Choir not kneeling for consecration?

[datingtrappists]

First, I want to apologize for several things… this has been bothering me for a long time, and now it seems to have reached a head. For possibly sounding “holier than thou”… I really am trying very hard not to. Also, for this being long, as well… I just want to make sure that all of the information is there.

So, where to start… I guess I could say the idea of me not kneeling for the consecration at Mass will send me to tears… a few months ago, I was on crutches and was unable to for 6 weeks, and I was very upset each Mass when it came to the consecration.

My parish’s choir does not kneel during the consecration, and I admit, it has distracted me (at the very least) before. I’ve fought each time that happens to return my attention to the sacrifice of the altar, which is the most important reason why we all are there.

Recently, I was asked to sing with my parish’s choir pretty much out of the blue. This was very unexpected (even with 8 years of voice lessons, I try to not sing too loudly… there were a few prideful times in my past I would rather not repeat :blushing and because it was so unexpected, I said yes without thinking. I am also canting for the first time tomorrow morning. Because the cantor sings with the choir, I will be up with them in the Sanctuary ( ::shudder:: ). Since I have already agreed to do this, and it’s such short notice, I will do so.

My concern is twofold… short term and long term… For tomorrow, I am wondering if I should go ahead and kneel for the consecration, even though I’ll be the only one. I don’t want to bring any undue attention to myself, like this would certainly do, but like I mentioned earlier, the thought of not kneeling makes me physically ill. And for the future, I have already agreed to be the cantor occasionally, and to sing with the choir… And as Fr. reminds everyone freqently, “let your no’s be no, and your yes’s be yes”…

I appreciate any suggestions and advice anyone could give me.

~E

 

[Lainey63]

Yes!!! Kneel…just do it in humility & love. I would say if anyone asks you why…just say because you can. You know how you felt when you couldn’t kneel…To Thine Ownself Be True. Besides, we are required to kneel during the consecration maybe the others in the choir just don’t know. A few weeks ago I went to a different mass and there was one singer, she stood at the podium which is not on the altar but next to the altar, when it was time to kneel for the consecration she didn’t think twice about it. She knelt on the floor until it was time for her to sing. Another church I go to for daily mass has no kneelers but many of us do kneel & I went through all those thoughts that are going through your mind…but I finally got the courage to kneel by watching others. Don’t let your fears hold you back. God Bless

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

First, I want to apologize for several things… this has been bothering me for a long time, and now it seems to have reached a head. For possibly sounding “holier than thou”… I really am trying very hard not to. Also, for this being long, as well… I just want to make sure that all of the information is there.

So, where to start… I guess I could say the idea of me not kneeling for the consecration at Mass will send me to tears… a few months ago, I was on crutches and was unable to for 6 weeks, and I was very upset each Mass when it came to the consecration.

My parish’s choir does not kneel during the consecration, and I admit, it has distracted me (at the very least) before. I’ve fought each time that happens to return my attention to the sacrifice of the altar, which is the most important reason why we all are there.

Recently, I was asked to sing with my parish’s choir pretty much out of the blue. This was very unexpected (even with 8 years of voice lessons, I try to not sing too loudly… there were a few prideful times in my past I would rather not repeat :blushing and because it was so unexpected, I said yes without thinking. I am also canting for the first time tomorrow morning. Because the cantor sings with the choir, I will be up with them in the Sanctuary ( ::shudder:: ). Since I have already agreed to do this, and it’s such short notice, I will do so.

My concern is twofold… short term and long term… For tomorrow, I am wondering if I should go ahead and kneel for the consecration, even though I’ll be the only one. I don’t want to bring any undue attention to myself, like this would certainly do, but like I mentioned earlier, the thought of not kneeling makes me physically ill. And for the future, I have already agreed to be the cantor occasionally, and to sing with the choir… And as Fr. reminds everyone freqently, “let your no’s be no, and your yes’s be yes”…

I appreciate any suggestions and advice anyone could give me.

