Choosing to eliminate unwanted daughters

[marietta]

mapleoak:

Hmmmm, I think I’d rather be a third grader and know all there is to know about biology, ethics and belief systems than to be 56 years old and struggle with these complex issues from every single angle and not just from the vantage point of Catholicism.
Third graders get all the breaks.

If your nearest 9-year-old can persuasively answer the question, “What is the theology of the individual”, then I want to manage his or her career and at least get the child a reality t.v. show.

If murder is “the unjust killing of an innocent person”, then would there also, conversely, be a “just killing of an innocent person”?

Holly3278, you folded too soon. You will often see religion and legislation intermingled on this site. Every Christian has the right and, perhaps, the responsibiity to choose to deliver every conceived child, whether it is a normal, healthy baby, or whether it has hydrocephalus, spina bifida, anencephaly, any of the Trisomy conditions, or any anomaly whatever - and to accept that challenge to raise the child, if it survives, to its greatest longevity and potential. Every Christian also has the right to vote and to change legislation if the numbers at the polls are great enough.

We have the freedom in this country to be the architects of our lives and our afterlives. I would no more scorn the Christian woman who chooses to give birth to a special needs child and raise it the best she and her family can than I would for one second permit anyone, Christian or not, to prohibit me from choosing abortion if I were unable to continue my pregnancy for lack of money, home, partner, mental capacity or any other reason.

To allow onself to get beaten down is to condone bullying and to volunteer to be stripped of one’s own conscience. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. It means it’s between you and your God, and nobody else has an invitation to interfere in your decision-making. There are folks in the United States who have been threatened, shot, bombed and killed by zealots who say they are pro-life, convinced that they are doing “God’s work”. These are “unjust killings” of innocent persons. No human being has the capacity or the authority to judge or condemn anyone engaged in the turmoil of abortion. We each make choices for ourselves, do our best to guide our children, stay in conscious contact with God, and lead with humility. The issue of abortion in the U.S. will never be agreed-upon by the polarized factions. So choose for yourself. That’s what pro-choice is.

marietta

 

[mapleoak]

mapleoak:

Hmmmm, I think I’d rather be a third grader and know all there is to know about biology, ethics and belief systems than to be 56 years old and struggle with these complex issues from every single angle and not just from the vantage point of Catholicism.
Third graders get all the breaks.

Why would you make it so complicated. I knew what an individual was way back when I was in third grade, and I am sure most do now. Have faith in our youth, and if you don’t, what are you doing to solve that problem?

If murder is “the unjust killing of an innocent person”, then would there also, conversely, be a “just killing of an innocent person”?

Nope, you don’t need to know all that much about how qualifiers in the English language work to modify the words they support. The premise of there being a need for the converse notion is not necessary. The sentence stands as is “Murder is the unjust killing of an innocent person”. In part we could rearrange it to derive the same meaning “The killing of an innocent person is unjust”.

**

Holly3278

, you folded too soon.**It is not about who wins. It is about rational discussion.

Every Christian has the right and, perhaps, the responsibiity to choose to deliver every conceived child,

Correct.

whether it is a normal, healthy baby, or whether it has hydrocephalus, spina bifida, anencephaly, any of the Trisomy conditions, or any anomaly whatever

A human being

• and to accept that challenge to raise the child, if it survives, to its greatest longevity and potential.

The challenge was accepted at conception.

Every Christian also has the right to vote and to change legislation if the numbers at the polls are great enough.

The obligation remains whether the numbers at the polls are great enough or not.

We have the freedom in this country to be the architects of our lives and our afterlives.

And with freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility for not only me, myself, and I, but for others as well - especially those who cannot speak for themselves.

I would no more scorn the Christian woman who chooses to give birth to a special needs child and raise it the best she and her family can

What does special needs have to do with the humanity of a living human being?

than I would for one second permit anyone, Christian or not, to prohibit me from choosing abortion if I were unable to continue my pregnancy for lack of money, home, partner, mental capacity or any other reason.

Whether Christian or not, prohibiting you from choosing murder if you deemed yourself unable to continue safeguarding the human life inside of you, for whatever reason, is our obligation. Lack of money (or any other material good for that matter) does not justify murder. You need to present a better argument.

To allow onself to get beaten down is to condone bullying and to volunteer to be stripped of one’s own conscience.

Again, it hasn’t nothing to do with “who wins”, but rather concern that the unborn are not killed. That is all that matters.

Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion.

