C
Cam-masta
Guest
Did Christ become one with mankind, and nature? I have asked my friend with a green thumb this question, and it has been on my mind.
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B
Blade_and_Blood
Guest
I believe He did, but it’s quite the controversy. Who said mankind and animals were two separate beings?
I honestly believe no matter how “sophisticated” or organized or intelligent we are, it just puts us higher on the food chain. Rather than becoming a species above animals, we have become the most vicious animal of them all.
Main evidence: The Earth and what we’ve done to it.
:twocents:
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
I honestly believe no matter how “sophisticated” or organized or intelligent we are, it just puts us higher on the food chain. Rather than becoming a species above animals, we have become the most vicious animal of them all.
Main evidence: The Earth and what we’ve done to it.
:twocents:
Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood
D
davidv
Guest
Christ took on human nature. He did not become one with mankind or nature. He also did not take on animal nature.
Humans are distinguished from the animals by having an immortal soul, an intellect and a will.
Humans are distinguished from the animals by having an immortal soul, an intellect and a will.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Man is an animal - it is artificial to separate them. And it is equally artificial to separate man from any other “lower” form of life or creature: plants, insects, atoms. From one POV man is just a rather superior atom - because they are what we are made of; including Jesus. If the incarnation is not be meaningless, it includes assuming not only manhood, but every so-called “lower” form of life in the tree of evolution, or that of creation, as well; to divorce man from voles & pigs & atoms leads to nothing but trouble. There is far more to being human than having a soul, & far more to being an animal than not having a self-conscious spirit. We are as much plants as any daisy or Venus’ fly-trap is. All these things are related.
S
Saintlucy
Guest
Jesus Christ is God. God made everything. Therefore everything else is not God. Jesus became man, is still man and still God and ever will be.
We are human, made in His image and likeness (although I struggle to understand what that means, as I am a sinner and not particularly gorgeous) and God breathed an immortal soul into us. He didn’t do this to any other creature. He gave us dominion over his creation. That’s the way it goes as far as we know. That doesn’t stop me loving animals and hoping that the ones I’ve loved and loved me are in heaven when I die. Sorry, if I get there!
We are human, made in His image and likeness (although I struggle to understand what that means, as I am a sinner and not particularly gorgeous) and God breathed an immortal soul into us. He didn’t do this to any other creature. He gave us dominion over his creation. That’s the way it goes as far as we know. That doesn’t stop me loving animals and hoping that the ones I’ve loved and loved me are in heaven when I die. Sorry, if I get there!
D
Dtmccameron
Guest
Awww, SaintLucy! You’re plenty gorgeous! Why,regardless of how well the world or you think you look physically, you were “fearfully and wonderfully made”. What’s more, of the many adjectives used to describe God, I don’t think I’ve ever heard “pretty”. Point is, when we were made in His image, it didn’t mean, as I assumed at first, that God is humanoid, with two legs, arms, eyes, ears, and nostrils. Nope, it’s much more to do with our souls, our consciences, and our free will. That’s why you’re beautiful, and that’s what seperates man from the beasts, despite whatever those activist whacko’s will tell you, you are not a beast.
See, when they stripped the world of the supernatural, because they thought it oppressed the natural, and they so loved the natural. And why shouldn’t they? It’s lovely!..most of the time. But when the removed the supernatural, to their horror they were not left with the natural, but the unnatural! In their quest to make man a beast, they turned him into a monstrosity!
Could the OP please cite references to the idea he has presented? Because I for one have never heard any mention of Christ becoming one with “nature” (sound very hippie like) or mankind. What would that even entail, precicely?
If anyone feels they are equal to a blade of grass, may Heaven, nonetheless, please spare them the lawnmowers!
N
N80
Guest
The idea that man is just another animal is a very human idea and not a Biblical one. It is a matter of taxonomy. Taxonomy has failed the biological sciences continuously since its inception and continues to do so toady. The echidna and the platypus find their place on taxonomic ‘tree’ purely because we don’t know where else to put them.
I’m a biologist by trade and would not rely on any human ‘scientific’ notion that suggested that I am simply another degree of animal.
The Bible makes clear distinction between man and animal. In Genesis man is given dominion over animal, and the earth, by God.
