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I think I must’ve bored a lot of OPs rigid saying that it’s totally & in every respect “of grace”. Apart from anything else, I don’t see that it can be anything ***but ***totally gratuitous. Which is why “orthodoxism”, even if it is orthodoxy about grace, is a danger. As for the danger of preaching “another Christ” - granted, but orthodoxy will not save us from loss of orthodoxy. Nothing we can do will do that, but God only.
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marymol
Guest
Could another term that needs more clarification in our hearts be about ‘God’s wrath’ or even His justice .
What might clarify things better could be the parable of the prodigal son.
The father accepted the son without any terms yet those whom the son had wronged had claims .
The father could have already paid off in full all the debtors .
A truly loving son then would have chosen to do what he can /ought to - to do his share in gratitude , to help to bring to terms even others alienated from the father and himself , to make amends for the sake of his own dignity and to prevent future temptations .
In our own case , often it is the powers of evil ,the accusing agents , who have those claims and is it not the same that get called as ’ the wrath of God ’ since they too as creatures are subject to God and hence mercifully we still have access to God’s mercy and power to get rid off them and their claims . with the power of love and trust that our Lord has obtained for us throug His own Passion.
The surpassing merit of the Infinite Love and the power that flows from it all , there for us to claim as ours when we choose to become His children and even plead same on behalf of those who need same yet cannot / would not and our Father giving us the ring and sandal of true children and heirs , to join The Son !
The term salvation may be as deep and vast as the whole relationship of Father -son , Creator- creature and not to be minimalised as some one time debt redumption ticket !
It is The Father alone who has the right and just claim to have as as His children and Salvation history is about the extent to which that Father is willing to go to have that just claim !
Peace !
What might clarify things better could be the parable of the prodigal son.
The father accepted the son without any terms yet those whom the son had wronged had claims .
The father could have already paid off in full all the debtors .
A truly loving son then would have chosen to do what he can /ought to - to do his share in gratitude , to help to bring to terms even others alienated from the father and himself , to make amends for the sake of his own dignity and to prevent future temptations .
In our own case , often it is the powers of evil ,the accusing agents , who have those claims and is it not the same that get called as ’ the wrath of God ’ since they too as creatures are subject to God and hence mercifully we still have access to God’s mercy and power to get rid off them and their claims . with the power of love and trust that our Lord has obtained for us throug His own Passion.
The surpassing merit of the Infinite Love and the power that flows from it all , there for us to claim as ours when we choose to become His children and even plead same on behalf of those who need same yet cannot / would not and our Father giving us the ring and sandal of true children and heirs , to join The Son !
The term salvation may be as deep and vast as the whole relationship of Father -son , Creator- creature and not to be minimalised as some one time debt redumption ticket !
It is The Father alone who has the right and just claim to have as as His children and Salvation history is about the extent to which that Father is willing to go to have that just claim !
Peace !
M
marymol
Guest
P.S - the last sentence above is to read about The Father’s just claim ’ for us , as His children ’ and also that The Church too believes how the merits of The Passion are more than sufficient to atone for all claims the enemy has on us ;yet , once we have accepted in trust what our Lord has done for us and then willfully turn back to become the children of the enemy again by choosing to trust in its ways , we know which way we are headed .
Mother Church knows that as children we too develop that trust slowly , through many falls and returns and hence ever patient with us, sustaining us through the Sacraments and ever reminding us through the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass the price of our Redemption so that we would remain in that relationship for our own sake !
Hope this would help to clarify the fallacy of the OSAS error that gets much discussed on these forums .
Peace !
Mother Church knows that as children we too develop that trust slowly , through many falls and returns and hence ever patient with us, sustaining us through the Sacraments and ever reminding us through the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass the price of our Redemption so that we would remain in that relationship for our own sake !
Hope this would help to clarify the fallacy of the OSAS error that gets much discussed on these forums .
Peace !
