Choosing between Orthodoxy and Catholicism -- how and why did you do it?

[dcointin]

Why would an issue such as “non traditional church architecture, etc” affect your decision to be Catholic? That is petty.

By non traditional church architecture I’m referring to modern churches that are not based on established Christian principles. Architecture, like all aspects of church art, proclaims a theology, and therefore should be Christian in its design. Examples of this are stadium seating which is derrived from entertainment venues, stained glass that is so abstract or plain that it fails the most basic principles of iconography, bizarre crucifixes that are fail to portray Our Lord’s passion with reverence, etc. I think the prevalence of these kinds of churches is evidence of a different spirit in modern Catholicism than is present in Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy, every building, icon, even the smallest details must conform to tradition and theological principles. This is not to say that there is only one established form of traditional art and architecture, only that each is thoroughly Christian in its expression. This is not a peculiarly Orthodox critique, but one that I’ve found with many, many Catholics as well.

EDIT: slight change in the last sentence

 

[Madaglan]

By non traditional church architecture I’m referring to modern churches that are not based on established Christian principles. Architecture, like all aspects of church art, proclaims a theology, and therefore should be Christian in its design. Examples of this are stadium seating which is derrived from entertainment venues, stained glass that is so abstract or plain that it fails the most basic principles of iconography, bizarre crucifixes that are fail to portray Our Lord’s passion with reverence, etc. I think the prevalence of these kinds of churches is evidence of a different spirit in modern Catholicism than is present in Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy, every building, icon, even the smallest details must conform to tradition and theological principles. This is not to say that there is only one established form of traditional art and architecture, only that each is thoroughly Christian in its expression. I am very comfortable in traditional Catholic churches, so please don’t interpret this as anti-westernism.

This exactly is my sentiment as well.

 

[Nine_Two]

GENERAL WARNING
For all threads dealing with the Orthodox Church.
Your threads will be watched closely and it is HIGHLY suggested we use charity and respect in posting.

Any possibility of a general pruning of this thread to bring it back to the topic of the OP? I don’t recall a request for a debate on which is better, just a request for people’s personal experiences.

 

[jwinch2]

Theological and historical matters aside, one big factor for me was the state of the modern Catholic Church. Since Vatican 2, there’s been a widespread corruption of the liturgy, world wide sex abuse scandal…

Please forgive me, but could you please clarify the above statement. The way that it currently reads, it sounds as if you are suggesting a link between Vatican II and sex abuse. If I am misinterpreting that, I apologize. However, in case I am not, I don’t believe that you can tie the sex abuse scandal, as horrible as it is, to Vatican II. After all, the Orthodox Church has had its own problems of sex abuse by clergy, sans council as have several other Christian groups.

 

[dcointin]

Please forgive me, but could you please clarify the above statement. The way that it currently reads, it sounds as if you are suggesting a link between Vatican II and sex abuse. If I am misinterpreting that, I apologize. However, in case I am not, I don’t believe that you can tie the sex abuse scandal, as horrible as it is, to Vatican II. After all, the Orthodox Church has had its own problems of sex abuse by clergy, sans council as have several other Christian groups.

I did not intend a connection between Vatican II and the sex abuse scandal, no. I was just referring to a number of things that happened in the modern church with Vatican II as my starting point. I apologize if that wasn’t clear. Again my biggest problem isn’t that the abuse occurred, but how it was handled by the church authorities, i.e. to not report it, reassign the priests, etc. I have trouble believing I could trust a church that would do that for so long and so widespread.

 

[jwinch2]

I did not intend a connection between Vatican II and the sex abuse scandal, no. I was just referring to a number of things that happened in the modern church with Vatican II as my starting point. I apologize if that wasn’t clear.

No problem at all. I appreciate the clarification.

Peace,

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Don,

I did not intend a connection between Vatican II and the sex abuse scandal, no. I was just referring to a number of things that happened in the modern church with Vatican II as my starting point. I apologize if that wasn’t clear. Again my biggest problem isn’t that the abuse occurred, but how it was handled by the church authorities, i.e. to not report it, reassign the priests, etc. I have trouble believing I could trust a church that would do that for so long and so widespread.

