Chrismation

[rciadan]

Blessings!
My 12 yr old daughter (already baptised and having received hr first Holy Communion) is receiving Chrismation tomorrow at our new parish, a Byzantine Catholic parish in Ft Pierce, Florida! Glory be to God, she is very excited and likes the idea of “being Byzantine” before I am! I and my wife must wait a couple of years before we can take the next step…

 

[Cecil_Corn]

Congratulations! Is that Sts. Cyril & Methodius? I was there 12 years ago when I visited Florida. Beautiful parish!

 

[rciadan]

Congratulations! Is that Sts. Cyril & Methodius? I was there 12 years ago when I visited Florida. Beautiful parish!

Yes, it is! We actually have 12 kids receiving Holy Mysteries! The parish is growing for all the right reasons. People are falling in love with the Divine Liturgy and Eastern thought and theology…

 

[Vico]

Blessings!
My 12 yr old daughter (already baptised and having received hr first Holy Communion) is receiving Chrismation tomorrow at our new parish, a Byzantine Catholic parish in Ft Pierce, Florida! Glory be to God, she is very excited and likes the idea of “being Byzantine” before I am! I and my wife must wait a couple of years before we can take the next step…

Glad to hear it!

But I do have one question: is she a Byzantine Catholic because of a change of ritual church (perhaps after conversion), or by parental canonical membership at her birth? I ask because normally (canon law) Chrismation is received at the time of baptism for Byzantine Catholic Church.

 

[5Loaves]

Glad to hear it!

But I do have one question: is she a Byzantine Catholic because of a change of ritual church (perhaps after conversion), or by parental canonical membership at her birth? I ask because normally (canon law) Chrismation is received at the time of baptism for Byzantine Catholic Church.

Regardless of age, having been baptized in the Latin Church one remains ascribed to the Latin Church until a formal request for change of Church made to the Bishops East and West is approved. Chrismation in a Church other than the Latin Church would not provide a canonical change of Church. The record in the Latin Church where the Baptism took place should reflect the Chrismation took place, but a change in Church would not be recorded unless, and until the formal request is made and approved either by the Bishop or in some cases by Rome.

 

[5Loaves]

Blessings!
My 12 yr old daughter (already baptised and having received hr first Holy Communion) is receiving Chrismation tomorrow at our new parish, a Byzantine Catholic parish in Ft Pierce, Florida! Glory be to God, she is very excited and likes the idea of “being Byzantine” before I am! I and my wife must wait a couple of years before we can take the next step…

Congratulations on your daughter’s Chrismation!
You are all equally “Byzantine” at this point.
Fr Sopoliga is awesome.

 

[rciadan]

Regardless of age, having been baptized in the Latin Church one remains ascribed to the Latin Church until a formal request for change of Church made to the Bishops East and West is approved. Chrismation in a Church other than the Latin Church would not provide a canonical change of Church. The record in the Latin Church where the Baptism took place should reflect the Chrismation took place, but a change in Church would not be recorded unless, and until the formal request is made and approved either by the Bishop or in some cases by Rome.

I understand all that, but, she still likes to say she is the first Byzantine…I think it is cute, and I am thrilled that at 12, she has come to the decision that she wants to be byzantine all by herself. She is not doing this because Mom and Dad are doing it: she is not just along for the ride…

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I understand all that, but, she still likes to say she is the first Byzantine…I think it is cute, and I am thrilled that at 12, she has come to the decision that she wants to be byzantine all by herself. She is not doing this because Mom and Dad are doing it: she is not just along for the ride…

This is a gift and a blessing that will surely keep her close to God her entire life.

We pray for her and your entire family on this joyous day!

Coincidentally we recently had a similar situation here in our parish, and received four siblings into the church on the same day - two via Chrismation and the newborn twin sisters via the full Rite of Christian Initiation. It was quite a Sunday morning!

 

[Vico]

Regardless of age, having been baptized in the Latin Church one remains ascribed to the Latin Church until a formal request for change of Church made to the Bishops East and West is approved. Chrismation in a Church other than the Latin Church would not provide a canonical change of Church. The record in the Latin Church where the Baptism took place should reflect the Chrismation took place, but a change in Church would not be recorded unless, and until the formal request is made and approved either by the Bishop or in some cases by Rome.

She already had baptism and first communion, and the parents are not Byzantine, so, being under age 14, I am not aware of any way for her to become Byzantine through Chrismation, and also the Chrismation would need to be with permission of the Latin Church.

