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HagiaSophia
Guest
If this would match their stellar performance as a national council, then I say fervently, God spare us.
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Hesychios
Guest
I can understand your feelings of trepidation, just look at them!
But really now, they have not been responsible for their own membership up until this time. They are products of “the system” which involves all of those connections to be made in the seminary system, and who-knows-who in Rome, working the multi-national bureacracy there.
Then some individuals are put on the fast track, while most others are sent to Ars and will never get a notice.
I remember observing all those years of JP II’s pontificate, knowing he was trying to influence the direction of the church by appointing conservative new bishops.
We have the results of that to review now, most of the worlds active bishops have been appointed by Pope John Paul II. We can give the credit for the kind of national bishops conference we get right to him. Whether we like the results or not the blame or credit goes to Pope John Paul II.
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Donna_P
Guest
While it may seem like a good idea of local clergy and lay people to have a say - my concern is the nomination of pro-gay marriage bishops. We already have too many liberal priests and nuns and some bishops.
Let Pope Benedict make the decision!
Let Pope Benedict make the decision!
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Hesychios
Guest
Donna P:
That’s why I think the bishops of the Province should pick the new bishops, and they could be confirmed by the Metropolitan.
Perhaps a “Canon Chapter” could be used in some way, composed of any suffragens and Monsignors of the diocese in question. These along with the bishops of the Province should be able to make a good decision. I see no reason to involve Rome in the process at all.
Isn’t this something like the process the monastic houses and religious orders use to pick their leadership?
I agree that there doesn’t seem to be a reason for laypersons to be involved. I can also agree that the rank and file priests need not be included in the decision.
That’s why I think the bishops of the Province should pick the new bishops, and they could be confirmed by the Metropolitan.
Perhaps a “Canon Chapter” could be used in some way, composed of any suffragens and Monsignors of the diocese in question. These along with the bishops of the Province should be able to make a good decision. I see no reason to involve Rome in the process at all.
Isn’t this something like the process the monastic houses and religious orders use to pick their leadership?
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TJD
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Yea sure John Paul the Great appointed most of the bishops in our Church. Had he died earlier he would have appointed fewer. I like to think that the Holy Spirit deserves the credit for the current magesterium. You can put it at the Pope’s feet, but it is the same to me.
The Pope is the best person to lead the selection of bishops. He is the glue that holds the Church together. Without the authority to appoint Bishops the Pope will lose the unifying force that he now possesses and the Catholic Church will split into factions. I really don’t care how the process works as long as Bishops flow through Rome.
I will not follow the advice of v.o.t.f. to weaken the pontificate. I want a Church that is united. I want a strong Pope who teaches the Truth and wants nothing but to save human souls. I want a humble man who’s heart is open to Grace. I want a courageous man who is not worried about how he will be perceived by the world. I want a Bishop who leads his priests to teach the Word and deliver sacramental Graces to humanity. I want every Bishop to be qualified to be Pope, but none of them to want to. I want Priests and Deacons to understand their flock and serve the faithful to the best of their ability without worldly concerns. I expect them to be obedient to their Bishop. I want a catholic laity who supports their Priests and Deacons. Unfortunately the Church is comprised of humans. I realize my wishes are beyond reach. Regardless we need to try.
I hope to get to heaven. I hope to see you there. For me the Catholic Church alone shines on the narrow path.
…I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.
Christ’s Peace,
TJD
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Hesychios
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What is a v.o.t.f.?
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JKirkLVNV
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Voice of the Faithful
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HagiaSophia
Guest
I can’t agree with that all for a variety of reasons. The five names the pope gets to see together with the accompanying comments arrives on his desk in the order of “preference”. Bad information in, bad choice out. These ternas are filled out by the bishops (the very one who belong to that national council you are touting) and often reflect a mirror image rather than the “best man or the job”. It’s like anything else, when we have good bishops, we’ll see good candidates submitted, when we have , well what we have, you’ll see nothing superior to the person recommending them. Oft times when it gets to Rome, some of the “preferences” can be adjusted.
I belong to the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it group” – the system we have works. For awhile during the Catholic “silly season” we had a bit of a bump. We appear to be doing better now and I think the system will eventually go back to better than what we have seen.
Additionally as these bishops visit Rome, work on their various committees, correspondence and make contact with one another, many of the seasoned curial officials get a good idea of who is worth what pretty much which helps when that kind of “circulates around” a bit.
My vote is keep national councils as far out of it as you can. It gives far more freedom to individual bishops to make out their own ternas privately, not subject to pressure by their “peers” and it’s the way we’ve been doing it for quite some time now. I like it. I hope it stays.
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Mike_Dye
Guest
No let’s not let the pope choose I think we should do like the other demonitations have done and elect a openly gay bishop that has left his wife and children to live with his male lover. Dosn’t it just make sence?
Mike
Mike
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Hesychios
Guest
Mike Dye:
If you want a gay bishop I think thats weird.
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yochumjy
Guest
I think (hope) he was being sarcastic…
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Hagia!