TBH, I’m rather surprised to read this from you. The sins of individuals should and can never be attributed to any Church as a whole. The sin of bearing false witness against the Catholic Church is much more widespread in the Orthodox Churches. Should I consider the Orthodoxy itself to be fundamentally flawed and never to be trusted, or are these the sins of INDIVIDUALS, regardless of how widespread they are? I could never trust ANY information about the Catholic Church that comes from an Orthodox not in communion with Rome. It does not mean one cannot love the Orthodox Church herself for the Truth she does represent.

Blessings,
Marduk

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

By non traditional church architecture I’m referring to modern churches that are not based on established Christian principles. Architecture, like all aspects of church art, proclaims a theology, and therefore should be Christian in its design. Examples of this are stadium seating which is derrived from entertainment venues, stained glass that is so abstract or plain that it fails the most basic principles of iconography, bizarre crucifixes that are fail to portray Our Lord’s passion with reverence, etc. I think the prevalence of these kinds of churches is evidence of a different spirit in modern Catholicism than is present in Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy, every building, icon, even the smallest details must conform to tradition and theological principles. This is not to say that there is only one established form of traditional art and architecture, only that each is thoroughly Christian in its expression. This is not a peculiarly Orthodox critique, but one that I’ve found with many, many Catholics as well.

I believe Catholicism is better at pointing out OBJECTIVE Truth than modern Orthodoxy. I think part of this is because Catholicism has such a rich history of appreciating the rational mind, which the early Fathers unanimously understood to be the main distinguishing factor between humanity and the animals. Using the terminology of your statement above, you are probably correct that modern Orthodoxy is better at preserving the Traditional FORMS of Orthodoxy (architercture, iconography, crucifixes, theology etc.), but Catholicism is much better at focusing on the ESSENCE of Orthodoxy - the things that go beyond the architecture, the iconography, crucifixes, the theological terminology, etc. Oriental Orthodoxy comes a very, very close second.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[GaryTaylor]

Have fun at mass!

Why you attend Mass isn’t why I attend apparently.

Fun at mass? I don’t attend Mass to seek fun, I attend Mass to seek communion with Jesus Christ my beloved Lord. I live by the moment by His Mercy. And correctly understand that, I could never forget it.

Grace and Peace

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

I’m curious, for those of you who converted to Orthodoxy or Catholicism (from whatever) – if you knew about both, what led to your final choice over the other?

This is the question in the OP.
Please stick to the topic.

 

[GaryTaylor]

For me, the decision was to remain Catholic or become Orthodox…

And we see as you type what your choice was made on.

The RCC has done well in sending missionaries around the world (I think of the Jesuits). .

Uh your starting to show you didn’t research as much as you claim.

Many of the Protestant churches also have done well in setting up missions. .

Right, how is the EO doing in the Ukraine? Their country their home, what are they doing for the poor, sick and needy their?

Ultimately though, I could not square Catholic (or Protestant) beliefs with the life of the Church of the first millenium…

Whys that? How do suppose the Apostles and the Ordained who followed and performed Mass immediately after and during that 300-year window, before Constantines converstion in Rome lived? Thats the period I focus on. Thats the first millenium no???

So again you have isolated a period in “history” and somehow deemed it more Holy than all other periods.

I also was not convinced that Vatican II, the New Mass, the New Springtime, etc. were of God.

.
So basically you stating God isn’t consecrated in the Eucharist at the V-II Mass? Such Christian Charity and Love just ooozing from you. Makes me feel all warm and tingly.

Can you prove this? I doubt that very much, in fact the exact same statement could fly off the top of my head about your church, and in fact I would have more actual proof to back it up by the ECFs.

Before I became Orthodox, I felt the new Catholicism (Catholicism post-Vatican II) was quite chintzy compared with what was Catholicism only 40 years before: the majestic Tridentine Mass, Gregorian Chant, traditional spirituality and liturgy…

Ah but once again you singled out a snap shot in time and deemed it more Holy than others. I do not see Christ and the Eucharist in any of that thinking.