~E

You need to consider a couple of things. First why does the choir not kneel? Is it because they can’t, not enough room, nothing to hold on to when getting up or down? I have to use the back of a pew myself. I myself ask why do our altar servers not kneel they are in an open space with carpet? If there is no reason you cannot kneel, then you should.

 

[His_little1]

I agree. Kneeling during the consecration is a sign of respect and love that we show our Lord in the true presence. I wouldn’t give it a second thought. I play the piano at the front of our church and I kneel through it only to get up when I play (memorial acclamation). I think God would appreciate you showing the way to your Parish family in the choir.

Enjoy bringing praise and adoration to Him!

 

[tundramom]

Our choir director asks us not to kneel. There is so many times that I feel that we should kneel but the logistics of our church are such that there is simply not enough room between the choir chairs and the step below us to kneel without causing to bring a LOT of attention to ourselves. When I cantor alone, I have done so because I am not with a group of people. Usually there are just a few of us or just me.

We did have one lady who refused not to kneel and it caused a lot of hurtfulness with all the rest. It’s not that we do not want to kneel! Because of the placement of the choir, in the front of the congregation to the side of the altar, it is less distracting for those whose focus-rightfully so- is on the Altar.

If you can kneel without causing a commotion, do so. In our diocese there was an uproar for a while before the GIRM came out about whether the congregation knelt at all. It finally came down to kneeling (Praise God!) because we should all be in unity in our actions.

I would consider talking with the director beforehand and finding out why they don’t kneel.

in Christ
Steph

 

[amgp]

I’ve been a cantor for almost 35 years, and I’ve sung in many different churches, but no matter which church I sing in, I always kneel at the appropriate times during Mass (beginning after the singing of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, and then after receiving Holy Communion – and I receive on my knees). It doesn’t matter to me what anybody else in the church does, and I don’t really pay any attention to them (I close my eyes).

“at the name of Jesus every knee should bend” - Phil 2:10

I go to Mass to worship God in the way that our Church has instructed us (see the General Instructions of the Roman Missal, and Redemptionis Sacramentum). I don’t go to Mass to please others who choose not to follow the directives of the Catholic Church – and if they don’t know what is proper, then you’re example will show them the way.

If there really isn’t enough room for the members of your choir to kneel during Mass, then they should find another location to sing from where they’ll have enough room. Too many musicians these days think that they should be in front of everybody (performing?!!). How about letting God be the focus at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? The congregation doesn’t need to see the musicians in order to hear them, and they certainly don’t need a cantor waving their arm(s) up in the air in order to know when to sing. In spite of what some may believe, Vatican II never even hinted that choirs should be anywhere near the sanctuary when they sing.

 

[JMJ_coder]

You need to consider a couple of things. First why does the choir not kneel? Is it because they can’t, not enough room, nothing to hold on to when getting up or down? I have to use the back of a pew myself. I myself ask why do our altar servers not kneel they are in an open space with carpet? If there is no reason you cannot kneel, then you should.

Indeed. With my own choir, there are no kneelers. Those of us who can kneel on the hardwood. But, there are many members who physically cannot kneel without a kneeler (and a few who couldn’t even with one).

A reading of the GIRM, if you cannot kneel then you should stand:

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.…

…**In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. **The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise…

 

[lyre]

Our choir area has no kneelers and has tight spacing between chairs. Some of the choir members are elderly and/or physically challenged and are not able to kneel in these conditions (and possibly even in a regular pew), or with difficulty. Others have instruments to hold as obstacles to kneeling. The music director has arrived at this solution: There are established four basic postures for the choir. First is the standard “stand and sing” posture, second is the standard “sit and sing” posture. Third is a “relaxed” sitting posture (whenever the congregation is sitting and the choir is not singing). The fourth is called a “Kneeling while sitting” posture— sit on edge of chair, body slightly bended forward, head bowed, hands folded. It is a posture that shows a respectful reverant attitude, and while not technically “kneeling”, from the view of the congregation, it shows a “kneeling” attitude beyond the mere relaxed sitting back in the chair posture. While the more physically able choir members could kneel, having everyone in the choir assume this “kneeling while sitting” attitude actually causes less distraction and provides a common posture for all. All the choirs in our Parish have the same 4 positions. If there is a small group or a solo cantor, they may kneel. My church and diocese are fairly “conservative” and there have been no complaints or problems that I know of. I think this is a good solution to this problem.

