Choosing our miracles

[Valke2]

Valke,
That answer is logical. Is it the most likely of the bunch? Also, how does it line up with those who want to rebuild the temple and restart the sacrificial system?

Not very well. Which is a bit of a problem. All I can say is Judaism never has and never will have a shortage of opinions. Rambam himself was not an advocate for restoring sacrifices. He basically said “look, I don’t believe we will have to restart the sacrifical system. But I could be wrong. So here’s my extensive commentary on sacrifices.” Most orthodox Jews and most jews in general believe that when the TEmple is rebuilt we will resume sacrifices.

One of the things I find fascinating about Judaism the more I study it is that, within the framework of Torah and Jewish Law, there is an incredible amount of diversity and evolution of our faith. And at the same time there seems to be, today, a general failure among Jews to understand this or even be aware of it.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamba,
The problem with your experiment is two fold. First, it does not take into account the resonance or torsional rigidity of the structures. Secondly, the earth does not so much shake in an earthquake as it move is waves. That being the case, the more narrow structure can ride the crests and troughs better than the larger one that has part of its structure up and part down. I can show you pictures of non-religious buildings that survived disasters. Many of the highrise hotels in teh wake of the tsunami stood with minimal damage. I’ve also asked this before in wake of this type of post: how many holy, devout Muslims died in the tsunami or earthquake or the recent typhoon? If the answer is more than zero, what have you proven?

I would think that seismic wave movement in an earthquake is only a significant factor over a large geograhical region and not really applicable at all in a small localised area like that around the mosque in the photo.

As for the “resonance or torsional rigidity of the structure”, somehow I do not think that the minaret has so much flexibility as to bend without breaking.

On the Last Day when the whole world comes to an end and all life is extinguished, believers and non-believers alike will be killed without discrimination.

Therefore, I do not see there being any issue or significance at all about the numbers of “holy, devout Muslims who died in the tsunami or earthquake or the recent typhoon”.

 

[ralphinal]

Valke,
I am not surprised. I knew that there were Reform, Orthodox, Etc. in the Jewish faith, but it does not surprise me that the divisions are not limited to that,

Hamba,
The reason it matters is simple. Buildings are easy to replace, people can never be replaced. If you show pictures of buildings surviving as proof of Islam, but the percentage of Muslims who died is equal to the general population, then I am not inclined to care. After all, why would God save a building and allow the people to die?

 

[hamba2han]

After all, why would God save a building and allow the people to die?

Unbelievers should not rejoice too much over their “escape” from these natural calamities because their respite is only temporary.

Al-Qur’an, 003.178
Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment.

 

[exoflare]

Unbelievers should not rejoice too much over their “escape” from these natural calamities because their respite is only temporary.

Same goes for the buildings. But as usual, you don’t care because you are just making up your reasoning as you go along…

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There are lots of “rationally sound and objective” reasons, one of which I have already pointed out here.

Yes, i understand that the Quran uses the words “king of Egypt” to refer to the ruler of the ancient Egyptions. The Bible does the same, as i pointed out in my reply.

Please tell me any more convincing reasons why only Allah could have authored the Quran. Do you have any objective evidence that the Quran itself is a miracle?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’ll give you one Jewish answer to the first question. … In other words, He said. "Listen, I’m not crazy about sacrifices but if you’re going to do them, you’re going to do them under my Rules.

So if we are to take that view, as Jews, then the destruction of the Temple, which resulted in the cessation of sacrifices, resulted in a shift in worship that perhaps was closer to what God wanted. Prayer, intent, and deeds (mitzvot). …

Fascinating answer V2! I had never considered God permitting, but not really approving of sacrifices. I believe he did the same with divorce.

What answer do you have (if you don’t mind giving one) about the Christian assertion that the sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins were symbolic of a greater sacrifice that was to come? I’m really not looking for a debate (unless you would like a longer dialog) i’m just interested in a thoughtful Jewish response. I won’t be offended by whatever you have to say.

 

[Valke2]

Fascinating answer V2! I had never considered God permitting, but not really approving of sacrifices. I believe he did the same with divorce.

What answer do you have (if you don’t mind giving one) about the Christian assertion that the sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins were symbolic of a greater sacrifice that was to come? I’m really not looking for a debate (unless you would like a longer dialog) i’m just interested in a thoughtful Jewish response. I won’t be offended by whatever you have to say.

