Choirs consisting of lay persons

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Sbyvl said:
Au contrair! I am a fierce defender of the authority of the Church, which states that a heretic cannot be the pope, and that the Church cannot promulgate error or heresy. Vatican II promulgated ecumenism, modernism, and religious liberty. Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, Ratzinger, and Bergi were/are heretics, and not the Supreme Pontiff.
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Yes, yes, we know your position as a sedevacantist. In your view, I guess there will soon be no bishops validly appointed and no priests validly ordained, or has that situation already arrived? It puts you in the tiny minority here. Almost all of us spew the “modernism” you so detest.
 
Rau said:
Yes, yes, we know your position as a sedevacantist. In your view, I guess there will soon be no bishops validly appointed and no priests validly ordained, or has that situation already arrived? It puts you in the tiny minority here. Almost all of us spew the “modernism” you so detest.
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There are plenty of valid Bishops till out there. Bishops Dolan, Sanborn, fellay, Williamson, just to name the big name ones.
 
Pianos and guitars were not ordinarily used before Vatican II. The pop music that they are commonly used for was forbidden. However, it can’t be said that they were never used. Remember the story about the composition of Silent Night. It was first sung on Christmas Eve with a guitar because the church organ was broken and in need of repair. Full orchestras were used in Germany and Austria before VII to accompany the marvelous Masses that were sung. There was no liturgical police going around checking on what individual parishes were doing, It wasn’t necessary. Using pop music was unthinkable.
 
I think that we should define “choir” a little more closely — In the Tridentine usage, there are two different groups that bear this title.

First in the choir of clergy. They would sit in the sanctuary, and give the responses. For a while, they also would sing all the parts of the Mass, since they were able to read the propers, and likely had some knowledge of music. This is what is referred to when we talk about priests “sitting in choir,” as well as “choir dress,” and “choir stalls”. Here’s a picture of clergy in choir:
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Content/Site140/Blog/2627carosajpg_00000001833.jpg

There also developed a choir of clergy and/or laypeople who often sat in the back of the church, in a special “choir loft,” and sung the propers in an average parish. St. Pius X addresses this, although I know that his ruling on men-only choirs wasn’t often followed, even during his papacy.

As for sisters serving Mass: This occurred sometimes, but it was never really allowed. Eventually, the agreement was reached that a religious sister can kneel outside of the sanctuary, at the rail, and give the responses (which was one of the more important functions of the servers in the Tridentine Mass), but they could not minister in the sanctuary. As such, the priest would need to handle all the cruets, and the lavabo himself, unless another server was available.
 
Maxirad said:
Were choirs consisting of lay persons allowed prior to Vatican II? If they were allowed, were females forbidden from them?
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Actually contrary to many posters disbelief here, yes women were forbidden from singing in choir. And the ideal, even now, is to have a choir composed of clerics. Allowances have always been made to allow lay substitutes, but the ideal will always be a choir composed of clerics.
 
Psalitte said:
Actually contrary to many posters disbelief here, yes women were forbidden from singing in choir. And the ideal, even now, is to have a choir composed of clerics. Allowances have always been made to allow lay substitutes, but the ideal will always be a choir composed of clerics.
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Why is that the ideal? Where have you read this?
 
Psalitte said:
Actually contrary to many posters disbelief here, yes women were forbidden from singing in choir. And the ideal, even now, is to have a choir composed of clerics. Allowances have always been made to allow lay substitutes, but the ideal will always be a choir composed of clerics.
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In a world where a more realistic ideal might be to have at least two priests per parish, it’s hard to imagine restricting choirs to only deacons and priests.
 
Tarpeian_Rock said:
In a world where a more realistic ideal might be to have at least two priests per parish, it’s hard to imagine restricting choirs to only deacons and priests.
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That’s right. And while it might be a nice ideal to define the choir that ‘leads’ the congregation to be comprised of clergy only, that ceased to be possible many years ago. What is conveniently forgotten by some is that the Church is entirely free to evolve its customs and practices. There are not matters of faith and morals.
 