Yes it does. Besides the point, whatever you call yourself, if you support murder whether you yourself commit murder or not, you are still pro-murder. Same with abortion.

It means it’s between you and your God, and nobody else has an invitation to interfere in your decision-making.

Unfortunately that is not true, because there is another person involved. And that person cannot defend himself so he needs someone to come to his defense. A perceived right to make a decision comes secondary to a human being’s right not to be murdered. In fact it is a whole different order of magnitude on the moral scale.

There are folks in the United States who have been threatened, shot, bombed and killed by zealots who say they are pro-life, convinced that they are doing “God’s work”.

Side tracking the issue. Because there are bad apples, does not mean an unborn child is not a human being and deserves to die.

These are “unjust killings” of innocent persons.

All unjust killing of innocent persons is wrong. This includes the unborn.

No human being has the capacity or the authority to judge or condemn anyone engaged in the turmoil of abortion.

Including the unborn child. The unborn child should not be condemned to death in the turmoil of abortion.

We each make choices for ourselves, do our best to guide our children, stay in conscious contact with God, and lead with humility. The issue of abortion in the U.S. will never be agreed-upon by the polarized factions. So choose for yourself. That’s what pro-choice is.

And the unborn human beings deserve to live and be able to make choices as well. Choosing murder works for no one.

 

[PapaSquash]

In the high-income state of Punjab, notes Joseph D’Agostino of the Population Research Institute, there are only 793 girls for every 1,000 boys. He cites a report by UNICEF, which calculates that “7,000 fewer girls are now born in India each day than nature would dictate, and 10 million have been killed during pregnancy or just after in the past 20 years.”

There’s a horrifying tidbit for you. Are those “just after” cases a private matter also? What makes them different?

 

[Holly3278]

There’s a horrifying tidbit for you. Are those “just after” cases a private matter also? What makes them different?

I don’t know if your post was directed towards me or not but I’ll answer it. Those are obviously not a private matter. But then again, I am for banning abortions except for certain circumstances after 18 weeks gestation.

 

[PapaSquash]

It was not directed at you.

I was trying to point out that there is arguably no real difference in killing a pre-born baby and a new-born baby.

 

[Holly3278]

It was not directed at you.

I was trying to point out that there is arguably no real difference in killing a pre-born baby and a new-born baby.

Oh ok. Thanks PapaSquash.

 

[brandymmiller]

Birth control pills, IUDs, abortion, sexual liberation - these have all hurt some women to some degree; but they can each be traced back to the demands and desires of men. Without the sick culture that surrounds children, without the parents who aren’t paying enough attention, without the pressures and desires and demands of males, much of the need for contraceptives and abortion would be eliminated.

I would venture to guess that most 13-year-old girls today have absolutely no desire to get horizontal with some young boy. But ask the boys what they think about day and night (aside from their skateboarding and texting). Rites of passage? Get off me!

marietta

You have several misconceptions in this statement. My 12 year old doesn’t care about girls a whit, nor is he interested in sex. He has kissed exactly one girl and that was his girlfriend at the beginning of the year. She asked him to be her boyfriend, she pursued the kiss, not the other way around. Boys only think about sex all the time when they are raised in a sexually permeated environment, just as girls who are promiscuous have been educated to be promiscuous.

Women sought sexual liberation, thinking it would empower them because we didn’t understand or appreciate the power we already had. We sought the birth control, believing it would give us control over our bodies when in point of fact it destroys them. We sought the abortions because we didn’t want to be “burdened” with the self-sacrifice required for child rearing. We chose these things. Men didn’t choose this, we did. To lay the blame for societies problems at the feet of men is grossly unjust and moreover completely ignorant. Men didn’t help. Men encouraged birth control and abortion so they could escape the responsibilities that came with their gift of sexuality. Sick men have used it to hide the wrong things they do to young girls. However, it cannot solely be blamed on men. To say so is to paint women as helpless victims unable to control themselves or their destiny - and THAT is a statement I completely reject.

 

[Naztakuan]

Hmmm, I am thinking now and I don’t know if I should be pro-life or pro-choice. I just want to be orthodox in my Christian views of things and I want to know the truth of things. Maybe I am wrong to be pro-choice.

Ok, so you have a point. Maybe I am wrong to be pro-choice. I just don’t see why something that is a religiously based argument should be used to justify outlawing abortion.

