"Christ decended to Hell"

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Also “today” and “3 days” have no direct correlation to the time-less spiritual realm, when Jesus asserted that the thief would be with him in Paradise “today” he was using our mental constructs.
Once dead time ceases to exist for them, Jesus reappears in our timeline 3 days after to fulfill the OT, He can reappear to us at any given point in time and space He wishes if this is what God’s plan calls for.
…and the ‘spaceless spritual realm’–particularly as applied to the Second Person of the Trinity–as in, ‘omnipresence’. IOW, who says Christ couldn’t be with the theif in paradise, while also “going to hell, and freeing the just dead?”

Is it really a contradiction to suggest that Chirst was in Hell…AND in paradise–on the same day/at the same time?

What’s more, we say Christ descended into hell–from where did he descend? The earth? What if Christ went to Heaven (took the theif with Him)…then descended from heaven, to hell…then resurrected?

So much room for conjecture and speculation…so many different possiblities…

It reminds me of Zwignli’s simplistic objection to teh Real Presence—“Christ can’t be present in the Eucharist, because He is seated at teh right hand of the Father”–as if the latter were mutually exclusive with the former (seems just a tad small minded, imo).

just say’n…
 
Are you saying that for three days Jesus’ dual nature was severed? .
No. It is a Divine mystery that no human can fathom, just as the Holy Trinity cannot be fully understood by the limited human mind. When Christ dwelt among us on earth, He was never severed from the Father and Holy Ghost, either.
Remember he said, “Do not touch me for I have not yet returned to the Father.” That seemed to indicate he had not returned in “bodily” form, hence, “do not touch.”
No, Christ indeed was Resurrected PHYSICALLY as well as His Spirit. Him showing the Apostles the holes in His Sacred hands and feet give such proof and significance to this physicality. His instruction for them not to touch Him since He had not returned to the Father is another mystery. He didn’t think it was necessary to tell us why…
 
No. It is a Divine mystery that no human can fathom, just as the Holy Trinity cannot be fully understood by the limited human mind. When Christ dwelt among us on earth, He was never severed from the Father and Holy Ghost, either.
Well, JJJ, I’m not so much attempting to “fathom” it as wondering “which” it was, both Christ’s human nature (his human soul) and Christ’s divine nature went to free the souls in hell, or just Christ’s human nature. It would seem more consistent with his descending in power (his divine nature) to free the souls there, that he descended in both his human and divine natures to that realm where the souls were waiting. I am comforted by the fact that Christ has permanently joined himself to our humanity never to be severed from it, then and now and for all eternity. It would serve no purpose for his human nature alone to descend to hell, for then it would take the power of God to raise him from hell, and the other souls with him, and then to raise him a second time from the dead in his bodily form. Besides, it is said that Christ went to hell to free the souls there; so far as I know, he could not do that in his human nature, which did not have power over life and death, which only his divine nature did. That’s how I reason it, anyway, which I do not believe is trying to fathom too much, only reason from what scriptures from what is given, just as we reason from scriptures that there IS a Trinity, and make some deductions about it, but we can do no more in terms of “fathoming” it. Peace to you. James
 
Well, JJJ, I’m not so much attempting to “fathom” it as wondering “which” it was, both Christ’s human nature (his human soul) and Christ’s divine nature went to free the souls in hell, or just Christ’s human nature. It would seem more consistent with his descending in power (his divine nature) to free the souls there, that he descended in both his human and divine natures to that realm where the souls were waiting. I am comforted by the fact that Christ has permanently joined himself to our humanity never to be severed from it, then and now and for all eternity. It would serve no purpose for his human nature alone to descend to hell, for then it would take the power of God to raise him from hell, and the other souls with him, and then to raise him a second time from the dead in his bodily form. Besides, it is said that Christ went to hell to free the souls there; so far as I know, he could not do that in his human nature, which did not have power over life and death, which only his divine nature did. That’s how I reason it, anyway, which I do not believe is trying to fathom too much, only reason from what scriptures from what is given, just as we reason from scriptures that there IS a Trinity, and make some deductions about it, but we can do no more in terms of “fathoming” it. Peace to you. James
I see your point, and it’s a very good point. As far as I understand, Christ as a Divine Being (including both His Divine NATURE and human nature) released the souls from the Bosom of Abraham, but it was just His human nature that spent time there for 3 days. Very mysterious, indeed; and you know, this topic of Christ’s Natures unfortunately led to the first schism between the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Church. I think pride combined with semantics in attempting to describe Christ’s Natures, despite words not being capable of describing it, nor the human mind fully understanding it, led to this schism. Hopefully we will reunite again while remaining in the tradition of the Deposit of Faith and Doctors of the Church. Peace to you and yours.
 
