Christ as our Sin-Bearer is not the RCC gospel.

  • Thread starter Thread starter brkn1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I knew that you would not be able to really answer my question about (2 Corinthians5:21).
Penal substitution would make that verse make sense, but your version requires the blanket statement “It is a mystery.” answer.
And I knew that you would insert the doctrine of penal substitution, because that is how you can make “sense” out of the great mystery of atonement. 😃

Many people are uncomfortable with mysteries, and spiritual truths that defy human understanding.
We are talking about Abraham having been willing to slay his own son, which you clearly stated that a father would not do to his innocent son.
Actually, I did not say that. I said that Abraham did not impute the sins of others to Isaac, and decide to slay him as punishement for those sins. God the Father was willing to sacrifice His only Son to atone for the sins of the world. Your formulation, though, of a vengeful God of wrath is not required for this to happen. Abraham was not vengeful and full of wrath.
You are now trying to divert your argument away from that subject. This is an example that clearly proves your argument as incorrect about a father not being willing to harm his innocent son.
God did not bring harm to His son. It is we who have fallen short of God’s glory that have brought this harm to Him.

God does not take vengence and wrath against Himself.
 
God did not bring harm to His son. It is we who have fallen short of God’s glory that have brought this harm to Him.

God does not take vengence and wrath against Himself.
Even by your understanding of what happened on the Cross, God the Father could definitely be said to have brought “harm to His Son” by putting Jesus in harm’s way.
The Father gave that “cup” to Jesus.
 
I’m sure we agree that Jesus is both Perfect God and Perfect Man. These two natures of the one Person of Jesus are not mingled, but both of Jesus’ natures exist in the one Person of Jesus Christ.
I’m not sure what you mean by “not mingled.” The Second Person of the Trinity has a divine nature and a human nature. But he is one Person.
40.png
brkn1:
Jesus could not be said to have taken on the same human nature as we have, if it were not also possible for His human nature to be separated from God by having any sin upon it or if He was bearing sin for others.
How is one’s “nature” separated from one’s Person? What you are saying is inconsistent with the Christian definition of personhood. Christ is one Person with two natures. His natures are part of His Personhood. I’m not sure how a “nature” can take on our sins. But God, as a Person, can “bear our sins” in the sacrificial sense.
40.png
brkn1:
It could not also honestly be said that He was tempted as we are, if failure and its resulting sin would not separate Jesus from His Father. We can be separated from God by our sin as a part of our human nature.
It can be said that the Evil one tried to tempt Him and was rebuked… and it can be said that Christ was like us (humans) in all things except sin. In that sense he was more perfectly human than we were, because sin exists as a result of our broken-ness.
40.png
brkn1:
Once Jesus took our sin in His body, He was subject to separation from the Father, as we are by our own sin. To say otherwise is to deny that Jesus has the same human nature that we have.
No. This is not supported by what scripture teaches, nor is is supported by any early church tradition that I am aware of. Christ bore our sins as a sacrifice. I don’t think it can be said that he somehow internalized those sins. If he had done so, then scripture could not say that He was like us in all things except sin.

Peace,
Robert
 
Even by your understanding of what happened on the Cross, God the Father could definitely be said to have brought “harm to His Son” by putting Jesus in harm’s way.
The Father gave that “cup” to Jesus.
That’s a stretch…

I think guan’s point is that there is a clear, and important, distinction to be understood here:

The Father’s disposition and intent regarding the mission of The Son.

vs.

The resultant physical or psychological effect on The Son that the mission would entail

What Jesus experienced as a result of fulfilling His mission was not efficacious for salvation. Rather, salvation lies in WHAT His mission was.
 
brkn1

Do you believe God the Father requires the physical punishment of Jesus in order for salvation to be accomplished along with His death and Resurrection ?

I sense in your mind that you believe if Jesus doesn’t suffer physical punishment in our place at the hands of the Father then God the Father is being contradictory in His word
or will which would be impossible. I’m not sure I’m wording this right. I sense it’s important for you to believe God the Father must be perceived as punishing Jesus in order for God the Father to remain consistent and just as God . Is this correct? 🤷

Could you elaborate on the physical punishment requirement of God the Fathers will in your way of thinking? What does atonement/sacrifice have to do with experiencing it as physical punishment? The important part of the sacrifice is the purity and holiness of the victim not whether it’s punished enough in the process.

Would the death of Jesus be less salvific if he hadn’t been whipped, mocked and crowned with thorns before the crucifixtion?(As if crucifixtion isn’t enough punishment by itself.) Or better yet, what if Jesus had been given a drug to numb the pain of the crucifixtion ? Would his death and resurrection still be salvific?