Yeah and you can argue that the idea of right and wrong in pertaining to murder is just a religious arguement. I mean really. Who decided murder was so bad anyway? Sounds like some silly religious arguement to me. Perhaps the world would be alot better if it were legal to kill those that make us miserable and take up space. I’m pretty sure there are ppl in the world who think the idea that “killing is wrong” is absolutely stupid and dogmatic.

 

[Kaninchen]

Women sought sexual liberation, thinking it would empower them because we didn’t understand or appreciate the power we already had. We sought the birth control, believing it would give us control over our bodies when in point of fact it destroys them. We sought the abortions because we didn’t want to be “burdened” with the self-sacrifice required for child rearing. We chose these things. Men didn’t choose this, we did. To lay the blame for societies problems at the feet of men is grossly unjust and moreover completely ignorant. Men didn’t help. Men encouraged birth control and abortion so they could escape the responsibilities that came with their gift of sexuality. Sick men have used it to hide the wrong things they do to young girls. However, it cannot solely be blamed on men. To say so is to paint women as helpless victims unable to control themselves or their destiny - and THAT is a statement I completely reject.

Rather an a-historical analysis, I would suggest. There was a before before there was an after and, while many of the changes are double-edged, you won’t find many who would want to go back.

 

[sweetpea8319]

I don’t know if your post was directed towards me or not but I’ll answer it. Those are obviously not a private matter. But then again, I am for banning abortions except for certain circumstances after 18 weeks gestation.

Holly3278, why would you consider abortion even then? By that time, the child would be almost 5 MONTHS old!!! This child who is almost old enough to survive outside the womb, you would say it’s okay to kill? Why? Because a test says the baby has a 95% chance of being mentally handicapped? Is that one reason? My husbands’ sister was told her child was going to be handicapped, the test was 95% positive, and she said no to abortion. Her baby was born perfectly normal!

What circumstance would ever condone abortion? Rape? Incest? Was it the unborn baby’s fault that these evil actions happened? No! So why would one punish the child? So they were the result of an evil. But they are not evil! No, they are innocents. If anything were to happen, the child should be carried to term and given for adoption.

The only instance where a fertilized egg should be permitted to be removed is when the pregnancy occurs in the fallopian tubes, and the outcome would be the death of both mother and child if the fallopian tube is not removed. in this case, though, it is not the baby that is removed, with the intent to kill the unborn baby, but the fallopian tube in which the pregnancy has lodged.

People have talked about both pro-choice and pro-life, and those are the two choices a person is given. To be pro-choice does mean that you support factions that promote a culture of death. The pro-choice movement arose from the Feminist movement and freedom for women, but to be given freedom should not be at the cost of others. After all, half of the unborn babies are women. Should they not have the same rights as other women? They should have rights, just as the women who carry them do. There is an organization, however, that is Feminists for Life, made of feminists who have discerned the truth behind the “pro-choice” lie, and who choose the true freedom that women want. You should look at this group online, because it’s worth it, and seems to be what you believe. feministsforlife.org/who/aboutus.htm

 

[Holly3278]

Holly3278, why would you consider abortion even then? By that time, the child would be almost 5 MONTHS old!!! This child who is almost old enough to survive outside the womb, you would say it’s okay to kill? Why? Because a test says the baby has a 95% chance of being mentally handicapped? Is that one reason? My husbands’ sister was told her child was going to be handicapped, the test was 95% positive, and she said no to abortion. Her baby was born perfectly normal!

What circumstance would ever condone abortion? Rape? Incest? Was it the unborn baby’s fault that these evil actions happened? No! So why would one punish the child? So they were the result of an evil. But they are not evil! No, they are innocents. If anything were to happen, the child should be carried to term and given for adoption.

The only instance where a fertilized egg should be permitted to be removed is when the pregnancy occurs in the fallopian tubes, and the outcome would be the death of both mother and child if the fallopian tube is not removed. in this case, though, it is not the baby that is removed, with the intent to kill the unborn baby, but the fallopian tube in which the pregnancy has lodged.

People have talked about both pro-choice and pro-life, and those are the two choices a person is given. To be pro-choice does mean that you support factions that promote a culture of death. The pro-choice movement arose from the Feminist movement and freedom for women, but to be given freedom should not be at the cost of others. After all, half of the unborn babies are women. Should they not have the same rights as other women? They should have rights, just as the women who carry them do. There is an organization, however, that is Feminists for Life, made of feminists who have discerned the truth behind the “pro-choice” lie, and who choose the true freedom that women want. You should look at this group online, because it’s worth it, and seems to be what you believe. feministsforlife.org/who/aboutus.htm

Just because I wouldn’t choose abortion myself does not mean that others will not choose abortion. I personally think it should be something that is left up to the individual’s conscience.