The new Catholicism is “apostolic sussession” which could be verified in time.

The liturgy is the same in “all” the apostolic churchs. Those Jesuits you speak about above? Perhaps you should ask one.

I could not fathom how what long was the standard for Catholicism suddenly became considered backward, formalistic and outdated, and was even prohibited by the bishops of the Catholic Church. .

You assume once again the world will not continue to change and should be isolated to a “snap-shot” in time. Whats prohibited by the Bishops?

I did not know if the Catholic Church were the Church…

Apparently you still don’t.

the Church which continues to proclaim and pass down the Faith of Peter and the Apostles.

Right, thats in Rome Historically and Biblically, and proclaimed by all the ecumenical councils. IN fact Constantinople wasn’t even a thought until after the converstion of Rome and Constantines period. Do you see the difference in the two churchs in how we view “Contstantine”?

I saw the Latin Church as either heterodox or deeply flawed in beliefs, I could not do this. .

Exactly why I could never attend the EO. ECFs seen any church not in Communion with Rome or in schism. As an organism, outside the Mystical Body of Christ. A true church, but not complete with the body and severed from it.

Flawed in belief? Perhaps you should take a serious look at your own theology.

However I suppose when we chase buildings, murals, icons, a snap-shot in time, and unfounded assumptions based on no fact, then I could see why you arrived at your conclusions.

This sounds more like idol worship than anything else

God Bless your path to the Cross. I see yours hasn’t been the same as mine. I wouldn’t be so quick to rush to judge. With a simple twist of fate, you could be that person begging God with your last dying breath for life. I assure you those buildings, icons, mural etc, will be the farthest thing from your mind. Quickly you will understand what is important.

And I attend Mass to Thank God for never abandoning me in those moments. Even when I don’t “feel” like it. I often think, what if God didn’t “feel” like showing up during those moments of trial by fire. I don’t equate fun with Mass, buildings, icons, murals etc. I chase sanctifying Grace though the membranes of my mind and soul, there I find peace with the Lord. And I find Mass and church activity wonderful. But its those moments, when there is no church, because I’m not in it, their is no mural, icon, pretty building that I seriously focus on. Thats where I truly came to understand God, and was seriously touched by God. There were no material Cross’s, nothing, but me and God who lives within me. Their I found the living God and His Mercy. And it became abundantly apparent to me I was living completely by His will at that moment.

Whats became lost in all this thread and conversation is the Spiritual aspect of God. Religion has a way of doing that. In fact Christ specifically states this in the Bible. Religion often blinds the Spiritual eye. I don’t chase vanity, I chase the Lords saving Grace.

How that connects to religion through the EO or the CC I do not know. I only know what our Lord has done in my most difficult moments.

The rest to me is good, good, talk, pride, vanity, no humility. Nothing of virture or worth chasing. If fact its everything I choose to loose about myself.

In fact this is an aspect about the Protestants I have come to admire through time. And why many of us remain close friends after all these years. This spiritual aspect they do have in perspective.

Grace and Peace

 

[Cavaradossi]

Gary, that was very unkind of you. To savage somebody’s sincere reasons for converting and say that he/she picked Orthodoxy out of a desire to worship a time idol is rather unchristian; we’re not dealing with an abstract debate here, we’re dealing with the experiences of a real person. Last I checked God alone possess the ability to see into people’s heats and judge them accordingly, and quite honestly, I don’t think you’d enjoy being told that your faith in Catholicism is based on some idolatrous belief in Peter or in such and such other thing which convinces you of Catholicism’s truth.

As for the question of what drew me to Orthodoxy over Catholicism: I found Orthodoxy’s argument that we must look toward God noetically rather than emphasizing reason was a big draw. I honestly will never be able to believe that one can arrive to the conclusion that God exists from reason alone.

 

[dcointin]

Why you attend Mass isn’t why I attend apparently.

Fun at mass? I don’t attend Mass to seek fun, I attend Mass to seek communion with Jesus Christ my beloved Lord. I live by the moment by His Mercy. And correctly understand that, I could never forget it.