 

[datingtrappists]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and encouragment to do what I know is right.

Currently there are anywhere from 4-8 people who sing in the choir. As far as I can tell, it doesn’t look like anyone would be physically impeded from kneeling (although I am 22 years old, and I already have terrible knees (why I was on crutches), so appearances can be deceiving).

However, one of the altar servers is perhaps in his late 50’s early 60’s, and he kneels on the open carpet, with nothing to help himself stand up (he does this for daily Mass… every single day). At Benediction and Exposition, Fr. kneels, again on the open carpet, and is able to stand back up again. He does Benediction and Exposition for most Solemnities at Vespers, so he has done this every day this past week, for the Octave. If they can do so, then I don’t see why the choir (who has the same amount of space) can do so, too.

I guess what concerns me the most is the… great affinity that is shown towards Marty Haugen, and… great dislike towards anything that’s over 50 years old by it seems most of the choir. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t dislike Marty Haugen, but the Church has such a rich history and treasury of music… well, I was confirmed last year (converted in heart and mind a few years ago… and it took awhile for my body to catch up), and much to my delight as a history, music, and theology buff, I have stumbled on this great treasure chest of all three. Fr. picks out the music during week day Mass, and most of the songs are from the treasure chest… However, I can tell that he does not pick out the Saturday and Sunday Mass hymns . He shares my same… befuddlement about the sentiment of most others’ taste in liturgical music.

I am not looking for a battle, and I really don’t like standing out… but I will do what I have to do (ie, kneeling) tomorrow… and decide later whether or not to just beg out of this whole choir thing. Athough, honestly, since I’ve thought that tomorrow might be my only time singing with the choir, I am much more at peace.

I ask for prayers!!! Thanks again for those who have posted!

~E

 

[AngelRose81]

Most definitely kneel. I was at a parish while travelling one time and there were NO kneelers! DH had dropped me off so I couldn’t leave and go to another parish so i dealt with it and I knelt when it was time. everyone else was standing and I got some very odd looks but i just ignored them the best I could. The mass at this parish was a very good Novus Ordo Mass, but they just didn’t have kneelers.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Anecdote:

My father told me of one occasion when he went to Mass years ago to a parish that had no kneelers. The Priest was adamant about people standing during the consecration. From what I understand, it was the Priest’s idea that we should stand as equals before God (or something similar).

Anyway, when the time for the Eucharistic Prayer came, my father knelt without kneelers on the floor. And the Priest stopped Mass and stated he would not continue until everyone stood. But, my father did not budge. This went on for quite some time with the Priest refusing to go on with Mass until everyone stood up and my father refusing to do so (he was the only hold out). Eventually the Priest did go on with Mass, but my father knelt the entire time.

 

[searcher_geoff]

Hi datingtrappists
Your reverence is to be admired and as long as what you do does not take from the moment of the Eucharist, kneel. We are all in different places in our journey so let your actions always reflect God’s love to those around you. May God continue to bless you Cheers Geoff

 

[amgp]

Anecdote:

My father told me of one occasion when he went to Mass years ago to a parish that had no kneelers. The Priest was adamant about people standing during the consecration. From what I understand, it was the Priest’s idea that we should stand as equals before God (or something similar).

Anyway, when the time for the Eucharistic Prayer came, my father knelt without kneelers on the floor. And the Priest stopped Mass and stated he would not continue until everyone stood. But, my father did not budge. This went on for quite some time with the Priest refusing to go on with Mass until everyone stood up and my father refusing to do so (he was the only hold out). Eventually the Priest did go on with Mass, but my father knelt the entire time.