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Gamera
Guest
Brkn1, different Christians have different views of substitutionary atonement. Catholics believe that Jesus died as a perfect sacrifice for our sins, a sacrifice which none of us could make, and by which we can be restored to God’s grace. We don’t share the view held by some evangelicals that God needed to vent his wrath for humanity’s sins on someone and Jesus volunteered.
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brkn1
Guest
I agree that we don’t share the same view on what happened on the Cross.
I also understand more than some here might think about what the RCC believes happened.
What happened on the Cross is the most essential part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That is why it is important to make clear what really happened along with the how and why. A faith in the wrong gospel will not save.
We seem to all agree that Jesus was our Sin-Bearer on the Cross.
The natural question that comes out of that understanding is: “Why did Jesus have to bear our sin on the Cross?”
That sin, itself, could not be punished by God, so there has to be another reason for Jesus to be the Sin-Bearer.
If Jesus, as our Sin-Bearer, was not being punished in our deserved place for those sins, then there is really no reason (outside of some vague symbolism) for Jesus to bear anyone’s sin.
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manualman
Guest
Actually, there is.
Jesus CHOSE to take the ultimate consequence for all our collective sins on the cross because he loves us. It wasn’t to satisfy some sort of lawyerly hangup that God has deep inside. It was because WE needed that sacrifice in order to understand and accept that offer of His forgiveness. The message of Grace becomes genuine and the sin hardened human heart breaks wide open when we comprehend what happened at the cross. Jesus didn’t die on the cross because God needed him to in order to forgive us. WE needed him to die on the cross in order to make us open to receiving and believing.
How many times have you seen this in routine human life? Someone dislikes you and maybe even mistreats you. But suddenly that person becomes in trouble and you choose to help out of love. It (not always, but often) changes EVERYTHING. It’s an imperfect analogy, I realize. Humanity by our sin really did doom ourselves to hell. It was the consequences of all the sin that Jesus took on himself. It is a total gift of Grace that God offers to us in the SAME manner of love that he displayed on the cross. We must merely accept that gift.
But that acceptance is where folks like you get the REALLY wrong idea about catholics. We differ sharply on the impact of our daily lives on our souls. Your comments to date imply that you believe in a sort of ‘dung heap covered by perfect white snow’ model of the christian in heaven. Catholics believe this is a rather dreary vision of a heaven that really isn’t heaven at all. Catholics believe in a heaven in which God has not only forgiven us for our sins, but scrubbed out all the remaining inclinations towards sin. Do you ever say hurtful things to ones you love, tell a lie, swear, have lustful thoughts…? You won’t in heaven. That’s why it’s heaven. But between now and then lies a lot of sanctification. Grace still does the heavy lifting but you and I have to participate. That’s not works, it’s persevering until the end. And that’s a quote!
Jesus CHOSE to take the ultimate consequence for all our collective sins on the cross because he loves us. It wasn’t to satisfy some sort of lawyerly hangup that God has deep inside. It was because WE needed that sacrifice in order to understand and accept that offer of His forgiveness. The message of Grace becomes genuine and the sin hardened human heart breaks wide open when we comprehend what happened at the cross. Jesus didn’t die on the cross because God needed him to in order to forgive us. WE needed him to die on the cross in order to make us open to receiving and believing.
How many times have you seen this in routine human life? Someone dislikes you and maybe even mistreats you. But suddenly that person becomes in trouble and you choose to help out of love. It (not always, but often) changes EVERYTHING. It’s an imperfect analogy, I realize. Humanity by our sin really did doom ourselves to hell. It was the consequences of all the sin that Jesus took on himself. It is a total gift of Grace that God offers to us in the SAME manner of love that he displayed on the cross. We must merely accept that gift.