So I do not believe that Christ became one with animals, nor with plants or bacteria or viruses or RNA or RNA or primordial slime or dirt.
However, I do believe that Christ will ultimately change all of these things; at least all of them as they have been affected by the Fall. And I do believe that God/Christ care about and for all of these things. He loves his creation and he wants it to be perfect again, and it will be. But remember, everything that God created he created for man. Everything.
Finally, as an aside, C.S. Lewis has said that he believes it possible that animals that we have taken as pets and that take on human traits, might just have souls and might have a place in heaven. He admits it is pure wishful thinking.
On the other hand, James Dickey’s poem, The Heaven of Animals is another way of looking at the topic:
judithpordon.tripod.com/poetry/james_dickey_the_heaven_of_animals.html
George
I’m a biologist by trade and would not rely on any human ‘scientific’ notion that suggested that I am simply another degree of animal.
The Bible makes clear distinction between man and animal. In Genesis man is given dominion over animal, and the earth, by God.
So I do not believe that Christ became one with animals, nor with plants or bacteria or viruses or RNA or RNA or primordial slime or dirt.
However, I do believe that Christ will ultimately change all of these things; at least all of them as they have been affected by the Fall. And I do believe that God/Christ care about and for all of these things. He loves his creation and he wants it to be perfect again, and it will be. But remember, everything that God created he created for man. Everything.
Finally, as an aside, C.S. Lewis has said that he believes it possible that animals that we have taken as pets and that take on human traits, might just have souls and might have a place in heaven. He admits it is pure wishful thinking.
On the other hand, James Dickey’s poem, The Heaven of Animals is another way of looking at the topic:
judithpordon.tripod.com/poetry/james_dickey_the_heaven_of_animals.html
George
A
Amaze
Guest
Pets can and do become an important part in the lives of millions.
I think animals have also an immortal soul, an limited intellect and an limited will. And they wil go to heaven, like children.
D
davidv
Guest
You may believe this, but it is not consistent with Church teaching.
N
N80
Guest
And there is no Biblical precedent for it either. It is nice to hope for it, and might turn out to be true, but hoping it and thinking it nice does not make it scriptural.
George
George
R
redrosetea
Guest
Christ called Himself the Good Shepherd…that must mean he felt that people and animals had something in common
He rode on a donkey…he talked about the birds being fed by the Providence of God…I think he must have liked animals a bit
He rode on a donkey…he talked about the birds being fed by the Providence of God…I think he must have liked animals a bit
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N80
Guest
He talked about vines and trees and rocks too but I’m not sure that means anything in terms of his becoming one with them or their status in eternity.
However, as I mentioned before, I agree with you that all of these things are part of His creation and part of his perfect plan for his ultimate creation, us. And if animals were such an integral part of the pre-lapsarian creation…and the post-lapsarian as well since the ark was made to preserve animals too, then it is not hard to imagine that there will be animals in the new heaven and new earth. So sure, we can hope and even expect but we simply do not have any scriptural or church doctrine that can confirm this hope.
George
However, as I mentioned before, I agree with you that all of these things are part of His creation and part of his perfect plan for his ultimate creation, us. And if animals were such an integral part of the pre-lapsarian creation…and the post-lapsarian as well since the ark was made to preserve animals too, then it is not hard to imagine that there will be animals in the new heaven and new earth. So sure, we can hope and even expect but we simply do not have any scriptural or church doctrine that can confirm this hope.
George
R
redrosetea
Guest
Both of the last 2 popes have said they think animals have souls, not like ours but that they were infused by the breath of God to give them life, and were put in our care
I think they were animals lovers…I know Pope Benedict loves cats, Pope John Paul II loved everything
I think they were animals lovers…I know Pope Benedict loves cats, Pope John Paul II loved everything
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N80
Guest
I’m not familiar with how Popes make things doctrinal…I’m sure I’m even exposing more ignorance as I claim it… but you say that they said they think animals have souls. What weight does that have doctrinally?
