Christ as our Sin-Bearer is not the RCC gospel.

[Robert_in_SD]

If the Persons of the One God can not be separated in any way, then I could ask you why Jesus said that He must go to the Father at the end of His ministry.

I’m not sure how it is that Jesus can be physically separated from God the Father who transcends time and space? Where - physically - could Jesus go to be separated from His Father. Similarly, just because the Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature (in addition to his own divine nature) that does not lead to the conclusion that he was somehow separated from the godhead. I think that most christian theologians would conclude that Jesus’s comment about going to be with His Father in Heaven did not imply a presently existing separation from the Father. Jesus also told his followers that where He is, there also is the Father. (

brkn1:

Jesus assuming a human form must have made this sort of separation possible.

Jesus did not “assume a human form.” The Second Person of the Trinity took on a second nature in addiiton to His divine nature and was born of the Virgin Mary. The incarnation was not the reduction of Divinity to Humanity. It was the addition of human nature to divine nature. Hence, the Incarnation does not imply a separation of God, it implies a closer unification of God and humanity.

brkn1:

You could say that both the Father and the Holy Spirit were nailed to the cross also, if you carry your claim of dis-allowed separation to its ultimate conclusion.

No. That’s not what I’m suggesting, nor is it a logical conclusion of what I stated. The divine nature is Three Persons in One. That means only the Second Person -Christ was nailed to the cross. Neither the Holy Spirit nor the Father shared in the Incarnation because of their distinct Personhood. But Christ (as the Second Person of the Trinity), who had a human nature, was also God.

Your notion of vicarious penal substitution is still wrong, and you have not responded to the bulk of what I have posted. That’s fine, if you feel called to continue to believe what you do. As others have noted, I think what is most important is that we all believe Christ atoned for our sins on the cross. If you want to believe that he atoned by suffering God’s wrath by vicariously receiving our punishment for our sins, that’s not going to hinder your salvation. But IMHO I think it limits you from fully understanding all that happened on Calvary.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Philthy]

Unfortunately in dialogues with Roman Catholics when Protestants say that one is Justified by Faith Alone the Roman side thinks that for the Protestant thats all there is to being Saved.

That is simply because “alone” implies apart from anything else. It is a poor term - faith alone - and Protestants stick with it and expect others to somehow understand that it is “faith alone” that saves you, but not a faith that “is alone”. And ultimately when pressed about the “necessity” of the “not a faith that is alone” there is much ambiguity and obfuscation. Although salvation can come by faith alone, inheriting the kingdom of God - aka “going to Heaven” is not by faith “alone”.

 

[brkn1]

Similarly, just because the Second Person of the Trinity took on a human nature (in addition to his own divine nature) that does not lead to the conclusion that he was somehow separated from the godhead. I think that most christian theologians would conclude that Jesus’s comment about going to be with His Father in Heaven did not imply a presently existing separation from the Father. Jesus also told his followers that where He is, there also is the Father. The Second Person of the Trinity took on a second nature in addiiton to His divine nature and was born of the Virgin Mary. The incarnation was not the reduction of Divinity to Humanity. It was the addition of human nature to divine nature. Hence, the Incarnation does not imply a separation of God, it implies a closer unification of God and humanity.

No. That’s not what I’m suggesting, nor is it a logical conclusion of what I stated. The divine nature is Three Persons in One. That means only the Second Person -Christ was nailed to the cross. Neither the Holy Spirit nor the Father shared in the Incarnation because of their distinct Personhood. But Christ (as the Second Person of the Trinity), who had a human nature, was also God.

I’m sure we agree that Jesus is both Perfect God and Perfect Man. These two natures of the one Person of Jesus are not mingled, but both of Jesus’ natures exist in the one Person of Jesus Christ.

Jesus could not be said to have taken on the same human nature as we have, if it were not also possible for His human nature to be separated from God by having any sin upon it or if He was bearing sin for others. It could not also honestly be said that He was tempted as we are, if failure and its resulting sin would not separate Jesus from His Father. We can be separated from God by our sin as a part of our human nature.
Once Jesus took our sin in His body, He was subject to separation from the Father, as we are by our own sin. To say otherwise is to deny that Jesus has the same human nature that we have.

 

[Philthy]

brkn1:

The exact form that the sin bearing takes is what makes it a true sin-bearing.

Perhaps, but you forgot to included that when you started the post, and in doing so you have created a falsehood. You said that Christ as sin-bearer is not part of the RCC gospel. In reality, Christ as sin bearer is part of the RCC gospel - its simply the exact nature of that sin bearing which is in question. Perhaps this differentiation remains to difficult for you to grasp, but the fact remains that your original allegation is a falsehood.