I see your point, and it’s a very good point. As far as I understand, Christ as a Divine Being (including both His Divine NATURE and human nature) released the souls from the Bosom of Abraham, but it was just His human nature that spent time there for 3 days. Very mysterious, indeed; and you know, this topic of Christ’s Natures unfortunately led to the first schism between the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox Church. I think pride combined with semantics in attempting to describe Christ’s Natures, despite words not being capable of describing it, nor the human mind fully understanding it, led to this schism. Hopefully we will reunite again while remaining in the tradition of the Deposit of Faith and Doctors of the Church. Peace to you and yours.
Where is the evidence that his human nature alone spent three days in hell? The evidence is that his body lay dead for three days. We believe that he, in both natures, descended into hell and freed the souls there. We don’t know how long he stayed there. We do know that after three days his body was resurrected from the dead. I would say that his two natures were never separated at any time. Peace. 🙂
 
Where is the evidence that his human nature spent three days in hell? The evidence is that his body lay dead for three days. We believe that he, in both natures, descended into hell and freed the souls there. We don’t know how long he stayed there. We do know that after three days his body was resurrected from the dead. I would say that his two natures were never separated at any time. Peace. 🙂
There are some Mysteries that we will never be able to know for sure, so let’s ask Him when we get to Heaven! God Bless, Memaw
 
There are some Mysteries that we will never be able to know for sure, so let’s ask Him when we get to Heaven! God Bless, Memaw
I’ll do that, too. 🙂 But for now, Memaw, I’ll take the Church’s lead down through the centuries and contemplate such matters. We have the Holy Spirit always present to lead us into all truth. Much of Catholic doctrine comes from men and women exercising their power to reason under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It’s not something to be shunned. Peace. James
 
I’ll do that, too. 🙂 But for now, Memaw, I’ll take the Church’s lead down through the centuries and contemplate such matters. We have the Holy Spirit always present to lead us into all truth. Much of Catholic doctrine comes from men and women exercising their power to reason under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It’s not something to be shunned. Peace. James
I imagine its been contemplated over the centuries by many very holy people as well as Saints and we still don’t know anymore than what we did. Catholic doctrine comes from what Jesus and the Apostles taught. There will be no more revealed. The Church helps us to accept and apply these teaching to our own lives. Contemplating such Mysteries is a great part of our prayer life. God Bless, Memaw
 
The apocryphal book, “The Gospel of Nicodemus” relates the story of Christs descent into hell. He frees Adam and all the O.T. saints. He appears to Satan and his cohorts, defeating them. Finally leading his saints to Paradise. While it is apocryphal, the events that it relates… perhaps occurred. Jesus would have descended into “Hell” , that is Limbo and Hell proper where Satan is. He would have appeared to the O.T. Saints, so they could have the joy of his victory, there freedom. He would have appeared to Satan and his followers to prove his divinity, and chain him down. As well as taking the good to Paradise and letting them in through it’s gates. This could all take three days!:yup:
 
The apocryphal book, “The Gospel of Nicodemus” relates the story of Christs descent into hell. He frees Adam and all the O.T. saints. He appears to Satan and his cohorts, defeating them. Finally leading his saints to Paradise. While it is apocryphal, the events that it relates… perhaps occurred. Jesus would have descended into “Hell” , that is Limbo and Hell proper where Satan is. He would have appeared to the O.T. Saints, so they could have the joy of his victory, there freedom. He would have appeared to Satan and his followers to prove his divinity, and chain him down. As well as taking the good to Paradise and letting them in through it’s gates. This could all take three days!:yup:
Sorry to sound so ignorant, but what is the Gospel of Nicodemus?
 