Catholics believe the sin of Adam merited the punishment of death and loss of grace but not physical punishment other then what we experience here and now as pointed out in Genesis. Animal sacrifice did not require abuse of the animal before the sacrifice .

Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thanks to you and the others who are contributing to this dialogue .I am learning much. I appreciate the civility and charity of the participants as well .👍

God bless us all
All that man did to Jesus did not save us, no matter how awful it was. Our role in the Crucifixion did not and could not work to save us.
Christ did it all. “He His OWN SELF bare our sins in His OWN body on the tree.”
The words “His own Self” does not allow us to have any part in the taking away of our sin.
You will find no Scripture that allows us to bear our sin savingly by any sacrifice, shared or otherwise, on our part.
 
All that man did to Jesus did not save us, no matter how awful it was. Our role in the Crucifixion did not and could not work to save us.
Christ did it all. “He His OWN SELF bare our sins in His OWN body on the tree.”
The words “His own Self” does not allow us to have any part in the taking away of our sin.
You will find no Scripture that allows us to bear our sin savingly by any sacrifice, shared or otherwise, on our part.
Where are you getting any of this from Chanticleer’s post? He/she’s not suggesting man’s role was efficacious in salvation at all. Of course Christ did it all. We did it to Him, but it was His work…not ours.
 
All that man did to Jesus did not save us, no matter how awful it was. Our role in the Crucifixion did not and could not work to save us.
Christ did it all. “He His OWN SELF bare our sins in His OWN body on the tree.”
The words “His own Self” does not allow us to have any part in the taking away of our sin.
You will find no Scripture that allows us to bear our sin savingly by any sacrifice, shared or otherwise, on our part.
I don’t see how your statement is supported by anything in the post you quoted. I don’t think that any Catholics here are saying that the Romans and Jews who participated in the killing of Jesus somehow merited the grace for their own salvation apart from Christ’s Atonement. I think the point being made is that Christ’s death on the cross was a sacrificial death that did not require Jesus to suffer God’s direct wrath due to all of humanity in order to be efficacious.

Peace,
Robert
 
I brought this up before, but there was no real response.
According to the Catechism of your church:
“598 In her Magesterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that ‘sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.’”

This assessment of our role must mean that your church believes that we are effectively acting as the ‘priest’ in the one Sacrifice of Jesus to save us from our sins.
 
I don’t I think the point being made is that Christ’s death on the cross was a sacrificial death that did not require Jesus to suffer God’s direct wrath due to all of humanity in order to be efficacious.

Peace,
Robert
This is the main point of the thread and it defines the difference between us in how Jesus is to be understood as the “Sin-Bearer”.

I have to work now, but this is where I would like to pick up when I come back. Thanks.
 
I brought this up before, but there was no real response.
According to the Catechism of your church:
“598 In her Magesterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that ‘sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.’”

This assessment of our role must mean that your church believes that we are effectively acting as the ‘priest’ in the one Sacrifice of Jesus to save us from our sins.
No; it’s just saying that we all bear guilt for what Jesus suffered. We don’t get to put off the guilt on the people who were there at the time, or on Jesus Himself. We also bear responsibility, because every time we sin we turn away from God – which means that, absent His sacrifice, we would be doomed.

Jesus laid down His life freely and voluntarily. But it’s our fault that He suffered. Not His; not the Father’s; not the Spirit’s; ours.
 
I brought this up before, but there was no real response.
According to the Catechism of your church:
“598 In her Magesterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that ‘sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured.’”

This assessment of our role must mean that your church believes that we are effectively acting as the ‘priest’ in the one Sacrifice of Jesus to save us from our sins.
Please don’t strain yourself while leaping to conclusions. Christ is the both the high priest freely giving up his life for the will of the Father and for God’s love of humanity, and also the victim of the sacrifice by whose death we are saved.