Grace and Peace

It was just a way of saying I’m not debating this with you here. If you’d like to, go to the Liturgy and Sacraments forum or Traditional Catholicism where you can debate it with other Catholics. I’ve said all I’m going to say on this.

 

[dcointin]

And we see as you type what your choice was made on.

Uh your starting to show you didn’t research as much as you claim.

Right, how is the EO doing in the Ukraine? Their country their home, what are they doing for the poor, sick and needy their?

Whys that? How do suppose the Apostles and the Ordained who followed and performed Mass immediately after and during that 300-year window, before Constantines converstion in Rome lived? Thats the period I focus on. Thats the first millenium no???

So again you have isolated a period in “history” and somehow deemed it more Holy than all other periods.

.
So basically you stating God isn’t consecrated in the Eucharist at the V-II Mass? Such Christian Charity and Love just ooozing from you. Makes me feel all warm and tingly.

Can you prove this? I doubt that very much, in fact the exact same statement could fly off the top of my head about your church, and in fact I would have more actual proof to back it up by the ECFs.

Ah but once again you singled out a snap shot in time and deemed it more Holy than others. I do not see Christ and the Eucharist in any of that thinking.

The new Catholicism is “apostolic sussession” which could be verified in time.

The liturgy is the same in “all” the apostolic churchs. Those Jesuits you speak about above? Perhaps you should ask one.

You assume once again the world will not continue to change and should be isolated to a “snap-shot” in time. Whats prohibited by the Bishops?

Apparently you still don’t.

Right, thats in Rome Historically and Biblically, and proclaimed by all the ecumenical councils. IN fact Constantinople wasn’t even a thought until after the converstion of Rome and Constantines period. Do you see the difference in the two churchs in how we view “Contstantine”?

Exactly why I could never attend the EO. ECFs seen any church not in Communion with Rome or in schism. As an organism, outside the Mystical Body of Christ. A true church, but not complete with the body and severed from it.

Flawed in belief? Perhaps you should take a serious look at your own theology.

However I suppose when we chase buildings, murals, icons, a snap-shot in time, and unfounded assumptions based on no fact, then I could see why you arrived at your conclusions.

This sounds more like idol worship than anything else

God Bless your path to the Cross. I see yours hasn’t been the same as mine. I wouldn’t be so quick to rush to judge. With a simple twist of fate, you could be that person begging God with your last dying breath for life. I assure you those buildings, icons, mural etc, will be the farthest thing from your mind. Quickly you will understand what is important.

And I attend Mass to Thank God for never abandoning me in those moments. Even when I don’t “feel” like it. I often think, what if God didn’t “feel” like showing up during those moments of trial by fire. I don’t equate fun with Mass, buildings, icons, murals etc. I chase sanctifying Grace though the membranes of my mind and soul, there I find peace with the Lord. And I find Mass and church activity wonderful. But its those moments, when there is no church, because I’m not in it, their is no mural, icon, pretty building that I seriously focus on. Thats where I truly came to understand God, and was seriously touched by God. There were no material Cross’s, nothing, but me and God who lives within me. Their I found the living God and His Mercy. And it became abundantly apparent to me I was living completely by His will at that moment.

Whats became lost in all this thread and conversation is the Spiritual aspect of God. Religion has a way of doing that. In fact Christ specifically states this in the Bible. Religion often blinds the Spiritual eye. I don’t chase vanity, I chase the Lords saving Grace.

How that connects to religion through the EO or the CC I do not know. I only know what our Lord has done in my most difficult moments.

The rest to me is good, good, talk, pride, vanity, no humility. Nothing of virture or worth chasing. If fact its everything I choose to loose about myself.

In fact this is an aspect about the Protestants I have come to admire through time. And why many of us remain close friends after all these years. This spiritual aspect they do have in perspective.

Grace and Peace

This was one of the most uncharitable and hostile posts I’ve read here. You don’t need to feel threatened by people’s personal decisions to join one church.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It was just a way of saying I’m not debating this with you here.

And wish you well on your journey with Christ also.

Peace.