Your Catechism tries to get around what Jesus as a true Sin-Bearer has to do, according to the Gospel. Jesus is clearly stated as having taken the sin of the world “in His own body on the tree” (1Peter2:24). There has to be a reasonable explanation why He did so, but your Catechism avoids it. It seems more interested in redefining what sin-bearing is.

The Catechism is not a person. It does not have interests. Could it be that the discussion in the Catechism is over your head? Could it be that some have a slightly different perspective on the exact offering that Christ made to the Father?

The “603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if He Himself had sinned.” claim of your Catechism, proves to me that your church does not believe in the true meaning of Jesus being a Sin-Bearer according to the Scripture.

Im sure what you mean to say is that it proves that the view put forth in the Catechism is different than your own. You, of course, are fallible and have a fallible knowledge of what the “true meaning” of Jesus as the sin-bearer is, right? I mean, you are special but are you claiming to have the gift of infallibility to make such a proclamation?

 

[Philthy]

Because in one sense it can rightly be said that Christ’s sacrifice was the substitute for our punishment. But that’s not the same thing as saying that Christ was vicariously punished by God in our place. He offered all of Himself (body, blood, soul and divinity) as a sacrifice to atone for us - an infinite offering of love and mercy for finite humanity and its broken nature.

The Father never turned His back on the Son, and a doctrine that states such a thing raises some rather ugly implications, which I’ve already touched upon.

Peace,
-Robert

Hi Robert!

Thanks for all your great posts on the thread. Unfortunately due to ignorance of the exact definition of “vicariously” I remain confused. I understand “substitute” pretty well. Vicarious substitute is a little confusing. Maybe I should look it up in a dictionary.

 

[Philthy]

It is absolutely clear that the Church teaches – and has always taught – that Jesus bore our sins in His Body.

How outrageous! What do you think this is - a genuine search for the truth? Please get your facts straight: Christ as our Sin-Bearer is not the RCC gospel. If it were part of the gospel of the CC then the CC might actually be exactly what it claims to be: the Church Christ founded upon the Apostles. And that cant be true - that would require too much personal sacrifice for some.

 

[Cinette]

The RCC does not believe that Jesus Christ took upon Himself our sins on the Cross as the Sin-Bearer.
The RCC does not believe that Christ paid the penalty for those sins He bore upon Himself as the Substitute for us, so that He could redeem us.

The Scripture that I will use to define Jesus Christ as the Sin-Bearer can be found in (1 Peter 2:24-25):
“Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

Please explain exactly how you understand (1 Peter 2:24-25), if you do not accept that Jesus Christ is our Sin-Bearer Redeemer?

I believe that you must believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ as our Substitute Sin-Bearer Redeemer, if you are to be saved. There is no other way to salvation.

*Are you a spokesperson for the Catholic Church?

You should stick to what you know and not what you don’t know.

You probably don’t know what you don’t know!!!

"“For there are many things in scripture that are hard to understand which ignorant and unstable people distort as they do the other scriptures to their destruction” 2 Peter 3:16

*

 

[Cinette]

So true. In some ways the JWs are the same as the Roman Church. They say "oh yes we believe the Bible as the infallible Word of God but it can only be understood when it is read in the light of the Teachings (Traditions) of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and its President ( the Catholic Church’s Magisterium and Pope).

Instead of coming onto CAF to seek answers - to seek truth - you have come for what purpose?

To make a valuable contribution to the debates?

Do you have love in your heart?

 

[Zooey]

So far, I have discovered that OP does not understand: 1. The Trinity. 2. The Incarnation. 3. The meaning of “sacrifice”. 4. The nature of the Jewish sacrificial system. 5.The nature of God the Father. and, 6.The actual beliefs & teaching of the Catholic Church. Now, OP is free to disagree with said teachings. (She said, from the Methodist amen corner). But, not to re-invent them. That’s cheating, & I will continue to howl about said cheating. (My 2 cents).

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Gabriel of 12;

I have heard many different misunderstood Catholic belief’s from non catholics and Protestants alike, but yours today takes the cake.

What makes you think Catholics dont believe Jesus took upon himself our humanity and nailed our sins to the Cross?

That scripture you quoted here, The Catholic Church canonized it to be inspired of God. Why would you think Catholics believe contrary to a letter she placed in the New Testament bible?

You will find the Proclamation of Jesus Death until he comes in every Catholic Church, just by the hanging Crucifix itself speaks volumes against your false accusation.

In our liturgy of the Mass, we recite the thrice Holy, along with the “lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” from antiquity.

Have you ever attended a Roman Catholic Church Mass? I would recommend that you do, and take your bible with you, because from the procession to the ending the Word of God comes to life and presents himself truly body and blood to all those God has called unto himself.

I have to pause here, less I record a book here, refuting your false claim. I will close with this: IF the Catholic church had not given you the Gospels, in what would you lay your claim of truth, if you did not have the Gospels? for the Catholic church came before the New Testament was put together by the Catholic church herself.