But that acceptance is where folks like you get the REALLY wrong idea about catholics. We differ sharply on the impact of our daily lives on our souls. Your comments to date imply that you believe in a sort of ‘dung heap covered by perfect white snow’ model of the christian in heaven. Catholics believe this is a rather dreary vision of a heaven that really isn’t heaven at all. Catholics believe in a heaven in which God has not only forgiven us for our sins, but scrubbed out all the remaining inclinations towards sin. Do you ever say hurtful things to ones you love, tell a lie, swear, have lustful thoughts…? You won’t in heaven. That’s why it’s heaven. But between now and then lies a lot of sanctification. Grace still does the heavy lifting but you and I have to participate. That’s not works, it’s persevering until the end. And that’s a quote!
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
Greetings brkn1, I sense from the posts here, you have a better understanding at least of the Catholic faith of Jesus who was without sin, took on humanity becoming fully human who is fully divine. This understanding of Jesus may help you understand the Gospel teachings of our redemption which the Catholic church proclaims. The “Once and for all Sacrifice” answers your question. Jesus bore the whole sins of all humanity from the past, present and future ages until he returns. Jesus redemptive act did not just count for the first century believers, but his redemptive act paid the penalty for sins, including original sin from Adam, those in the days of Noah until today and future generations.
Jesus bore our humanity and sacrificed it unto God, a sacrifice not made by human hands, to be perfect “ETERNAL” and only acceptable sacrifice God accepts as pleasing, to fulfill the old covenant that demanded a death from humanity for breaking the covenant with God beginning with Adam, the deluge (flood) etc. To enter God’s chosen into a New and Everlasting covenant in his blood.
Now to grasp these mysteries, one must account of what is a Covenant. The only way to fulfill a covenant with God, is that the Testator himself must die, inorder to make the covenant fulfilled, which is close to disappearing.
Now for an unbeliever to enter into this new covenant in Jesus body and blood sacrifice, he must be baptised (die to self), when a believer falls into mortal sin, he/she must confess his sins to God through the priesthood of Jesus on earth. In both of these cases the **blood **of Jesus Christ is claimed for our redemption which cleans us as white as wool.
The point I wish to make upon all what was said, is that Jesus in heaven is “Standing, a Lamb looking as though slain” eternally offering his perfect sacrifice to the Father for our sin removal from baptisms, and our confessed sins. We Catholics claim the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the World.
Now this redemptive act of God, did not cease in time; That is why Jesus commanded his apostles “To do this in rememberance of me”, making his eternal body and blood sacrifice present in time for all ages. That is why every Catholic takes his gift offering to God in Mass which is the body, blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist being offered up to God who accepts the sacrifice not made by human hands but again by the Word of God.
Because we Catholics are made into a holy priesthood with Jesus as our High Priest, and we are now co-heirs with him, we as members of the ONe body of Jesus Christ, must eat the lamb sacrifice to God which is Jesus himself in his body and blood. That is why Jesus states in John 6:47
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
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I am the bread of life.
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Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
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this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
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I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
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The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
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Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
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Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
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For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
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Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
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Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
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This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
To summarize the answer to the Why of your question; Because God So loves us… you recall John 3:16…
Peace be with you
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Gamera
Guest
Catholics agrree 100%. From the Council of Orange (529 A.D.):
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism-if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.
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PaulDupre
Guest
You are preaching to the choir. Everyone here agrees with you that Jesus, who is God Himself, and without sin, was punished in our stead so that we could be saved.
Now, why don’t you cut to the chase and tell us why you are so determined to argue with us about something we agree on. You obviously have a bug up your butt about something.
Is it just raw bigotry against Catholics?
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Philthy
Guest
This is the truth, but not quite the whole truth! Christ did better than to merely take on the sins of those who would believe. That would be like loving only those who love you - and Christ specifically said that even sinners do that! No, Christ took on the sins of the whole world. For God so loved the whole world that he sent his only Son, right? And what did John the Baptist say when he saw Christ? "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
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Philthy
Guest
brkn1;:
Your analysis here seems biased. Where exactly did you see "Jesus did not experience reprobation in our place??? It doesnt say that - you just invented it out of thin air. It says that he did not experience reprobation as if HE had sinned. He experience reprobation for OUR sins, that is why He didnt experience it as if HE had sinned.