 

[HelenRose]

Just because I wouldn’t choose abortion myself does not mean that others will not choose abortion. I personally think it should be something that is left up to the individual’s conscience.

This would be an acceptable concept if the life of a baby wasn’t the issue. It is like saying, it is a matter of conscience if I dispose of my two week old premature baby, who was born a month and a half or two months to early, because it is to much trouble to care for him. What is the difference between a two week old premature baby and an unborn child of the same gestation period?

It seem so odd to me that in one part of a hospital doctors are desperating saving the life of a premature baby weighting 2 or 3 pounds and on the other wing of the hospital babies of the same weight are being killed.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Just because I wouldn’t choose abortion myself does not mean that others will not choose abortion. I personally think it should be something that is left up to the individual’s conscience.

Just because you don’t choose to kill your husband it is ok if another person decides to do so? The logic of being against murder yet allowing others to commit murder is illogical.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Grade school level stuff.
Murder: The unjust killing of an innocent person.
Person: Human or Individual.

Therefore Abortion is the unjust killing of an innocent human or individual. More lessons on the elementary biology of what a human being or the simple theology of what an individual is can be garnered from your nearest 3rd grader.

Thank you I was doing the child care for choir last night.

 

[marietta]

mapleoak:

You give me entirely too much credit. I could never design the complexities of this life; but my responsibility as an individual is to examine them, to ponder them, to pray about them, and to act. I do not fall back on a group conscience to influence my decision-making. If I need to seek counsel, I do. But my behavior today is a direct result of conscious contact with God, not with the Pope or the bishop or the priest or the brother or any other “representatives” of salvation.

I do not discount most youth; many young people are engaged in progressive endeavors which will positively change the world we all live in. Yet some are, like I was many years ago, entangled in a web of self-hatred, with absolutely no guide for living, no goals, no prospects. Some escape. Others become dependent upon their community charities just to survive. Still others surrender their lives, lives which make misfortune appear to be terminal. And they die, from overdoses, suicides, murders. This is not out of the scope of my personal experience.

As a musician and vocalist, I’ve had the opportunity to share experience, strength and hope with countless adults, young and old alike, by performing in venues where outsiders simply don’t go, like Rahway State Prison in New Jersey, where nearly every inmate was a lifer, and CPC Psychiatric Hospital in Austin, Texas. Those kids could not connect: one had her head on the desk in front of her for the entire 90 minutes I performed. But one never knows what’s getting through. I was a cheerleader for wheelchair basketball. I have given guitar lessons to teenagers. I worked in a Montessori School in Texas, where I also brought music to the children. I have provided child care to kids ages six months to 2 years. I have sponsored young people in 12-step programs. And, most important, I raised my own beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, and wise daughter by myself, from the age of 15 months. She is now 21 years old, making her choices, developing her own spirituality.

What am I doing to “solve that problem”? Everything I can. So don’t even go there.

Your English language dog and pony show does not impress me. You can turn your phrases inside out if you like, but it all comes down to the man not saying what he means, which I view as part and parcel of this abortion problem. Thank you for that.

The deaths of women pursuing abortions, the maiming and murders of their doctors - this is *side-tracking the issue?! *Your arrogance is staggeringly offensive. There is absolutely no way we will agree on any part of this argument. I’m not trying to win anything. I’m simply stating my beliefs. You will not understand my position. So we are done.

I’d love to hear tales from your uterus.

**brandymmiller: **

If birth control pills destroy the female body, why are they routinely prescribed to very young teenage girls to regulate their periods?

Don’t raise your girls to be helpless victims. Vaccinate with Gardisil. Off-label vaccinate your boys as well, and please, do your part to eliminate the NEED for abortion: educate your children about how their bodies work - give them the facts. And cultivate the parallel spiritual life. Maybe they won’t be compelled to date-rape a classmate or smoke heroin in the girls’ room. Science is good for something. Use it.

Our opinions and beliefs come into existence through our experiences in life. Have you been sexually assaulted? Are you an alcoholic and drug addict? Have you ever been in the position where you even briefly considered abortion? Have you ever miscarried a pregnancy? Have you ever in your life missed a meal, been stone broke, had absolutely no one to rely on? You dare to call me ignorant? You want to try that again?

marietta

 

[mapleoak]

mapleoak:

You give me entirely too much credit.