Peace be with you

WE would all be Jews and we would all have a book, and they broke bread before Christ came on earth.Most of the things the catholics have have been taken from the Jews and others. IT all comes from the Romans, where the Vatican comes from. You people have been told alot of things that cannot be proven, who can reprove if you have everything in your posession? Even dead body’s that the Romans killed ( THE SAINTS). When the church split they sure wern’t going to take all those dead saints with them they are lucky to get out with their lives. Peace to you to!

 

[brkn1]

Does it matter? Scripture teaches us that Jesus was in fact an offering to the Father:

Hebrews 9:13-14.

Hebrews 7:26-27.

Hebrews 10:12.

This post seems to prove the title that I used about Christ not being considered by your church to have been actually bearing our sins in His body as He was offered to the Father. Other posts seem to say otherwise. Could someone be real clear and definite about your church’s position.
I understand and agree with the part about Jesus being innocent of committing any sin Himself.
To just say that Jesus was an offering to the Father does not cut it for me.
Thanks.

 

[Godfollower]

This post seems to prove the title that I used about Christ not being considered by your church to have been actually bearing our sins in His body as He was offered to the Father. Other posts seem to say otherwise. Could someone be real clear and definite about your church’s position.
I understand and agree with the part about Jesus being innocent of committing any sin Himself.
To just say that Jesus was an offering to the Father does not cut it for me.
Thanks.

I don’t understand your question. You asked whether the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins in His Body; I said, yes, it does, and I pointed you to writings that say so. We have repeatedly shown you that the Catechism of the Catholic Church – a summary of the Church’s teachings – shows that the Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins.

I thought that meant that we were in agreement.

What are you asking now?

 

[Cinette]

I don’t understand your question. You asked whether the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins in His Body; I said, yes, it does, and I pointed you to writings that say so. We have repeatedly shown you that the Catechism of the Catholic Church – a summary of the Church’s teachings – shows that the Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins.

I thought that meant that we were in agreement.

What are you asking now?

It is obvious that brkn1 believes what he wants to believe.

You can show him the Catechism you can quote him any number of Catholic theoloogians, he will continue to babble his lies and maintain his position. He knows best what Catholics believe :bigyikes: and that is that!

Can’t argue with someone of that calibre! Let him talk to himself! He is not interested in truth obviously

 

[Philthy]

You probably don’t know what you don’t know!!!
*

Ancient Chinese Proverb:

Men are of 4 types:

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not - he is a fool, shun him

He who knows not and knows that he knows not - he is a child, teach him

He who knows and knows not that he knows - he is asleep, awaken him

He who knows and knows that he knows - he is a king, follow him

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I will NEVER agree with Rome’s false pagan derived dogma of Purgatory and Indulgences to “earn” “merit” to stay out of some man fabricated concept. How God cleans me up just before entering Heaven has not been revealed to me and His Written Word is silent about the “how”, I will not “go beyond that which is written”, that is for God to do as He sees fit and I just trust Him by Faith that all things work out for those that love and trust in Jesus as Saviour.

Gabriel of 12;

Here is God’s written Word on what takes place in purgatory supported by the Oral Apostolic Tradition, what is called “Purgatory” today. Purgatory is cleansing before entering heaven, those in Purgatory are entering heaven.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

The Roman Catholic Church is just the messenger, your protest is not against the Catholic church but God.

1Corinthians 3:12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – 13: each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15: If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer [zēmioō Greek, will be punished] loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here is purgatory being introduced from the Old Testament.Please see 2Maccabees 12:40-46
Malachi 3…"Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. 2: But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? **"For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; 3: he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.**Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

**nothing unclean shall enter it, **nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life [Rev 21:27]

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

WE would all be Jews and we would all have a book, and they broke bread before Christ came on earth.Most of the things the catholics have have been taken from the Jews and others. IT all comes from the Romans, where the Vatican comes from. You people have been told alot of things that cannot be proven, who can reprove if you have everything in your posession? Even dead body’s that the Romans killed ( THE SAINTS). When the church split they sure wern’t going to take all those dead saints with them they are lucky to get out with their lives. Peace to you to!

Gabriel of 12;

Peace be with you nancy; Your accusations are too vague, can you be more specific as to the point you wish to portray here?

I dont know if you have been informed correctly, but the Saints that Pagan Rome killed were all Catholic Believers. The Catholic church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ, this is biblical and Apostolic Sacred Tradition from the Apostles themselves, Catholics dont make a claim to possess everything, She professes Jesus Christ crucified which is “All things” in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is just the messenger commissioned by Jesus Christ himself.

I dont know what Catholics “Took” from the Jews and others? care to explain?