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son."407
Its confusing that you would latch so firmly on to the first sentence and ignore all the rest which clearly indicates that God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son. My guess is that you have been misled by a non-Catholic regarding Catholicism. I’d be careful about trusting whoever that was in this respect.
But more to the point, now that you know that the CC clearly preaches Christ as our “sin bearer”, why not simply apologize for mistakenly bearing false witness and end the thread?
,
Your analysis here seems biased. Where exactly did you see "Jesus did not experience reprobation in our place??? It doesnt say that - you just invented it out of thin air. It says that he did not experience reprobation as if HE had sinned. He experience reprobation for OUR sins, that is why He didnt experience it as if HE had sinned.
This isnt quite right. Jesus needed to be punished exactly to the degree that WE needed to be punished - not “as if He Himself had sinned”. We were the ones that sinned, it was our sins that needed to be atoned for, and that is precisely what He did: he atoned for our sins. When the fog clears you will see that the Catechism is more accurate than your position. Here’s the entirety of the paragraph in question:
603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.405 But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"406 Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son."407
Its confusing that you would latch so firmly on to the first sentence and ignore all the rest which clearly indicates that God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be "reconciled to God by the death of his Son. My guess is that you have been misled by a non-Catholic regarding Catholicism. I’d be careful about trusting whoever that was in this respect.
But more to the point, now that you know that the CC clearly preaches Christ as our “sin bearer”, why not simply apologize for mistakenly bearing false witness and end the thread?
R
racing59
Guest
Why is Jesus Christ a perpetual sacrifice in Revelation 5:6 Here still has all his wounds, he is the Lamb as though he is slain. No longer bleeding,but still a perpetual sacrifice.So why still his wounds? Wouldn’t you say it is on going? Wouldn’t you then say there is a difference in Redemtion and Salvation.Christ redeem us, but salvation is a life long procees. Why did Paul say to run the good race?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gabriel of 12;
Excellent point racing; Paul also teaches to “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. Jesus perpetual sacrifice is eternally present in heaven, and made present in time on earth in the Mass, in the “Do this in rememberance of me” This “Once and for all” sacrifice paid the penalty of sin for all ages, that is why he remains with his wounds in his glorified body. Remember when Mary Magedelen wanted to cling to Jesus in the resurrection, he had to present his sacrifice to His Father, and our Father, to His God, and Our God.
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brkn1
Guest
If you truly believe that Jesus Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross as our Sin-Bearer payed the ransom price for our sins, then why does a believer in that “expiation for our sins” (604) still have to merit his own justification? The Sin-Bearer already paid the believer’s ransom price in full.
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brkn1
Guest
Jesus’ wounds are the proof of His one Sacrifice. Jesus died only once as Paul pointed out in Hebrews. Jesus said “It is finished.”
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Gamera
Guest
Yes, Jesus died only once. Catholics agree 100%. His suffering and death are “finished.” His sacrifice and priesthood remain perpetual, of course – otherwise we could’t avail ourselves of them now in 2009. His one sacrifice is everlasting.
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Gamera
Guest
There is no contradiction. It is because of Christ’s expiation for our sins, and only because of Christ’s expiation for our sins, that we can merit justification. We never could “earn” justification.
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reteeks21
Guest
I’m so glad you and the previous poster are pointing out these things. Protestants NEED to know these things so Christianity can move forward. And so guys like John McArthur can be made to shut-up.
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racing59
Guest
I agree Jesus died once on the cross for our sins. I still believe that is why the sacrifice is perpetual for my future sins. If it was totally finished, then why is there still evil in the world? If it is total finish would not evil be gone and all things would be under his feet? Is that not the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
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