The Catechism says this:
783 Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.208
784 On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people’s unique, priestly vocation: "Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people ‘a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.’ The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood."209
208 Cf. John Paul II, RH 18-21.
209 LG 10; cf. Heb 5:1-5; Rev 1:6.
and this:
Christ’s whole life is an offering to the Father
606 The Son of God, who came down “from heaven, not to do [his] own will, but the will of him who sent [him]”,413 said on coming into the world, “Lo, I have come to do your will, O God.” "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."414 From the first moment of his Incarnation the Son embraces the Father’s plan of divine salvation in his redemptive mission: "My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work."415 The sacrifice of Jesus "for the sins of the whole world"416 expresses his loving communion with the Father. “The Father loves me, because I lay down my life”, said the Lord, "[for] I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."417
607 The desire to embrace his Father’s plan of redeeming love inspired Jesus’ whole life,418 for his redemptive passion was the very reason for his Incarnation. And so he asked, "And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour."419 And again, "Shall I not drink the cup which the Father has given me?"420 From the cross, just before “It is finished”, he said, "I thirst."421
“The Lamb who takes away the sin of the world”
608 After agreeing to baptize him along with the sinners, John the Baptist looked at Jesus and pointed him out as the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”.422 By doing so, he reveals that Jesus is at the same time the suffering Servant who silently allows himself to be led to the slaughter and who bears the sin of the multitudes, and also the Paschal Lamb, the symbol of Israel’s redemption at the first Passover.423 Christ’s whole life expresses his mission: "to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."424
Jesus freely embraced the Father’s redeeming love
609 By embracing in his human heart the Father’s love for men, Jesus “loved them to the end”, for "greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."425 In suffering and death his humanity became the free and perfect instrument of his divine love which desires the salvation of men.426 Indeed, out of love for his Father and for men, whom the Father wants to save, Jesus freely accepted his Passion and death: "No one takes [my life] from me, but I lay it down of my own accord."427 Hence the sovereign freedom of God’s Son as he went out to his death.428
413 Jn 6:38.
414 Heb 10:5-10.
415 Jn 4:34.
416 1 Jn 2:2.
417 Jn 10:17; 14:31.
418 Cf Lk 12:50; 22:15; Mt 16:21-23.
419 Jn 12:27.
420 Jn 18:11.
421 Jn 19:30; 19:28.
422 Jn 1:29; cf. Lk 3:21; Mt 3:14-15; Jn 1:36.
423 Isa 53:7,12; cf. Jer 11:19; Ex 12:3-14; Jn 19:36; 1 Cor 5:7.
424 Mk 10:45.
425 Jn 13:1; 15:13.
426 Cf. Heb 2:10,17-18; 4:15; 5:7-9.
427 Jn 10:18.
428 Cf. Jn 18:4-6; Mt 26:53.
Humanitiy taking part in His unjust killing merits nothing apart from the actions of Christ, who by His will transformed His unjust death into a freely given offering and an atoning sacrifice.

Peace,
Robert
 
The existence of the Mass
Before dealing with the proofs of revelation afforded by the Bible and tradition, certain preliminary points must first be decided. Of these the most important is that the Church intends the Mass to be regarded as a “true and proper sacrifice”, and will not tolerate the idea that the sacrifice is identical with Holy Communion. That is the sense of a clause from the Council of Trent (Sess. XXII, can. 1): “If any one saith that in the Mass a true and proper sacrifice is not offered to God; or, that to be offered is nothing else but that Christ is given us to eat; let him be anathema” (Denzinger, “Enchir.”, 10th ed. 1908, n. 948). When Leo XIII in the dogmatic Bull “Apostolicae Curae” of 13 Sept., 1896, based the invalidity of the Anglican form of consecration on the fact among others, that in the consecrating formula of Edward VI (that is, since 1549) there is nowhere an unambiguous declaration regarding the Sacrifice of the Mass, the Anglican archbishops answered with some irritation: “First, we offer the Sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; next, we plead and represent before the Father the Sacrifice of the Cross . . . and, lastly, we offer the Sacrifice of ourselves to the Creator of all things, which we have already signified by the oblation of His creatures. This whole action, in which the people has necessarily to take part with the priest, we are accustomed to call the communion, the Eucharistic Sacrifice”. In regard to this last contention, Bishop Hedley of Newport declared his belief that not one Anglican in a thousand is accustomed to call the communion the “Eucharistic Sacrifice.” But even if they were all so accustomed, they would have to interpret the terms in the sense of the thirty-nine Articles, which deny both the Real Presence and the sacrifical power of the priest, and thus admit a sacrifice in an unreal or figurative sense only. Leo XIII, on the other hand, in union with the whole Christian past, had in mind in the above-mentioned Bull nothing else than the Eucharistic “Sacrifice of the true Body and Blood of Christ” on the altar. This Sacrifice is certainly not identical with the Anglican form of celebration.