For Latins:

CIC
Can. 111
§1 Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the Latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptized in the Latin Church: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.
§2 Any candidate for baptism who has completed the fourteenth year of age may freely choose to be baptized either in the Latin Church or in another autonomous ritual Church; in which case the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.
Can. 112
§1 After the reception of baptism, the following become members of another autonomous ritual Church:
1° those who have obtained permission from the Apostolic See;
2° a spouse who, on entering marriage or during its course, has declared that he or she is transferring to the autonomous ritual Church of the other spouse; on the dissolution of the marriage, however, that person may freely return to the latin Church;
3° the children of those mentioned in nn. 1 and 2 who have not completed their fourteenth year, and likewise in a mixed marriage the children of a catholic party who has lawfully transferred to another ritual Church; on completion of their fourteenth year, however, they may return to the latin Church.
§2 The practice, however long standing, of receiving the sacraments according to the rite of an autonomous ritual Church, does not bring with it membership of that Church.

 

[The_Idiot]

I think we also have to remember that according to the Latin Church all conversions to Catholicism from a Protestant Church in the Diaspora, no matter where that Reception takes place whether it be in a Latin Church or a Byzantine one ] results in that convert being ascribed to the Latin Church.

I’m sure that Vico can post the relevant Canons

 

[lssanjose]

I understand all that, but, she still likes to say she is the first Byzantine…I think it is cute, and I am thrilled that at 12, she has come to the decision that she wants to be byzantine all by herself. She is not doing this because Mom and Dad are doing it: she is not just along for the ride…

As an old Lutheran housemate of mine said to me, “you go to church, not because you have to, but because you want to.” I think that’s awesome she’s exhibiting this kind of enthusiasm. I think something like it is lost, in this day and age.

 

[5Loaves]

I think we also have to remember that according to the Latin Church all conversions to Catholicism from a Protestant Church in the Diaspora, no matter where that Reception takes place whether it be in a Latin Church or a Byzantine one ] results in that convert being ascribed to the Latin Church.

I’m sure that Vico can post the relevant Canons

Fr. George Gallaro covered that in Catherine Alexander’s Your Word From The Wise blog.

 

[lssanjose]

Fr. George Gallaro covered that in Catherine Alexander’s Your Word From The Wise blog.

I came across her blog, a little too late. It’s sad to see it discontinued. I really enjoyed the content she provided.

Getting back on track, something like what’s being described, here of late, wouldn’t occur if one were to go into Orthodoxy, meaning what rite one was to come from, it would simply be a parish matter, then taken to the main diocese. It’s just interesting, in my mind.

 

[5Loaves]

I understand all that, but, she still likes to say she is the first Byzantine…I think it is cute, and I am thrilled that at 12, she has come to the decision that she wants to be byzantine all by herself. She is not doing this because Mom and Dad are doing it: she is not just along for the ride…

The post you quote from me wasn’t to you. As I said in my “congratulations” post to you, Fr Sopoliga is awesome. I’m sure all was made clear to everyone concerned in your case.

Unfortunately, while Fr Sopoliga is awesome there are priests who Chrismate Catholics, and Protestants and leave them thinking they have become Eastern Catholics of the Church where the Chrismation happened. I’m sure I’m not the only one here who has come across that exact situation. Sadly, instead of guiding the people to seek an actual canonical change of Church they leave the faithful who are in their care in the dark as to their actual status.From my perspective it isn’t pastoral to function that way. It’s kind of deceptive.

One can say it really only matters when something like marriage or ordination comes along and suddenly the person discovers they actually ascribed in the Latin Church. On the other hand if they knew their actual status they might well make the formal request for the change in ascription. At least then it would be their choice.

 

[Vico]

…

Getting back on track, something like what’s being described, here of late, wouldn’t occur if one were to go into Orthodoxy, meaning what rite one was to come from, it would simply be a parish matter, then taken to the main diocese. It’s just interesting, in my mind.

If the person is validly baptised in a Christian church of any denomination, other than the Orthodox (Eastern, Oriental, or Assyrian) then they go to the Latin Church.

 

[5Loaves]

Getting back on track, something like what’s being described, here of late, wouldn’t occur if one were to go into Orthodoxy, meaning what rite one was to come from, it would simply be a parish matter, then taken to the main diocese. It’s just interesting, in my mind.

Whether a Catholic gets Baptized again when coming into Holy Orthodoxy varies. Some Churches do, some only Chrismate. Is that true also for Protestants coming into Orthodoxy- are there times when a Protestant is received by Chrismation alone?

(I wish Catherine Alexander would do more of those fabulous Youtube interviews she did with the HRM monks. Some day…)

 

[lssanjose]

It is based upon the ritual Church one was enrolled in at baptism.