It is always good give the benefit of the doubt to someone when unsure.

You provide a lot to respond to, however it can be summed as thus: None of what you wrote justifies the killing of an innocent human being, which is the issue.

I could never design the complexities of this life; but my responsibility as an individual is to examine them, to ponder them, to pray about them, and to act.

Which is a great way to approach things in life, so long as the actions don’t end in murder, nor submissively standing by and watching others commit murder.

I do not fall back on a group conscience to influence my decision-making.

You’ve got me here. Group conscience?

If I need to seek counsel, I do. But my behavior today is a direct result of conscious contact with God, not with the Pope or the bishop or the priest or the brother or any other “representatives” of salvation.

We have a responsibility to follow our conscience, however an even greater responsibility to make sure our conscience is well formed. Having not bothered to insure ones conscience is correctly formed is not an excuse for following a faulty conscience.

I do not discount most youth; many young people are engaged in progressive endeavors which will positively change the world we all live in. Yet some are, like I was many years ago, entangled in a web of self-hatred, with absolutely no guide for living, no goals, no prospects. Some escape. Others become dependent upon their community charities just to survive. Still others surrender their lives, lives which make misfortune appear to be terminal. And they die, from overdoses, suicides, murders. This is not out of the scope of my personal experience.

So you are saying it is better to kill innocent unborn human beings than to risk having them grow up in less than a silver spoon situation?

As a musician and vocalist, I’ve had the opportunity to share experience, strength and hope with countless adults, young and old alike, by performing in venues where outsiders simply don’t go, like Rahway State Prison in New Jersey, where nearly every inmate was a lifer, and CPC Psychiatric Hospital in Austin, Texas. Those kids could not connect: one had her head on the desk in front of her for the entire 90 minutes I performed. But one never knows what’s getting through. I was a cheerleader for wheelchair basketball. I have given guitar lessons to teenagers. I worked in a Montessori School in Texas, where I also brought music to the children. I have provided child care to kids ages six months to 2 years. I have sponsored young people in 12-step programs.

This is absolutely wonderful. You should be proud.

And, most important, I raised my own beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, and wise daughter by myself, from the age of 15 months. She is now 21 years old, making her choices, developing her own spirituality.

What am I doing to “solve that problem”? Everything I can. So don’t even go there.

The reply was in response to the indication that the world can be challenging place to live with the implication that that somehow provides the justification to murder children who will are unwanted by their mothers.

Your English language dog and pony show does not impress me. You can turn your phrases inside out if you like, but it all comes down to the man not saying what he means, which I view as part and parcel of this abortion problem. Thank you for that.

Good Heavens, what are you talking about?

The deaths of women pursuing abortions, the maiming and murders of their doctors - this is side-tracking the issue?!

Yes, it is kind of like saying “Hey, what right do you have to try and defend the lives of millions of unborn children when there is some whacko who shot someone?” That person should be dealth with on its own merit, but it does nothing to justify continuing to murder unborn children.

Your arrogance is staggeringly offensive. There is absolutely no way we will agree on any part of this argument.

Your arrogance is staggeringly offensive.

I’m not trying to win anything.

It was you who spoke of such things as “caving in too soon” and the like. Caving in is not what rational discussion seeks to accomplish. It is an attempt by one or both parties to pass ideas and possibly see if this is any error in ones way of thinking so that one can weed them out.

I’m simply stating my beliefs. You will not understand my position. So we are done.

Of course if you present your ideas, you shouldn’t be surprised when people respond to them.

I’d love to hear tales from your uterus.

Whatever tale it would have in no way affects the wrongness of killing innocent human beings.

 

[mapleoak]

Thank you I was doing the child care for choir last night.

You’re most welcome. God bless you!

 

[Riley259]

mapleoak:

Hmmmm, I think I’d rather be a third grader and know all there is to know about biology, ethics and belief systems than to be 56 years old and struggle with these complex issues from every single angle and not just from the vantage point of Catholicism.
Third graders get all the breaks.

If your nearest 9-year-old can persuasively answer the question, “What is the theology of the individual”, then I want to manage his or her career and at least get the child a reality t.v. show.

If murder is “the unjust killing of an innocent person”, then would there also, conversely, be a “just killing of an innocent person”?