The simple fact that numerous heretics, such as Wyclif and Luther, repudiated the Mass as “idolatry”, while retaining the Sacrament of the true Body and Blood of Christ, proves that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is something essentially different from the Sacrifice of the Mass. In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good. Furthermore, the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Christ is in its nature a transient action, while the Sacrament of the Altar continues as something permanent after the sacrifice, and can even be preserved in monstrance and ciborium. Finally, this difference also deserves mention: communion under one form only is the reception of the whole sacrament, whereas, without the use of the two forms of bread and wine (the symbolic separation of the Body and Blood), the mystical slaying of the victim, and therefore the Sacrifice of the Mass, does not take place.
The definition of the Council of Trent supposes as self-evident the proposition that, along with the “true and real Sacrifice of the Mass”, there can be and are in Christendom figurative and unreal sacrifices of various kinds, such as prayers of praise and thanksgiving, alms, mortification, obedience, and works of penance. Such offerings are often referred to in Holy Scripture, e.g. in Ecclesiasticus 35:4: “All he that doth mercy offereth sacrifice”; and in Psalm 140:2: “Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight, the lifting up of my hands as evening sacrifice.” These figurative offerings, however, necessarily presuppose the real and true offering, just as a picture presupposes its subject and a portrait its original. The Biblical metaphors – a “sacrifice of jubilation” (Ps. xxvi, 6), the "calves of our lips (Hosea 14:3), the “sacrifice of praise” (Hebrews 13:15) – expressions which apply sacrificial terms to sacrifice (hostia, thysia). That there was such a sacrifice, the whole sacrificial system of the Old Law bears witness. It is true that we may and must recognize with St. Thomas (II-II:85:3), as the principale sacrificium the sacrificial intent which, embodied in the spirit of prayer, inspires and animates the external offerings as the body animates the soul, and without which even the most perfect offering has neither worth nor effect before God. Hence, the holy psalmist says: “For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt-offerings thou wilt not be delighted. A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit” (Ps. I, 18 sq.). This indispensable requirement of an internal sacrifice, however, by no means makes the external sacrifice superfluous in Christianity; indeed, without a perpetual oblation deriving its value from the sacrifice once offered on the Cross, Christianity, the perfect religion, would be inferior not only to the Old Testament, but even to the poorest form of natural religion. Since sacrifice is thus essential to religion, it is all the more necessary for Christianity, which cannot otherwise fulfil its duty of showing outward honour to God in the most perfect way.
New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia LOL Nancy:D
 
And I knew that you would insert the doctrine of penal substitution, because that is how you can make “sense” out of the great mystery of atonement. 😃

Many people are uncomfortable with mysteries, and spiritual truths that defy human understanding.

Actually, I did not say that. I said that Abraham did not impute the sins of others to Isaac, and decide to slay him as punishement for those sins. God the Father was willing to sacrifice His only Son to atone for the sins of the world. Your formulation, though, of a vengeful God of wrath is not required for this to happen. Abraham was not vengeful and full of wrath.

God did not bring harm to His son. It is we who have fallen short of God’s glory that have brought this harm to Him.

God does not take vengence and wrath against Himself.
Blessed are those who believe in the mysteries of God’s revelations without understanding. For that is what Faith is – believing without doubting whatever God has revealed.

🙂
 
Even by your understanding of what happened on the Cross, God the Father could definitely be said to have brought “harm to His Son” by putting Jesus in harm’s way.
The Father gave that “cup” to Jesus.
Jesus took that cup upon himself! Isaiah 53 All of it! Love of Christ Nancy:D
 
Jesus took that cup upon himself! Isaiah 53 All of it! Love of Christ Nancy:D
Yes, Jesus said “…not my Will, but thy Will” as He voluntarily accepted the cup.
The next question becomes: Who gave Jesus the cup? Was it the Father or was it us?
 
No. This is not supported by what scripture teaches, nor is is supported by any early church tradition that I am aware of. Christ bore our sins as a sacrifice. I don’t think it can be said that he somehow internalized those sins. If he had done so, then scripture could not say that He was like us in all things except sin.

Peace,
Robert
If Jesus bore our sins as a sacrifice of Himself only in the death of His human body, then why does (Isaiah 53:6) say"…; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."?
What need is there for anything to be laid upon Jesus, if the sacrficial death of Jesus was sufficient?
Keep in mind that the Lord is described as the Person laying iniquity upon Jesus, not us sinners, whose iniquities are being laid upon Jesus by the Father.
 
A few passages come to mind when I read through this thread.