God bless your father (and I’m sure that He has).

“If you confess me before man I will confess you before my father in heaven, but if you deny me before man I will deny you before my father in heaven” Matt. 10:32-33

 

[pnewton]

…In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.

This exception is here for a reason and it seems very applicable here. Th motive is avoiding a commotion. Sounds like a good reason. I even could see those in front kneeling and the others not kneeling. Unity with the Church is more important than unity as a choir. If I was cantor for a group that could not practically kneel and I could, I would still kneel.

All that can, should.

 

[amgp]

I guess what concerns me the most is the… great affinity that is shown towards Marty Haugen…
~E

It’s very sad, isn’t it? That our “Catholic” Church in the U.S. would actually allow us to sing “sacred” music for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that was written by a non-practicing Lutheran. I could go on and on about the blasphemous lyrics and the fluffy melodies of Haugen-Haas, but this topic has been covered many times before in this forum.

The best answer is that if this “music” disagrees with you, then find a good faithful parish that won’t allow it. You can tell a lot about a parish by the hymnals they use.

 

[kage_ar]

Speak to your Pastor about this.

 

[IrishDude45]

I nearly joined the choir when a friend asked me to but I said no. later when I was thinking why I said no I realized it was because I wanted to participate in the mass!
because the choir really doesn’t. They either can’t or don’t do anything that the rest of the parish does as far as kneeling, standing, sitting, or praying. They just stand the whole time and they have to keep track of what they are going to sing next so I don’t see how they could pray very well. I always thought that they could at least kneel for the consecration. None of them are over the age of 40. most are in their 20’s and 30’s. I’m sure at least most of them could with no trouble.

pax

 

[pnewton]

I nearly joined the choir when a friend asked me to but I said no. later when I was thinking why I said no I realized it was because I wanted to participate in the mass!
because the choir really doesn’t. They either can’t or don’t do anything that the rest of the parish does as far as kneeling, standing, sitting, or praying.

Yes, it is possible for many to fully participate in Mass. I have been leading the music for ten years and always fully participate in the Mass. The secret is being organized enough you do not have to think ahead. I know the first few times it was a little difficult, but once you get used to having things in order it is no problem.

 

[datingtrappists]

I already don’t go to my geographic parish… The time that the “choir director” sang a solo for the communion hymn that shared the melody with “I Can’t Help Falling in Love With You” was the final straw at that parish for me.

The pastor at this new parish has already implemented some more traditional and orthodox changes. I’ve not even been Catholic as long has Fr. has been assigned there, but from some things I’ve heard from those who have, the music selection was much, much more… exclusively Marty Haugen, and much less “Lift High the Cross” and “Holy, Holy, Holy” (which are two of the hymns today… I picked them out ). He would have already disallowed the hymnals, but I sense that he’s trying to make slow and gradual changes.

I sing in the schola for the Latin Mass that’s held there right after this Mass… and there are times that we’re standing when the rest of the congregation is sitting… but we’re in the back (so no one can see), and we ALWAYS kneel for the consecration. With my bad knees, it’s actually a blessing to not kneel as much as the congregation at EF. I do use 3 different books, but despite a couple of panicked moments of “What do we do?”, I am very much participating in the Mass. As someone else pointed out, being organized (and a little bit of prep before Mass) helps a great deal in being able to participate.

Thanks to everyone again for their posts. I will discuss this further with Fr… probably tomorrow, since he celebrates 3 Masses today.

~E

 

[datingtrappists]

So… It was just me “crowding the sanctuary” (I’ve heard Fr. refer to the choir as the folks who crowd the sanctuary) today… So no problem with kneeling and standing out. Also, after speaking to the choir director/accompanist, I am a bit more at ease as far as this issue goes. I am still unsure if I will sing with this choir, but if I do, I know I’m not the only one on this island.