Rau said:
That’s right. And while it might be a nice ideal to define the choir that ‘leads’ the congregation to be comprised of clergy only, that ceased to be possible many years ago. What is conveniently forgotten by some is that the Church is entirely free to evolve its customs and practices. There are not matters of faith and morals.
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Indeed. The only choirs I know made up of entirely of ordained and religious, are in monasteries! Perhaps there are some in Rome, but in my diocese, you’d probably have to round up at least a quarter of the priests of the diocese to make up a decent-sized choir. In my diocese there are exactly 116 diocesan priests serving 363k Catholics; there are also 99 religious priests, some of which do not leave their communities (Dominicans, Cistercians, Jesuits, Trinitarians).

Heck even rounding up a small schola of say 7 or 8 priests would empty out most of the neighbouring parishes.

Fortunately as you say the Church evolves. I sing in a small men’s choir that specializes in Gregorian chant, in the neighbouring archdiocese (I live very close to the border between dioceses). Without people like us the Church in most places would be bereft of sacred music.
 
Yes, the choirs I ever saw before Vatican 2 were all lay people. I remember being in 7th grade and since the nun for our class was the organist, our class was expected to be the choir for a certain Sunday Mass time. So, anyone could be in the choir - men, women, children.
 
The idea of not being allowed to sing to the Lord breaks my heart! Ever since I was a child, I have sung in choirs (both pre & post Vatican II).

Being a girl, I knew I could never be a priest or an altar boy and I was cool with that. But if the only choice left to be a part of the Liturgy was to scrub the sanctuary floor every Saturday morning with the Altar Society, I would not be cool with that.

Because “to sing is to pray twice,” I was the first to sign up for a girls’ choir as a 6th grader. I’ve never been out of the choir for more than a couple of years since. Singing in the Choir has brought me closer to God than anything else I’ve done in my life.
 
Saralinda said:
The idea of not being allowed to sing to the Lord breaks my heart! Ever since I was a child, I have sung in choirs (both pre & post Vatican II).

Being a girl, I knew I could never be a priest or an altar boy and I was cool with that. But if the only choice left to be a part of the Liturgy was to scrub the sanctuary floor every Saturday morning with the Altar Society, I would not be cool with that.

Because “to sing is to pray twice,” I was the first to sign up for a girls’ choir as a 6th grader. I’ve never been out of the choir for more than a couple of years since. Singing in the Choir has brought me closer to God than anything else I’ve done in my life.
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Completely agree with you! I’ve been singing Gregorian chant in a small men’s schola for 12 years. We sing at Mass as well as for funerals, and the odd concert or at parish anniversary celebrations. It’s been one of my deepest spiritual experiences.

We’re not in 1900 any more when there was like what 8 priests or so living in a rectory. Now we can barely find one priest to serve 4 parishes. That makes for a pretty small choir if we limit it to clergy…
 
Another piece of history… Choirs used to be in the “choir-style” seating (i.e. facing the center aisle, common in religious houses) and were a de facto “buffer” between the laity and the sanctuary. Choirs were all male a few hundred years ago. The organ had already been moved up and away from the people - it was discovered that if the pipes were higher the sound carried better. When the decision was made to stop using castrati, it was realized that they would have to use women to be able to have the 4+ part harmonies.

To oversimplify the story, the question was raised where they could have women in the choir but not have the (profane) beings so close to the sanctuary, and it was decided to expand the organ loft to put the choir up there. I forget when this happened, but it was probably in the later Middle Ages.

This is a vast simplification of the story I read some time ago in a book on church history. But I do remember it as it was contrary to anything I had heard of to that time. Growing up, women were always part of choirs I sang in.
 
Right or wrong, its has been my understanding that a Men’s Scola would sing the Propers of the Mass; while the choir (men and women) could sing the ordinary and any Sacred Polyphony.

Obviously this would entirely change within the men’s and women’s Religious Orders.

Correct me if you have other information. 🙂
 
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