2 Peter 3:16

Isolating one passage of scripture outside the entire scripture, especially the entire deposit of faith, is dangerous and self-serving. This is why we have over 30,000 denominations that claim to be “the church”, hijacking its identity. It gives a whole new meaning to identiy theft.😉

Catholcis believe that Christ paid the price for all of mankind. He bought us a movie ticket, now we have to use it and actually go watch the movie he bought the ticket for us to see. My hip shooting analogy. You can color it different colors but it comes out the same. Christ did not HAVE to die on a cross. God could have chosen to save us by requiring us to pray a prayer from the heart, but he did NOT do that. He could have required us to memorize every word in the bible…IN GREEK…but that’s not what He chose to do. HE chose a way to show us the seriousness…gravity of our sins in a way that we could understand.

You’re chasing ghosts.
 
askacatholic.com/_TheChurch/vatican_mailingaddress.cfm

Here’s a book > Catechism of the Catholic Church to start reading if you want to actually know what the Church believes. If you want confusion, then continue to ask the uneducated, unrefined and uninspired laity or a knuckleheaded* clergyman. If you want to see how many interpretations you can get for this same scripture, try going to my previous church, the Church of Christ [church restoration movement]. Then go to a different congregation and see just how different the same scriptures will be taught. Then watch yourself get disfellowshipped when they find out what you believe.:eek: Been there more than once and we have a large Church of Christ family with all leaders, deacons, bishops and preachers.

Many scriptures can have multiple meanings. Some times the answer is “both-and”. But to take one verse out of context from the entire scritpure and especially out from those given the authority to teach/interpret it you have chaos. That is what I did for many years thinking along the same lines with Solo Scriptura as my premise. I discovered that people decide what they want to beleive and then they set out to prove it. I call them black liners and highlighters. They block out scripture that disputes their interpretations and distort them even further by over emphasising those passages that they want to make say what they want to believe.

I was raised in a mixed faith Christian family, split at the seams from opposing views and ultimately torn in divorce more than once. So which parent should I condemn to hell, both? My previous faith would have taught you that you are bound to hell if you are not properly baptized as a believer at the age of reason and do not follow the bible as written as a whole. Dear me. They had good intensions but I discovered a lot of inconsistency but yet they were quite sincere and thought they were truly being charitable as they informed you that you were going to go to hell for not believing the truth. Yet the truth was not clear or they’d just ignore or skip over scripture they did not understand. I can’t tell you how many times I beat my head up against a wall because of their show of ignorance. The irony is that I was showing my own ignorance and ultimately came to the conclusion that nothing can be real if one is not real.

*meaning one running amuck or a dissenter
 
Yes, Jesus said “…not my Will, but thy Will” as He voluntarily accepted the cup.
The next question becomes: Who gave Jesus the cup? Was it the Father or was it us?
Here is your answer:Hebrews 9:13-14 Lev. 17:11 Jesus was the sacrifice upon the cross.God Bless Nancy
 
If Jesus bore our sins as a sacrifice of Himself only in the death of His human body, then why does (Isaiah 53:6) say"…; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."?
I am not the one separating the human and divine natures of Christ in my analysis. The Lord’s plan was to lay the iniquity of us all on Christ. And he bore that iniquity (sin). But he did not receive our punishment for it. Instead, he offered His life (He died) as a sacrifice of Atonement.
40.png
brkn1:
What need is there for anything to be laid upon Jesus, if the sacrficial death of Jesus was sufficient?
The sacrifice entailed Christ taking on our sins and freely giving up His life in Atonement for our sins. The sacrifice did not entail Jesus suffering the wrath of God in our place. Our sins were laid upon Him just as the jewish temple sacrifices foreshadowed it. The temple sacrifices did not require that the paschal lamb suffer the punishment due to sin. The sacrifice required the body and blood of the lamb. just as Christ gave his body and blood as a sacrifice, and not to be a whipping boy in our place. Do you not see this yet? You are reading your position into all of these quotes you keep throwing out. They do not support your penal substitute theory.
40.png
brkn1:
Keep in mind that the Lord is described as the Person laying iniquity upon Jesus, not us sinners, whose iniquities are being laid upon Jesus by the Father.
So what? It was the Father’s plan that those sins be placed on Jesus, just as it was the Father’s plan to institute the Jewish sacrifices of the temple, in which sins were allowed to be placed on the sacrificial animal - according to God’s plan. I fail to understand why you think this is a distinction that makes a difference. It does not support your conclusion that Jesus suffered God’s punishment in our place. It supports the Catholic position, that Jesus gave His life as an act of love, as a sacrifice to Atone for our sins.

Peace,
-Robert
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top