The apocryphal book, “The Gospel of Nicodemus” relates the story of Christs descent into hell. He frees Adam and all the O.T. saints. He appears to Satan and his cohorts, defeating them. Finally leading his saints to Paradise. While it is apocryphal, the events that it relates… perhaps occurred. Jesus would have descended into “Hell” , that is Limbo and Hell proper where Satan is. He would have appeared to the O.T. Saints, so they could have the joy of his victory, there freedom. He would have appeared to Satan and his followers to prove his divinity, and chain him down. As well as taking the good to Paradise and letting them in through it’s gates. This could all take three days!:yup:
Not part of the Sacred Scriptures or the Catholic Church Teachings. I think Satan knew who Jesus was long before Jesus died. He didn’t have to prove His Divinity. God Bless, Memaw
 
Where is the evidence that his human nature alone spent three days in hell? … I would say that his two natures were never separated at any time. Peace. 🙂
This has been the teaching of the Church, at least such teaching is His human nature alone spent time in Abraham’s Bosom (but maybe not for the whole 3 days, we really don’t know how long He was there, but some say 3 days since that is time that elapsed before He Resurrected). Why would His Divine nature spend time there? Only human creations spent time there as a waiting place for the righteous to be freed by Christ’s Divine Sacrifice; but this does not mean both Natures were separate (in the sense they were not united). When Christ died on the Cross, His Divine Nature did NOT die, rather only His human nature died. That does not mean they were separate in the sense there was no Hypostatic union. The same applies to only Christ’s human nature spending time in the Limbo. His Divine nature was still united with His human nature, but the Divine nature did not spend time in “hell”, yet the union between both Natures remained. It’s a mystery humans will not be able to understand, just as we cannot fully understand the Holy Trinity - One God.

You actually sound like you might adhere to Miaphysitism, which seems to teach Christ’s divinity and humanity are united or fused into ONE nature. This was defined as heresy by the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD), and led to the schism between the Oriental and Roman/Eastern Church.
 
I imagine its been contemplated over the centuries by many very holy people as well as Saints and we still don’t know anymore than what we did. Catholic doctrine comes from what Jesus and the Apostles taught. There will be no more revealed. The Church helps us to accept and apply these teaching to our own lives. Contemplating such Mysteries is a great part of our prayer life. God Bless, Memaw
Naturally, most doctrine comes from what Jesus and the Apostles taught, but not all, for example, the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the assumption of Mary into heaven. And doctrines like the transubstantiation grew out of what Jesus and the Apostles taught, but advanced and amplified the understanding of what they taught. There is also private revelation, which advances our knowledge. Saint Peter’s vision at Joppa is a good example of private revelation, and it even became a part of the Bible.
 
Has anyone here read Hans Urs von Balthasar and his take on Christ’s Descent into Hell?
 
Naturally, most doctrine comes from what Jesus and the Apostles taught, but not all, for example, the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and the assumption of Mary into heaven. And doctrines like the transubstantiation grew out of what Jesus and the Apostles taught, but advanced and amplified the understanding of what they taught. There is also private revelation, which advances our knowledge. Saint Peter’s vision at Joppa is a good example of private revelation, and it even became a part of the Bible.
The Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary have always been believed by the Catholic Church from the beginning. After all, the Angel Gabriel greeted Mary, “Full of Grace” she has to be Immaculate to be full of Grace. After the Protestant Reformation and many Christians were doubting them, the Holy Father explained them infallibly and defined them as a Dogma, meaning all Catholics have to believe them. Transubstantiation is the name given to the miracle that takes place during the consecration. Private revelations are not a part of Doctrine and Catholics are not binding to believe them. If it’s in the Bible, I don’t think it’s considered private revelation. Ask someone in the question and answer part of this forum. God Bless, Memaw
 
Tell us about it, ok. God Bless, Memaw
Well, I was asking more than venturing to answer since it seems that there are quite a number of people on the Apologetics Forum of CAF who are studying or have studied theology and divinity in university, whereas I have never taken a course on religion in my life, neither in university nor high school (public).

In any event, I first came across Balthasar’s name in university where I often bought the monthly religious journal First Things. In one issue in the 1990s, the Catholic editor, the late Richard John Neuhaus, wrote:

"It’s chiefly a Roman Catholic phenomenon at present, this discovery of Hans Urs von Balthasar, but in time it will almost certainly engage Protestants, Jews, and everybody else interested in the possibilities of theology at the edge of the Third Millennium. It seems implausible that one man could have written so much about so much so brilliantly. At his Requiem Mass (he died in 1988 at age eighty-three), Cardinal Ratzinger declared von Balthasar the most learned man in Europe, and it would be as believable if he had said the most learned man in the world.