I am sorry to have to say (considering the low esteem many bishops are already held in) that it’s already broke! Any number of threads decry the poor quality of bishops produced by this very system already.
It’s pretty sad that the Curia in Rome let things get so bad.
This is what I am referring to.
Curial officials are not the Pope, and we can point right to these Vatican insiders as the problem. It’s probably worse than Washington insiders in American politics. These people are delegated to make decisions Peter was supposedly expected to make. They represent a separate parallel hierachy.
The system is warped and distorted. The church is too highly centralized and doesn’t reflect apostolic practice. If we are praying for unity we had better pray for a way to clean up the Vatican bureaucracy as well or any approach to East-West unity will likely fail.
Like I said, no offence intended to anyone here, but the national conferences of bishops are currently not held in high regard generally as far as I can tell from my casual observation of the threads here on this board. Perhaps the problem is in how the members find their way in. This remote control from Rome is not ideal and not apostolic. Recent writings of (then) Cardinal Ratzinger seem to indicate his own interest in decentralizing the church, which makes me more comfortable in taking this position.
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TJD
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Who says our Bishops stinks? I like mine plenty. I see many good Bishops out there as well. I think it is a mistake to judge the National Bishops Conferences based on comments on a web site. Those comments may be insightful and interesting, but they are not enough to damn the lot. I also think it is a stretch to say the Church in Rome is broke and leading us nowhere good.
If fault is found or mistakes are made hopefully people learn and adapt. Again we can not expect perfection from human instruments. I also think that we American’s are poor followers. (This assessment probably applies to the west in general but I wouldn’t want to be labeled an arrogant American by my judgmental and self centered nature so let’s not worry about the rest of the west.) We see nothing but faults and problems and fail to perceive the good. We are especially critical when our leaders do not agree with what we think, or don’t do what we expect. We really should work to understand and dare I say accept the Church’s direction not work to criticize the Church’s direction. Unless of course we want to justify our descent by condemning the institution as clueless.
I guess I do take offense when people criticize my Bishop.
Christ’s Peace,
TJD
If fault is found or mistakes are made hopefully people learn and adapt. Again we can not expect perfection from human instruments. I also think that we American’s are poor followers. (This assessment probably applies to the west in general but I wouldn’t want to be labeled an arrogant American by my judgmental and self centered nature so let’s not worry about the rest of the west.) We see nothing but faults and problems and fail to perceive the good. We are especially critical when our leaders do not agree with what we think, or don’t do what we expect. We really should work to understand and dare I say accept the Church’s direction not work to criticize the Church’s direction. Unless of course we want to justify our descent by condemning the institution as clueless.
I guess I do take offense when people criticize my Bishop.
Christ’s Peace,
TJD
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HagiaSophia
Guest
I love ours too. A recent one, he’s a jewel. I have at least a half dozen favorites on my list these days which is a vast improvement over the past. Too many of the smaller, less high profile ones were also buried in the “National Council” group I think as well. Since the “crack” in the stranglehold this past year that some of the more progressive factions once held, many more bishops are feeling more free to speak out and I like it — a great deal.
I have no use for the National Councils. None. It was an abysmal idea IMO. I make my judgment not on any article but on what has happened within the church since they began “pushing and shoving”.
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Mike_Dye
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Regarding my previous post…Yes I was being sarcastic…forgot I was on the internet for a minute, in the future I will try to be more clear.
Mike
Mike
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TOME
Guest
Since my fist post on this thread I’ve read some criticism of the methods used to choose a Bishop as well as criticsm of Pope John II’s choices of some of our Bishops. From these observation there has been the opinion by some that there should be a new method for choosing bishops. I would like to add that we should look at the bigger picture. That is, how well does this system work through out the world and not just the United States? Is this preceived weekness systemic through out the Church or less an American problem, if there truely is a problem?
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Michael_Welter
Guest
A very good question, indeed. In fact, that is the perspective that the Vatican takes. It’s a difficult question to answer from my perspective, as I only have first hand knowledge of the Church in the United States.
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youthcrusader
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I couldn’t agree more. Customs and practices can come and go in the Church, depending on the particular place and time. Customs such as the use/non-use of holy water, the Sign of the Cross, priestly celebacy, etc., can be modified, changed, or even abandoned depending on the situation. For now, I think it best to leave this task to the Holy Father until such controversial issues such as gay marriage, abortion, etc., especially in America, are dealt with first. Perhaps in the future, the Bishop of Rome will have his brother bishops partipate more fully in the ordination of the episcopate.
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buffalo
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The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It flows down from God not up from man.
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TNT
Guest
** Choosing Bishops…should the Pope continue picking bishops?
** Considering the general outcome of the choices made in the last 30 years, I recommend using a dart board method which would give a much higher probability rate of orthodoxy in the episcopate.
** Considering the general outcome of the choices made in the last 30 years, I recommend using a dart board method which would give a much higher probability rate of orthodoxy in the episcopate.
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