Choosing Not to Believe

[rick43235]

…if one chooses not to believe in God…

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

 

[eliz124]

Hi I kinda sorta understand what you are saying. I was raised Catholic Cradel Catholic they call it and I have had intense periods of belief and intense periods of I just don’t know and intense periods of nah. I struggle with it all the time. I even find it hard to pray sometimes and other times I just cant help myself. I pray. I comfort myself with the thought that there was an apostle named Thomas…

 

[pablope]

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

well, what would convince you that it is true?

 

[1sicht]

OP, your post touches on the whole issue of whether faith is a “gift” or an action of the will. The Calvinist, for example, would claim having faith is “all of God,” you have nothing to do with it, whereas the “Armininian” (Calvinist term for any Christian who’s not a Calvinist ) would say it is very much a question of your “making the decision.” A person who’s neither a Calvinist, nor an Armininian, might point out that in the Bible, both “faith as gift” and “faith as obedience/choosing” are taught. It’s one of the many (to me at least) maddening paradoxes in the Scriptures.

Hi I kinda sorta understand what you are saying. I was raised Catholic Cradel Catholic they call it and I have had intense periods of belief and intense periods of I just don’t know and intense periods of nah. I struggle with it all the time. I even find it hard to pray sometimes and other times I just cant help myself. I pray. I comfort myself with the thought that there was an apostle named Thomas…

Your candor is refreshing!

 

[Randy_Carson]

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

We can believe what we choose. [But] we are answerable for what we choose to believe. — Newman, John Henry, Cardinal (1801-1890), Letter to Mrs Froude, 1848.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

Rick - I understand completely. That was where I was just 2 years ago. My wife and children prayed for me for years.

Faith is a gift. About the only thing I ever prayed for was to believe - “Lord, if you’re out there then make me believe.” I just didn’t. I even felt bad when I would go to mass, because I felt like I was lying when everyone was saying the creed - “I belive in God the Father almighty…”

Then literally almost overnight, all that changed. I took down the barrier that kept me from believing (or God did). I then gave my “yes” to joining the church and now I believe it all - miracles, angels, saints, heaven, hell, purgatory - everything.

O Blood and water which gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us - I trust in you!

• from St Faustina’s diary

Are you familiar with St Augustine? He was a wayward youth and his mother (St Monica) prayed for years for his conversion. He eventually became a doctor of the church.

Here’s one of my favorite St Augustine quotes:

Oh, too late have I loved thee, beauty so ancient and so new, too late have I loved thee. Behold, thou wast within me and I was searching outside, among the beauty of thy creation. At last, didst thou call out loud, didst thou force open my deafness and didst chase away my blindness. Thou didst breathe fragrant odours and I drew in my breath; and now I pant for thee. Thou didst touch me, and I burned for thy peace. Lord, have pity on me; my evil sorrows contend with my good joys. Lord, have pity on me. Thou art the Physician, I am the sick man; thou art merciful, I need mercy. Is not the life of man on earth an ordeal? My whole hope is in thy exceeding great mercy and that alone. Give what thou commandest and command what thou wilt. O Love, O my God, enkindle me!

Peace,
John

 

[maryharket]

Sigh!

 This is the thing that drives me nuts! I can't stand when people are forced by their catholic spouse to attend mass as some kind of juvenile compromise. I don't think anyone married or not has the right to force their non-believing spouse to attend church-any kind of church. I feel sorry for the OP because apparently their spouse can't be a catholic by themselves-oh no!-they have to have the other person tagging along for show perhaps! I think its disrespectful and insulting to both spouses. I have been married for over 2 decades and never once forced my spouse to attend mass. It was none of my business! He is a good husband and father and my best friend and that is enough. Gradually he has come to a love of the faith through his own discernment but still says he has issues with things in it. Fine! Let that be his right. I pray that he comes to the fullness of the faith and I trust God will make this happen but that is between him and God not me and him. 

 My advice for the OP is do what you need to do to be spiritually fulfilled. Maybe if left alone to make your own decisions you will come to believe or you won't but as adults we have free will to make our own choices and no one should be coerced, threatened, bribed, shamed or manipulated in any other way to attend any church.

Take Care

Mary M.

 

[1sicht]

This is the thing that drives me nuts! I can’t stand when people are forced by their catholic spouse to attend mass as some kind of juvenile compromise. I don’t think anyone married or not has the right to force their non-believing spouse to attend church-any kind of church… no one should be coerced, threatened, bribed, shamed or manipulated in any other way to attend any church.