My short answer would be that you can arrive at the Christian explanation only if you first accept the fact that Jesus is God and died for our sins, and then look backward into the texts. You really can’t get from the text to Jesus unless you already believe Jesus is God.

So my answer would be that there is nothing in my scripture that suggests any of the sacrifices – sin offerings or otherwise – were symbolic of any greater future sacrifice. This is especially the case as Jews have never believed that a blood sacrifice was the only way to obtain God’s forgivness. Blood was of course used in sacrifical rituals. But it was never the only means. Look at Jonah, where a whole city is redeemed through repetence.

Another point: Judaism never taught that sacrifices had anything to do with the coming of the Messiah. Rather, it offered ritual sacrifices, prayer, and deeds as the means of atonement. THe idea of a supernatural sacrifice on behalf of all mankind is not something that was generally taught in our scripture.

Ok, so it wasn’t exactly a short answer. I think I’ll start a new thread on this topic. I will help me clarify my thoughts on it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… This is especially the case as Jews have never believed that a blood sacrifice was the only way to obtain God’s forgivness. Blood was of course used in sacrifical rituals. But it was never the only means. Look at Jonah, where a whole city is redeemed through repetence. … Ok, so it wasn’t exactly a short answer. I think I’ll start a new thread on this topic. I will help me clarify my thoughts on it.

You make an extremely good point about the people of the ancient city of Nineveh.

3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Here i see repentance, prayer and fasting as a means of seeking God’s forgiveness. It makes sense to me that sacrificing an animal for the sins of oneself and one’s family would not be a sincere method of asking forgiveness if it was not accompanied by genuine repentance.

 

[paarsurrey]

You make an extremely good point about the people of the ancient city of Nineveh.

3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city—a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.” 5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.
Here i see repentance, prayer and fasting as a means of seeking God’s forgiveness. It makes sense to me that sacrificing an animal for the sins of oneself and one’s family would not be a sincere method of asking forgiveness if it was not accompanied by genuine repentance.

Hi

I agree with you both. Repentence and asking forgiveness is a must, if it is accompanied with sacrifice also that would be as a token of sincerity.

Thanks

 

[Valke2]

Hi

I agree with you both. Repentence and asking forgiveness is a must, if it is accompanied with sacrifice also that would be as a token of sincerity.

Thanks

Nicely put. (both of you)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Nicely put. (both of you)

TY V2. There was a time in my life when i did not think repetance was a requirement as far as God was concerned. I called myself a Christian but lived like a devil.

I thought i was justified in what i was doing, but what always bothered me was that the Baptists who taught me that God’s forgiveness was a free gift were also serious about always being careful to do what they believed was right.

One evening when i was a student at a university i was commiting a sin i had committed without feeling any guilt so many times before. Then i heard this voice in my head that said, “This is wrong.”

I was doing drugs at the time, so i suppose it could have been an halucination, but i’ve been told that people usually only hallucinate what they expect or want to happen. This caught me by surprise. I haven’t had an experience like that since, so i do not suppose i’m a nut job.

At any rate, i took my Bible off the shelf and started reading it again, and i encountered passages like this:

“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

– Jesus (Matthew 4)
and

“Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord … .”

– St. Peter (Acts 3)

and

“… and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.”

– St. Paul (Acts 26)
And a light of turned on as i prayed, “Oh my God, you really do require repentance!”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi

I agree with you both. Repentence and asking forgiveness is a must, if it is accompanied with sacrifice also that would be as a token of sincerity.

Thanks

Paarsurrey:

I suppose this theme of repentance is one that Muslims, Jewish people, Catholics and Christians all should share. It’s a topic on which we might all find common ground on which to build, i think.

 

[ralphinal]

Paarsurrey:

I suppose this theme of repentance is one that Muslims, Jewish people, Catholics and Christians all should share. It’s a topic on which we might all find common ground on which to build, i think.

I agree

 

[Reuben_J]

Look like this thread has run out of steam.

Maybe the OP wants to cite more miracles in the Bible that should not be there or miracles by Mohammad that are not in the Quran but should be there?

 

[Booklover]

Look like this thread has run out of steam.