Shortly before he died, von Balthasar was made a cardinal by Pope John Paul II-a high level imprimatur on his life’s work. This despite the fact that some thought von Balthasar stepped across the line of orthodoxy on a few subjects. For instance, his Dare We Hope that All Men Be Saved? (with a brief discourse on hell) is a daring reflection on universal redemption. His answer is yes, we dare so hope and should so hope, while maintaining the orthodox understanding that the final judgment is, of course, God’s alone. Similarly, in Mysterium Paschale, one of his more difficult books, von Balthasar contends that Christ’s descent into hell should be understood in terms not of his triumph but of his final abandonment by God. That is a break from the interpretation of the received tradition, but is considered by Catholic authorities to be a theological opinion that can legitimately be held and explored."

My curiousity peaked, I then followed articles in First Things on Balthasar with the late Avery Cardinal Dulles writing about “The Population of Hell” relying on Balthasar and the debates between Alyssa Lyra Pitstick and Fr. Edward T. Oakes on hell and Hans Urs von Balthasar’s controversial Holy Saturday theology arguing that Christ’s descent into hell was a passive suffering descent.

One blog pointed out that Pope Benedict, back in his early days as a teacher, used Balthasar to connect Jesus’ death-cry of abandonment on the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" with the Descent into Hell.

In all honesty, I favoured Fulton Sheen’s interpretation of Jesus’ cry of abandonment on the Cross wherein he dealt with the Trinity and what happened at that moment on the Cross and how it pertained to each and every one of us.

It seems, however, that Balthasar left quite the legacy, and his theology on Holy Saturday and the Descent into Hell is one subject which has garnered attention. Even George Weigel makes mention of the man in his book The Truth of Catholicism.

I suppose that is why I asked if anyone here has actually read Balthasar’s works as I would be interested in hearing your views.

But then again, this whole thread is about Christ’s Descent into Hell and it has been quite an interesting read for me as it is, with everyone freely offering their views.

In the end, I suppose, what you’ve read or how much doesn’t matter. As St. Paul said what good is knowledge without Love, so I appreciate hearing everyone’s take, regardless of “expertise” if you will.

God Bless,
 
Why would His Divine nature spend time there?
My understanding is that Jesus, both God and man, descended into the place where the just awaited the opening of the gates of heaven and he freed the souls there. He did not need to suffer more beyond his passion and death on Calvary, nor do I think he did. Only his body died, just as when we die it is only our body that dies. Our soul may go straight to heaven as when we die imediately upon receiving a plenary indulgence. Since Jesus had no sin there was no reason to go to limbo, purgatory, hell or whatever you want to call it, except to free the souls there, and I don’t think he could do that in his human nature alone. I firmly believe that Jesus, God and man, descended into hell to free the souls there merited by his death on the Cross. Unless someone can quote for me Church teaching to the contrary I will continue to believe this. Anyone?
 
The Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary have always been believed by the Catholic Church from the beginning. After all, the Angel Gabriel greeted Mary, “Full of Grace” she has to be Immaculate to be full of Grace. After the Protestant Reformation and many Christians were doubting them, the Holy Father explained them infallibly and defined them as a Dogma, meaning all Catholics have to believe them. Transubstantiation is the name given to the miracle that takes place during the consecration. Private revelations are not a part of Doctrine and Catholics are not binding to believe them. If it’s in the Bible, I don’t think it’s considered private revelation. Ask someone in the question and answer part of this forum. God Bless, Memaw
Excuse me, I said the “doctrine” of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption. “Some” believed and some did not believe from the beginning. It was not yet declared a doctrine of the Church. Until they became doctrines the faithful were not bound to believe them even if many did believe them. Some saints in the early Church did not believe them.

Full of grace does not necessarily mean that Mary was born immaculate. Many prophets in the Old Testament were filled with the Spirit of God. We only attribute that meaning to “full of grace” now that we know by Church declaration that Mary was born immaculate. Before that, it was a debatable matter and was contested among the early Church leaders and saints.
 
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