Mary, if I may speak on behalf of Rick, from his posts here at CAF, I’ve not in any way gotten the impression that his wife is forcing him; he seems to do it of his own accord, and he always speaks very positively about it.

But I agree with you that in the case of one spouse pressuring the other to attend, that is wrong.

 

[mellestad]

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

Yea, I get what you are saying. You can’t choose what to believe, our thought process doesn’t work like that.

At least, you can’t choose what to believe in the sense people usually use. If someone wanted to get technical an argument can be made for putting yourself in situations where your beliefs might be influenced. Even if you are using psychology tricks or meditation though, all you are doing is trying to change your thought patterns. The actual change in belief isn’t a conscious decision, if it happens at all. Even then, you could make a counter-argument that the belief changed at the moment one started to pursue the change of belief.​

Hmm. I dunno, I guess it depends on definition. It might come down to a ‘normal’ conversation about choice, or it might come down to free will and determinism, depending on how the question is approached. From either perspective though, I’d agree with you that beliefs are not voluntary.

 

[maryharket]

Mary, if I may speak on behalf of Rick, from his posts here at CAF, I’ve not in any way gotten the impression that his wife is forcing him; he seems to do it of his own accord, and he always speaks very positively about it.

But I agree with you that in the case of one spouse pressuring the other to attend, that is wrong.

Sorry about that. Truly wasn’t meaning to offend. But honestly, I could pull up multiple posts on the subject for “well meaning” spouses, parents, etc that believe that if they drag so and so to mass that they will somehow turn them into believers and from what I’ve seen talking to couples who have hog tied their spouse and drug them to church, it doesn’t work. It would be nice if only people of the same faith married but you can’t choose who you fall in love with, but what’s disturbing is that one person often times goes into a marriage knowing that their intended does not believe but thinks (in the case of men-that she can change him) and I think that’s infringing on the other person’s rights. I don’t understand why the OP would bring this topic up if he wasn’t struggling with the concept of belief (not struggling for himself but struggling with trying to navigate a faith he does not subscribe to because he’s married to a woman who is catholic). Whats sad about this is after a while the believing spouse will be faced with 2 choices-1-finally understand that their partner does not and will not convert and finally leave it alone. or 2-walk away from the faith and join their spouse in another faith which would be damaging to the catholic involved.

I just see that marriages often are built on expectations that one person will change for the other and when in regards to religion this is playing with fire. Religion is much too important to just leave to chance. Unless the non-catholic is willing to convert there should be no marriage. The faith will always be a wedge issue unless the believer is strong enough to respect the non-believer and leave them alone to sort out their own spiritual path. Should the OP convert in their heart? Maybe! Should he be taken to Mass? NO! That’s all I’m saying. You can’t make anyone believe anything. I am on the side of the OP and feel sorry for his predicament. I hope this doesn’t strain his marriage to the point of breaking. I wish his wife was more accepting of his non-belief- if she were he wouldn’t have to go through one mass after another hearing words he can’t believe in just to maintain peace in the marriage. That’s all I’m saying. Sorry if I offended anyone again. That seems to be my talent on this forum. But if someone brings up an issue in their life they are looking for advice and opinions-if not then they wouldn’t post on the forum and just lurk.

Take Care Mary

 

[DPMartin]

The above quote is from another thread which I don’t want to de-rail by taking if off topic. Consequently, I will make my comments here.

I don’t understand the idea of “choosing” to believe or not to believe. Speaking for myself, I didn’t choose to not believe - I just don’t. I attend mass with my Catholic wife every Sunday. I find the experience to be a peaceful, reflective way to start the week. I enjoy interacting with a group of nice people. I even enjoy the solemnity and the ritual of the mass. But, I don’t believe a word of it. Again, not because of a choice I made. I just see nothing that convinces me that it’s true.

Rick

I would say that repenting is the choice of the individual, who would submit to God’s Choice for them. Jesus said repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Therefore repenting or turn from, to another is the choice. But in the case of men and God. It is to repent from one’s own choice to receive God’s Choice Which is Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

For you will do what you believe. Or better said, trust. And if what you trust, you find out shouldn’t be trusted, then you repent from that and seek what should be trusted. at least that is many come to the Lord.