 

[dcointin]

Dear brother Don,

TBH, I’m rather surprised to read this from you. The sins of individuals should and can never be attributed to any Church as a whole. The sin of bearing false witness against the Catholic Church is much more widespread in the Orthodox Churches. Should I consider the Orthodoxy itself to be fundamentally flawed and never to be trusted, or are these the sins of INDIVIDUALS, regardless of how widespread they are? I could never trust ANY information about the Catholic Church that comes from an Orthodox not in communion with Rome. It does not mean one cannot love the Orthodox Church herself for the Truth she does represent.

Blessings,
Marduk

I’m not saying that this scandal invalidates the Catholic Church’s dogma or claim to being the Church. At some point however when this became so widespread I had to question whether or not I can trust the institution to protect my future children. I would be lying if I said this wasn’t an issue, and I know it is for millions of lapsed or former Catholics as well. I’m also certainly willing to look for signs of repentance and examples of crimes being handled appropriately in the future. This is also just one minor factor that played into my decision, not the primary reason I became Orthodox.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Gary, that was very unkind of you

I found the statements in that post “uncharitable” amazing how you overlook that part, and want to point fingers at me. How charitable of you. :shrug:You actually believe this statement is “charitable”…

“not convinced that Vatican II, the New Mass, the New Springtime, etc. were of God”

Amazing how you pick and chose what you deem charitable. So its all well and fine to suggest God doesn’t exist in V-II, thats charitable?

What exactly are you saying?

 

[GaryTaylor]

uncharitable posts

Lets put it this way. No-one wants hear about what you don’t like about the CC. Just like you don’t want to hear about what we don’t like about your church. Could you see that Truth now.

And I don’t feel threatened by anything. And perhaps you also find this comment charitable?

“not convinced that Vatican II, the New Mass, the New Springtime, etc. were of God”

My how we pick and chose whats charitable. When did the EO become the judge of whats charitable here?

Perhaps if everyone proceeded in “charity” than one wouldn’t be confronted on their uncharitable posts.

Thats the continued issue arrising here. Fair enough:shrug: So lets get back what one likes about the CC or EO, not dislikes about the other church. Right?

Peace

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother in Christ Cavaradossi,

As for the question of what drew me to Orthodoxy over Catholicism: I found Orthodoxy’s argument that we must look toward God noetically rather than emphasizing reason was a big draw. I honestly will never be able to believe that one can arrive to the conclusion that God exists from reason alone.

I think you misunderstand what the Catholic Church (particularly the Latin portion) means when she says that one can conclude that “God exists from reason alone.”

Orthodoxy understands the noetic experience to INCLUDE not only knowledge ABOUT God, but also BELIEF IN God.

The Catholic Church (particularly the Latin), however, merely distinguishes epistemologically between knowing ABOUT God (through reason) from BELIEF IN God (through Faith).

Again, while Orthodoxy includes within the noetic experience not only reason AND the mysterious longing for the divine, Catholicism (particularly the Latin part) simply distinguishes between the two (reason and prevenient Grace are the names of the two distinguished elements). But does this mean that Catholicism (particularly the Latins) fails to include both elements in its teaching on man’s relationship with God? Of course not.

It would be a gross and uncharitable misunderstanding to propose that the Catholic Church teaches that one can come to God through reason alone.

Reason, prevenient Grace, and Faith. All these elements form part of Orthodoxy’s understanding of the nous. Catholicism (particularly the Latins) simply distinguishes these elements. But as far as our relationship with God, there is effectively no difference between what is taught by both Churches.

This is just one example of what I stated earlier about how Catholicism focuses on the ESSENCE of Orthodoxy much better than the modern Orthodox Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

I’m not saying that this scandal invalidates the Catholic Church’s dogma or claim to being the Church. At some point however when this became so widespread I had to question whether or not I can trust the institution to protect my future children. I would be lying if I said this wasn’t an issue, and I know it is for millions of lapsed or former Catholics as well. I’m also certainly willing to look for signs of repentance and examples of crimes being handled appropriately in the future. This is also just one minor factor that played into my decision, not the primary reason I became Orthodox.

Thanks for the explanation, brother Don. It helped.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk