaf and dumb people.

And I don’t buy this “we shouldn’t gossip” stuff. That is what a forum is for. To vent and discuss these type of problems in an anonymous venue.

I have thought about this, and I have concluded that there is a reason Jesus gave us the parable of the weeds and the wheat. It’s just that it seems the pushy types get all the powerful positions in the churches, while the “good guys” end up being the underdogs. Just think, one of our new, young, great priests gets criticized for giving too many homilies about his “farm days”.

It must be truly difficult to be a priest.

 

[water]

It makes me not even want to go to Mass because of the ill-will it conjures up. Help.

Dear Ceil-1,

It looks like you might have bigger problem of your own than this problem. Go to mass despite of the problem. Don’t let your faith shaken because of other people’s problem.

I could understand that it upsets you, but that is the reason of you going to mass for. I would suggest that you pray hard for the priest to know what to do, and for the choir to listen to the priest.

God bless.

 

[CarrieH]

He insisted people show up for practices or they could not sing. He insisted on cantoring because the people were not coming prepared.

Those are perfectly acceptable rules, but not very popular ones. The best choirs I have sung with have had similar rules, so it’s not like that was something this guy came up with arbitrarily on his own. If the prior music directors let people get away with stuff like that, no wonder the choir people were up in arms., esp. if he enforced these rules without tact and diplomacy. This story sounds an awful lot like something one of my organist friends went through, although he quit of his own accord before they could fire him…and took a job in an Episcopal church where they like fine classical choral music, and the choir was willing to discipline themselves in order to be able to perform this type of music. I imagine your former music director was every bit as aggravated with the choir people as they were with him, and there were probably uncharitable behaviors on both sides of this issue. Let’s pray that he finds a job which will be a better “fit” for his standards and personality, and that the choir people will be kinder to the next person who takes on that position.

 

[Guitar]

Those are perfectly acceptable rules, but not very popular ones. The best choirs I have sung with have had similar rules, so it’s not like that was something this guy came up with arbitrarily on his own. If the prior music directors let people get away with stuff like that, no wonder the choir people were up in arms., esp. if he enforced these rules without tact and diplomacy. This story sounds an awful lot like something one of my organist friends went through, although he quit of his own accord before they could fire him…and took a job in an Episcopal church where they like fine classical choral music, and the choir was willing to discipline themselves in order to be able to perform this type of music. I imagine your former music director was every bit as aggravated with the choir people as they were with him, and there were probably uncharitable behaviors on both sides of this issue. Let’s pray that he finds a job which will be a better “fit” for his standards and personality, and that the choir people will be kinder to the next person who takes on that position.

Couldn’t agree more. It must be done charitably but a choir director is quite within his/her rights to have a no-rehearsal, no-gig rule and to enforce it for all cases except emergencies or illness. If such a rule isn’t enforced, there’s no point having it. If the former director did not establish this sort of culture, I can feel the pain on both sides of the problem.

For about three years I conducted a choir, for an annual ceremony, of people who liked to sing a bit and felt safety in numbers, and whose regular director’s attempts at discipline were routinely ignored. Three or four would commit to the ceremony and come to the practices, then get the jitters and think about pulling out. The others would do a grapevine thing by phone and see who planned to be at the ceremony anyway, and if all were convinced enough would show that they wouldn’t feel exposed, bingo, ten unrehearsed people without copies of the music would show up at 30 minutes to curtain. If you told them to go away, the few that had rehearsed would chicken out completely and you’d have no choir at all. Rehearsal meant learning the tunes, and bringing your own music didn’t matter because you could look on with the next person’s. Nor did it matter that you then weren’t looking at the conductor because no one would sing till the person next to them did anyway, even if they were looking. All lovely, lovely people who did their best for about thirty years, but they were not effective and there was no way they ever would be with this rehearsal “discipline”.

And on the other hand, I’ve been in an ad hoc choir where the director was pretty obnoxious, had unreasonable expectations and made it clear it was the choir’s fault those expectations were not met. I saw the commitment through but will never go near that person again. My volunteer time should be treated with the same respect as a paid worker’s time because I am freely giving it out of the little bit that’s left after I’ve met my daily obligations. For that reason, when volunteering, I won’t tolerate rudeness from anyone, no matter how brilliant a musician they are.

Whatever the story, it sounds a shame for all concerned.

 

[Newbie2]

I do know what went on. That is why I’m upset. A friend of mine who is in the choir gave me the play by play details. He is originally from another country and recently from the “East Coast”, as people describe it here. That’s two strikes against him right there.

He insisted people show up for practices or they could not sing. He insisted on cantoring because the people were not coming prepared. He also had his own ideas on what to use for liturgical music. Perhaps diplomacy and “people skills” weren’t his forte. God forbid someone with a more traditional bent comes along and tries to weed out the happy-clappy stuff.

Nevertheless, there is no excuse for the nasty, personal attacks flung at him, according to my friend. He was a friend of the pastor’s and the pastor is so disgusted he made a comment at a meeting last night saying he had only one more year with this parish and he hopes to get a parish with deaf and dumb people.

And I don’t buy this “we shouldn’t gossip” stuff. That is what a forum is for. To vent and discuss these type of problems in an anonymous venue.

I have thought about this, and I have concluded that there is a reason Jesus gave us the parable of the weeds and the wheat. It’s just that it seems the pushy types get all the powerful positions in the churches, while the “good guys” end up being the underdogs. Just think, one of our new, young, great priests gets criticized for giving too many homilies about his “farm days”.

It must be truly difficult to be a priest.

You do know what went on, “…according to (your friend)…” but that’s still not first-hand knowledge.

You’re right, this isn’t gossip as it’s anonymous forum…but be careful how you speak with people in your parish, 'cuz then it could be.

I feel your frustration, but don’t be too quick to generalize. Every parish has their share of “bad apples”, but they don’t always “win”. Hopefully, the situation in your parish will work itself out for the better…

 

[pnewton]

The problems of a volunteer choir are numerous. Mandatory rehersals are not always an option, unless one is willing to go solo every Mass. Some choirs are big and disciplined enough that they can be an option. Apparently this choir director misjudged what he could and could not do. Hindsight is twenty-twenty and no one should judge him for such a miscalculation. Yet we can still learn from it.

Any church leader must be in contact with the priest to a greater extent than those under him. If trouble starts to brew, he should be the one to go to the priest first, for both advice and support. Second, one has to live with the cards dealt. The volunteers you inherit are not something you can control. You must gain more respect for them than you exert control over them. Their are many techniques of dealing with hard to manage people. Since this does not come natural to many musicians, get advice or read up on the subject.