 

[rick43235]

Mary, if I may speak on behalf of Rick, from his posts here at CAF, I’ve not in any way gotten the impression that his wife is forcing him; he seems to do it of his own accord, and he always speaks very positively about it.

This is true. I go in order to promote a bit of family harmony. It’s really a very small sacrifice. Plus, they have great donuts.

Sorry about that. Truly wasn’t meaning to offend.

No offense taken.

 

[AntiTheist]

Rick is spot on. “Belief” isn’t a choice…it’s a state of being convinced that something is true. One becomes convinced, usually, by evidence. Whether or not the standards of evidence that convince one are good enough is a matter of debate and discussion.

To use an obvious example, no one reading this thread could seriously “choose” to start believing in leprechauns. No one could seriously “choose” to believe that they could fly under their own power if they jumped out of a window.

Believing something is a result of being convinced that it is true. Now, some people who believe in, say, religion are convinced by things that just aren’t sufficient to demonstrate its truth. They’re convinced by things like the warm butterflies they get in their stomach when they pray or by appeals to authority.

 

[ServantJohn]

Rick is spot on. “Belief” isn’t a choice…it’s a state of being convinced that something is true. One becomes convinced, usually, by evidence. Whether or not the standards of evidence that convince one are good enough is a matter of debate and discussion.

To use an obvious example, no one reading this thread could seriously “choose” to start believing in leprechauns. No one could seriously “choose” to believe that they could fly under their own power if they jumped out of a window.

Believing something is a result of being convinced that it is true. Now, some people who believe in, say, religion are convinced by things that just aren’t sufficient to demonstrate its truth. They’re convinced by things like the warm butterflies they get in their stomach when they pray or by appeals to authority.

And then there are those who believe because the evidence demands that they do. And some who do not believe are in denial.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Rick is spot on. “Belief” isn’t a choice…it’s a state of being convinced that something is true. One becomes convinced, usually, by evidence. Whether or not the standards of evidence that convince one are good enough is a matter of debate and discussion.

Believing something is a result of being convinced that it is true.

Serious question, do you accept the theories of the Big Bang and Evolution?

 

[AntiTheist]

Serious question, do you accept the theories of the Big Bang and Evolution?

Yes, on the basis of evidence. Mountains and mountains and mountains of cold, hard evidence, including but not limited to the predictive power of those theories, consistently confirmed by discoveries.

EDIT: It goes without saying, though I probably should say it for this audience, that in science, the word “theory” does not mean what the word “theory” does in colloquial speech. In colloquial speech, the word means, “a hunch” or a “good guess.” In science, the word “theory” refers to a model that explains observed facts, a model that has been consistently tested and that has demonstrated a strong ability to predict things. An hypothesis needs quite a bit of evidence to be considered a “theory.”

 

[ServantJohn]

though I probably should say it for this audience,

There are plenty of Christians with science backgrounds. I have a degree in environmental science so am well aware of the various usages of the term theory.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Yes, on the basis of evidence. Mountains and mountains and mountains of cold, hard evidence, including but not limited to the predictive power of those theories, consistently confirmed by discoveries.

You accept the big bang theory? So do you accept the first cause then?

Evolution: Mountain of evidence? The evidence I read from molecular biologists disprove that we evolved from hominids and Homo neanderthalensis has been proven to be too genetically different from us to have been our ancestor. What evidence are you referring too?

 

[AntiTheist]

You accept the big bang theory? So do you accept the first cause then?

Well, no one knows what caused the Big Bang, or even if “cause” is the right word (time might not have existed before the Big Bang, and as a result, causality might not have existed).

If there was a “first cause,” though, I see no reason to think that it was an intelligent cause. It could have been an unintelligent, blind force.

Evolution: Mountain of evidence?

No. Mountains and mountains and mountains of evidence.

What evidence are you referring too?

Every last thing we’ve ever learned about biology, the fossil record (including transitional forms), DNA, comparative anatomy, phylogeny, geographical distribution of species, observations of natural selection and speciation, and other areas of study that independently demonstrate evolution.

What is this, twenty questions? Do you have a point here?

 

[AntiTheist]

There are plenty of Christians with science backgrounds. I have a degree in environmental science so am well aware of the various usages of the term theory.

Good on you, John. My clarification was for those posters who don’t have a clue about science, like the guy who just seriously asked me “what evidence” demonstrates evolution, as if he isn’t aware that there is a vast body of evidence that stretches across multiple scientific disciplines to confirm evolution.