Maybe the OP wants to cite more miracles in the Bible that should not be there or miracles by Mohammad that are not in the Quran but should be there?

We could ask Hamba to tell us how many miracles have been attributed to Muhammad after his death!

Vickie

 

[Reuben_J]

We could ask Hamba to tell us how many miracles have been attributed to Muhammad after his death!

Vickie

Or an after-thought, Vickie?

Caught them, right?

Seriously though, the great miracle - the Quran itself. Miracle that it is still being believed today considering that they are words of one man with no witness at all. Now, nobody can fault the great faith of people who believe in this!

 

[De_Maria]

Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible

There is no prohibition of alcohol in the Bible.

The Bible prohibits the consumption of alcohol in the following verses:

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

I don’t see any prohibition here. But a warning against being drunk.

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

Could it be any clearer? Be not drunk…

And we also need to remember the following:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[Matthew 5:17-20]

Based on these Biblical verses, it is therefore simply inconceivable that Jesus (pbuh) would have been drinking alcohol and that he would have even considered performing this “miracle” of turning water into wine.

Based on YOUR interpretation of these Bible verses. But your interpretation is false.

A true interpretation leads to the Catholic understanding that alcohol is good in moderation.

											[Nehemiah 8:10](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=16&chapterId=8&verseId=10&page=1#x)
					 						And he said to them: Go, eat fat meats, and drink sweet wine, and send portions to them that have not prepared for themselves: because it is the holy day of the Lord, and be not sad: for the joy of the Lord is our strength.

2 Maccabees 15:40
For as it is hurtful to drink always wine, or always water, but pleasant to use sometimes the one, and sometimes the other: so if the speech be always nicely framed, it will not be grateful to the readers. But here it shall be ended.

											[1 Timothy 5:23](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=61&chapterId=5&verseId=23&page=2#x)
					
					Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thy frequent infirmities.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I have been on another thread and the discussion there has veered towards the subject of ‘miracles of the Creator’ which is somewhat unrelated to the topic of that particular thread.

Anyhow, there is a miracle concerning Jesus (pbuh) which Christians believe Jesus did but Muslims do not accept to be true… and there is also a miracle that Muslims believe Jesus did but Christians do not.

First, let us examine the miracle that Christians believe Jesus did but Muslims do not i.e. the one whereby Jesus supposedly turned water into wine.

In the Bible, we see that Jesus consecrated himself to God

Jesus is God. Show me where in the Bible Jesus said that He was a Nazirite according to the instructions in Numbers 6:1-4?

and therefore abstained from alcoholic drinks

Even if Jesus did make a Nazirite vow, which He didn’t, He still would not need to abstain from alcohol:

Numbers 6:13And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: … 20And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

according to the instructions recorded in Numbers 6:1-4:

“And the Lord said to Moses,
‘Say to the people of Israel, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of the Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,
he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink, and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.
All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.”

And so, how then does it make sense that Jesus should perform this “miracle” of turning water into wine when he himself religiously abstained from drinking alcohol?

There is no evidence that Jesus made the Nazirite vow.

Jesus abstained from all food and drink when He fasted in the desert. Yet He multiplied the loaves and fish.

Now, let us turn to the miracle that Muslims believe Jesus (pbuh) did and in fact, it was the very first miracle among the various that he performed throughout his life.
… Why do Christians choose not to believe this lovely miracle of Jesus talking as a baby in his cradle and thereby protecting the honour of his mother…

Because truth is important. Beauty is not equal to truth. We do not believe things simply because we want them to be true.

Since the above story is false, we do not believe it.

but instead they choose to believe that he turned water into wine which, as has been shown above, directly contradicts the instructions in the Bible not to consume alcohol?

The Bible does not prohibit nor even suggest that one should not drink alcohol. In fact, the Bible invites us to drink alcohol for pleasure and for our health.

                                              [2 Maccabees 15:40](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=46&chapterId=15&verseId=40&page=1#x)
                                             For as it is hurtful to drink always wine, or always water, but pleasant to use sometimes the one, and sometimes the other: so if the speech be always nicely framed, it will not be grateful to the readers. But here it shall be ended. 

                                            [1 Timothy 5:23](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=61&chapterId=5&verseId=23&page=2#x)
                                             Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thy frequent infirmities.

Sincerely,

De Maria