 

[Cinette]

Ancient Chinese Proverb:

Men are of 4 types:

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not - he is a fool, shun him

He who knows not and knows that he knows not - he is a child, teach him

He who knows and knows not that he knows - he is asleep, awaken him

He who knows and knows that he knows - he is a king, follow him

Words of wisdom!

 

[brkn1]

I don’t understand your question. You asked whether the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins in His Body; I said, yes, it does, and I pointed you to writings that say so. We have repeatedly shown you that the Catechism of the Catholic Church – a summary of the Church’s teachings – shows that the Church teaches that Jesus bore our sins.

I thought that meant that we were in agreement.

What are you asking now?

After reading your church’s Catechism on this subject many times, it is apparent that your church does not believe that our sin was placed upon Jesus as part of the one and only Sacrifice for our sins on the Cross.
Your Catechism uses the scriptural terms “He shall bear their iniquities”, but it always redefines what is meant by that as meaning something other than actually bearing our sin literally. Christ does not have our sin placed upon Him as our Substitute, according to your church.
Sin Bearer, by my understanding of Scripture, means that Jesus Christ actually took our sins upon Himself, even though He was innocent of any sin on His part. Jesus Christ then suffered the penalty of our sin laid upon Him during the one Sacrifice of the Cross. This suffering was at the hand of both man and His Father, Who had to punish Jesus, in our deserved place, if Jesus was to pay the penalty for our sin as our Redeemer. Jesus substituted Himself for us to pay the penalty God’s Holiness and Justice required. That is the Gospel according to Scripture. (Isaiah 53) makes sense according to this explanation of Christ as our Sin-Bearer.
It really matters about how you understand what Jesus did for you.

I don’t see any point in going further on the subject, since it the thread seems to have been taken over by those who prefer to insult than to really contribute to understanding the subject.
I want to thank those who did otherwise.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Gabriel of 12;

Peace be with you nancy; Your accusations are too vague, can you be more specific as to the point you wish to portray here?

I dont know if you have been informed correctly, but the Saints that Pagan Rome killed were all Catholic Believers. The Catholic church is the mystical body of Jesus Christ, this is biblical and Apostolic Sacred Tradition from the Apostles themselves, Catholics dont make a claim to possess everything, She professes Jesus Christ crucified which is “All things” in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is just the messenger commissioned by Jesus Christ himself.

I dont know what Catholics “Took” from the Jews and others? care to explain?

HI Gabriel, Jesus comissioned All his decipals to go out and preach and teach to All the world his message, of love, forgiveness of sins, Baptism, confession one to another,Holy communion in rememberence of Him, but All he ever taught He taught in Love and that we were to Love are brother and sisters in Christ, Love is the Key’s to Heaven, for God is Love. you are Loved Nancy

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It is obvious that brkn1 believes what he wants to believe.

You can show him the Catechism you can quote him any number of Catholic theoloogians, he will continue to babble his lies and maintain his position. He knows best what Catholics believe :bigyikes: and that is that!

Can’t argue with someone of that calibre! Let him talk to himself! He is not interested in truth obviously

After reading your church’s Catechism on this subject many times, it is apparent that your church does not believe that our sin was placed upon Jesus as part of the one and only Sacrifice for our sins on the Cross.
Your Catechism uses the scriptural terms “He shall bear their iniquities”, but it always redefines what is meant by that as meaning something other than actually bearing our sin literally. Christ does not have our sin placed upon Him as our Substitute, according to your church.
Sin Bearer, by my understanding of Scripture, means that Jesus Christ actually took our sins upon Himself, even though He was innocent of any sin on His part. Jesus Christ then suffered the penalty of our sin laid upon Him during the one Sacrifice of the Cross. This suffering was at the hand of both man and His Father, Who had to punish Jesus, in our deserved place, if Jesus was to pay the penalty for our sin as our Redeemer. Jesus substituted Himself for us to pay the penalty God’s Holiness and Justice required. That is the Gospel according to Scripture. (Isaiah 53) makes sense according to this explanation of Christ as our Sin-Bearer.
It really matters about how you understand what Jesus did for you.

I don’t see any point in going further on the subject, since it the thread seems to have been taken over by those who prefer to insult than to really contribute to understanding the subject.
I want to thank those who did otherwise.

Cinette, I included brkn1’s last post in this reply. It is obvious at least to me, that brkn1 really has your best interest in mind and that he really wants to understand and wants you to understand the truth as set forth in scripture and for you to write this post, which has nothing to do with the OP, and is designed for no other reason but to malign and humiliate is reprehensable and repugnant in my estimation. I beleive it departs from the purpose of this forum and is certainly counter to the teachings of Jesus and I think you should be ashamed of yourself.

brkn1, I can understand your reason for quitting this thread, However I would ask that you give it one last chance, if for no other reason than Cinette and everyone subscribing to this thread needs your insightful responses. Lets pray that they and everyone open themselves to the working of God’s Holy Spirit