George
R
redrosetea
Guest
It carries no weight as far as doctrine, but it says a lot as far as personal belief
They were not speaking on behalf of the church only saying what they believed to be true
Peta loves both of the popes for their gentleness and concern for animals
They were not speaking on behalf of the church only saying what they believed to be true
Peta loves both of the popes for their gentleness and concern for animals
J
jesusismyrock
Guest
Christ became one with man. Humans and only humans are made in the image and likeness of God. Go read the first book in the Bible, Genesis, if you are having problems understanding.
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N80
Guest
That is a reasonable but staggeringly broad definition of the word soul and one that most people would have problems with. Few Christians would equate the same word that refers to our immortal being for which Christ died as the same type of entity that animates a flower.
I’m not arguing that this is what the Church says or even that that is one definition of the word soul. I’m just saying it does little to enlighten this discussion.
George
R
redrosetea
Guest
pope John Paul II: ‘animals possess a soul’
When Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience in 1990 that ‘also the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren’ some people must have thought this was a new teaching, unaware of the Holy Father’s scholarly familiarity with the authentic Hebrew texts. When he went on to state that all animals are ‘fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect’ and that they are ‘as near to God as men are’, animal lovers in the audience were ecstatic! The Pope mentions the special relationship of mankind with God as being created in His image and likeness. ‘However,’ he goes on ‘other texts state that animals have the breath of life and were given it by God. In this respect, man, created by the hand of God, is identical with all other living creatures. And so in Psalm 104 there is no distinction between man and beasts when it reads, addressing God: " … Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." The existence therefore,’ the Holy Father reminds us, ‘of all living creatures depends on the living spirit/breath of God that not only creates but also sustains and renews the face of the earth.’
This discourse caused a stir around the world, and was especially encouraging to Catholic animal welfare groups which had begun to despair that anything ‘animal friendly’ would ever be heard in Rome. The then professor of theology and dogma at the University of Urbino, Carlo Molari, called it ‘very important and significant. It is a “sign of the times” because it demonstrates the Church’s desire and deep concern to clarify present confused thinking and attitudes towards the animal kingdom. There should be no need, but the Pontiff, in reiterating that animals came into being because of the direct action of the “breath” of God, wanted to say that also these creatures, as well as man, are possessed of the divine spark of life and that living quality that is the soul. And are therefore not inferior beings or only of a purely material reality.’
When Pope John Paul II declared in a public audience in 1990 that ‘also the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren’ some people must have thought this was a new teaching, unaware of the Holy Father’s scholarly familiarity with the authentic Hebrew texts. When he went on to state that all animals are ‘fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect’ and that they are ‘as near to God as men are’, animal lovers in the audience were ecstatic! The Pope mentions the special relationship of mankind with God as being created in His image and likeness. ‘However,’ he goes on ‘other texts state that animals have the breath of life and were given it by God. In this respect, man, created by the hand of God, is identical with all other living creatures. And so in Psalm 104 there is no distinction between man and beasts when it reads, addressing God: " … Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." The existence therefore,’ the Holy Father reminds us, ‘of all living creatures depends on the living spirit/breath of God that not only creates but also sustains and renews the face of the earth.’
This discourse caused a stir around the world, and was especially encouraging to Catholic animal welfare groups which had begun to despair that anything ‘animal friendly’ would ever be heard in Rome. The then professor of theology and dogma at the University of Urbino, Carlo Molari, called it ‘very important and significant. It is a “sign of the times” because it demonstrates the Church’s desire and deep concern to clarify present confused thinking and attitudes towards the animal kingdom. There should be no need, but the Pontiff, in reiterating that animals came into being because of the direct action of the “breath” of God, wanted to say that also these creatures, as well as man, are possessed of the divine spark of life and that living quality that is the soul. And are therefore not inferior beings or only of a purely material reality.’
D
Dtmccameron
Guest
That seems to be a very broad usage of the word “soul”, but it touches on an important point of God being the Creator and life giver of all things.
Why, the sun wouldn’t rise in the morning if He didn’t will us another twelve odd hours of light and warmth with which to work for His purposes.
Further, I don’t think the very fact that we share “life” with the rest of creation in any way makes us equal to it, nor does anything make it inferior to us.
A thought: Could it be that we are with all the things in the universe, His beloved creations, but we human beings are also His beloved Children? Some degree of seperation, no?
Then again, why should Christ, according to the title of the thread, be only united with men and animals? What about the rest of creation? What about angels?
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