Holly3278, you folded too soon. You will often see religion and legislation intermingled on this site. Every Christian has the right and, perhaps, the responsibiity to choose to deliver every conceived child, whether it is a normal, healthy baby, or whether it has hydrocephalus, spina bifida, anencephaly, any of the Trisomy conditions, or any anomaly whatever - and to accept that challenge to raise the child, if it survives, to its greatest longevity and potential. Every Christian also has the right to vote and to change legislation if the numbers at the polls are great enough.

We have the freedom in this country to be the architects of our lives and our afterlives. I would no more scorn the Christian woman who chooses to give birth to a special needs child and raise it the best she and her family can than I would for one second permit anyone, Christian or not, to prohibit me from choosing abortion if I were unable to continue my pregnancy for lack of money, home, partner, mental capacity or any other reason.

To allow onself to get beaten down is to condone bullying and to volunteer to be stripped of one’s own conscience. Pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. It means it’s between you and your God, and nobody else has an invitation to interfere in your decision-making. There are folks in the United States who have been threatened, shot, bombed and killed by zealots who say they are pro-life, convinced that they are doing “God’s work”. These are “unjust killings” of innocent persons. No human being has the capacity or the authority to judge or condemn anyone engaged in the turmoil of abortion. We each make choices for ourselves, do our best to guide our children, stay in conscious contact with God, and lead with humility. The issue of abortion in the U.S. will never be agreed-upon by the polarized factions. So choose for yourself. That’s what pro-choice is.

marietta

Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being…in fact, the most innocent and vulnerable of human beings. If that’s not unjust than I don’t know what is. Bringing up rare examples of fanatics who blow up abortion centers is the use of smoke and mirrors to put forth an illogical argument. No one said it would ever be easy during certain situations such as unwanted pregnancies or disabled fetuses, etc. but the bottom line is that despite those challenges it is still always wrong to kill that innocent human being.

 

[Riley259]

Just because I wouldn’t choose abortion myself does not mean that others will not choose abortion. I personally think it should be something that is left up to the individual’s conscience.

That would be leaving it up to an uninformed conscience.

 

[marietta]

mapleoak:
Group conscience evolves from opinions, beliefs, tenets shared by groups of people (i.e., Catholics, Jews, agnostics, etc.) who choose to band together and promote their agenda(e), enjoying some comfort in joint endorsement of these ideas and, as I have observed, sometimes growing contemptuous of those who do not share their views. I have seen group conscience successfully applied for the betterment of the group, and I’ve seen it circle the wagons, close ranks, become rigid and inhibit the growth of the group and its potential to learn through the open sharing of ideas.

I do not define my spiritual life by scripture, or by “It’s right there in the Bible”, or by “Because God said so!” My journey has been nothing but back roads to God, and I’m blessed to have a Higher Power who has brought me back to Him after a maelstrom of dangerous living. I don’t believe in certainty when it comes to formation of afterlife beliefs. We can hope and pray, but the certainty of heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, is the thing that aggravates me.

I’m not sure I understand the concept of insuring one’s conscience. I’ve formed my ideas of right and wrong through living, not through memorizing Baltimore Catechism. My parents were devout Catholics who did everything within their power to raise four children as good, Mass-attending, confession-going, rosary-saying Catholics. Three out of the four children still attend Mass. I am not one of them.

I want to give “credit” to the male of the species here: it is not always the mothers who do not want their pregnancies to continue. There are many men who coerce their partners to terminate their pregnancies for a variety of reasons. Women who seek abortions are counseled privately, without their partners in the room, to be certain that they are not being coerced but, rather, that they have come to this decision on their own.

I told Holly3278 that she folded too soon because, in the face of “rational discussion”, she backed away from her stance, and her right to ask questions, as if completely recoiling and wanting to attract no further attention to herself. The post read as if she were roadkill decended upon by the vultures of “dialog”. I would have been pleased to see her step up and challenge posters rather than shrink away, claiming “. . . maybe I am wrong . . .” Christian orthodoxy demands an anti-abortion stance; if she is questioning this facet of her religion, her struggle may be larger than one of just anti-abortion/pro-choice.

This world does not provide everyone with a sound, healthy conscience nor the means with which to cultivate one. Perhaps there are no excuses for abhorrent behaviors but there certainly are explanations.

After holding a large mass of tissue and blood clots in my very own hands after it was expelled from my uterus at 10 weeks, I can tell you I examined it as closely as Gil Grissom would: it bore absolutely no resemblance to a human being. When does a human being become a human being? You believe it is at conception. I do not. Here, my experience tells me something different than your experience tells you. This is why the reason for abortion offends me, but the procedure does not.

marietta