Technically, this is correct. Based on what my friend was explaining, to me, regarding OCA, ROCOR, etc., It doesn’t appear there’s a western rite he could have gone to. Also, from what I’ve listened to, on Ancient Faith Radio, many Protestants turned to Eastern Orthodoxy. In my friend’s case, he was baptized Evangelical, but was then reconfirmed as Russian Orthodox.

 

[rciadan]

The post you quote from me wasn’t to you. As I said in my “congratulations” post to you, Fr Sopoliga is awesome. I’m sure all was made clear to everyone concerned in your case.

Unfortunately, while Fr Sopoliga is awesome there are priests who Chrismate Catholics, and Protestants and leave them thinking they have become Eastern Catholics of the Church where the Chrismation happened. I’m sure I’m not the only one here who has come across that exact situation. Sadly, instead of guiding the people to seek an actual canonical change of Church they leave the faithful who are in their care in the dark as to their actual status.From my perspective it isn’t pastoral to function that way. It’s kind of deceptive.

One can say it really only matters when something like marriage or ordination comes along and suddenly the person discovers they actually ascribed in the Latin Church. On the other hand if they knew their actual status they might well make the formal request for the change in ascription. At least then it would be their choice.

This is not the case. We are fully aware and as I stated in my OP, we must wait for a period and then we can take the next step toward formally changing Rites. I still think it is awesome that my 12 yr old has embraced the Byzantine rite: that* she* chose to be chrismated in this rite: that she feels at home: that she has taken the time and effort to understand the similarities and differences between the two, Latin and Byzantine. This is not about the legalistic issues of formalities but about the issues of a love for and desire to be part of…exhibited by a 12 yr old…
The formalities will follow, in time

 

[lssanjose]

This is not the case. We are fully aware and as I stated in my OP, we must wait for a period and then we can take the next step toward formally changing Rites. I still think it is awesome that my 12 yr old has embraced the Byzantine rite: that* she* chose to be chrismated in this rite: that she feels at home: that she has taken the time and effort to understand the similarities and differences between the two, Latin and Byzantine. This is not about the legalistic issues of formalities but about the issues of a love for and desire to be part of…exhibited by a 12 yr old…
The formalities will follow, in time

Once again, congrats! May God grant you, her, and the rest of your family, many years!

 

[Vico]

I think we also have to remember that according to the Latin Church all conversions to Catholicism from a Protestant Church in the Diaspora, no matter where that Reception takes place whether it be in a Latin Church or a Byzantine one ] results in that convert being ascribed to the Latin Church.

I’m sure that Vico can post the relevant Canons

One may have to petition to transfer, regardless of where received, if a different rite is desired from the one via CCEO canon 35. (See: Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC, Canon Law Society of America, pp. 255-258) When the CCEO code was written it was proposed to add a clause for free selection of the Church sui iuris, but this proposal was not added.

According to canon law those first baptized Orthodox are ascribed as members of the eastern Catholic Church closest to their ritual Orthodox Church, even if received into the Catholic Church at a Latin Church by Latin clergy.

Some from the book (pp. 255-258) are:

Eastern:
Orthodox Church of America → Ruthenian or Ukrainian or Russian Catholic
American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox → Ruthenian or Slovak Catholic
Serbian Orthodox → Krizevci Catholic
Macedonian Orthodox → Macedonian Catholic
Greek Speaking Eastern Orthodox → Hellenic Greek Catholic
Arabic Speaking Eastern Orthodox → Melkite Greek Catholic
Romanian Orthodox → Romanian Catholic
Russian Orthodox → Russian Catholic
Belarussian Orthodox → Belarussian Catholic
Ukrainian Orthodox → Ukrainian Catholic
Bulgarian Orthodox → Bulganian Catholic
Hungarian Orthodox → Hungarian Catholic
Albanian Orthodox → Albanian Catholic

Oriental:
Armenian Orthodox–> Armenian Catholic
Coptic Orthodox → Coptic Catholic
Ethiopian Orthodox → Ethiopian Catholic
Syrian Orthodox → Syrian Catholic
Indian Orthodox → Syro-Malankara Catholic
Mar Thoma Syrian → Syro-Malankara Catholic
Orthodox Syrian (Jacobite) → Syro-Malankara Catholic
Malabar Independent Syrian Church (Thozhiyoor) → Syro-Malankara Catholic
Church of South India, St. Thomas → Syro-Malankara Catholic

Assyrian:
Assyrian Orthodox → Chaldean Catholic
Syrian Malabarese → Syro-Malabar Catholic
Syro-Chaldean → Syro-Malabar Catholic

Latin:
Church of South India, not St. Thomas → Latin Catholic
Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist, and their derivatives. → Latin Catholic