Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

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OK. I didn’t get the reference to Supreme Commander.

What I did understand is that it seems like House is trying to separate The Father and The Son. That’s why I was lumping the whole Holy Trinity as president/commander in chief.
I understand.

House is a former Catholic, so it is really important for him to argue vigorously against anything remotely suggesting that the Pope has real authority in the Church.

Because if Peter was the Royal Steward… :eek:
 
Yes to some Christians it means Christ was building His Church upon Peter’s confession that the rock was Christ the Savior and Son of God. But they might say you just can’t stop at chapter 16 and call it quits. Because then in Matthew 18:18 Christ was speaking to apostles other than solely to Peter. And he went on to give them binding and loosening power too which is what keys do.
But He didn’t change any of their names. The claim is made that the rock is Christ and the name change is ignored.
 
OK. I didn’t get the reference to Supreme Commander.

What I did understand is that it seems like House is trying to separate The Father and The Son. That’s why I was lumping the whole Holy Trinity as president/commander in chief.
They are separate persons, per the Athanasian Creed.
 
I understand.

House is a former Catholic, so it is really important for him to argue vigorously against anything remotely suggesting that the Pope has real authority in the Church.

Because if Peter was the Royal Steward… :eek:
Now you’re just making stuff up about me.
 
House’s arguments are the equivalent of “I know you are but what am I”. Just because you say it house doesn’t make it so.

No matter how you slice it…Lutheranism is not apostolic, is contrary to the faith of the apostolic church, contrary to orthodoxy, and you won’t convince us otherwise.

You can ignore history but don’t expect us to do the same.
House’s arguments are the equivalent of “I know you are but what am I”. Just because you say it house doesn’t make it so.
I am not the one making stuff up about other posters.
No matter how you slice it…Lutheranism is not apostolic, is contrary to the faith of the apostolic church, contrary to orthodoxy, and you won’t convince us otherwise
Where have I mentioned anything about Lutheranism in this thread? Now you’re just attacking for the sake of attacking.
You can ignore history but don’t expect us to do the same.
I wouldn’t want you to. In fact please don’t ignore church history. The more you learn the farther from Rome you will get.
 
As far as I am concerned, we need to ask St. Paul… especially at a extremely sensitive moment in calling out hypocrisy by Church leaders and at this point when human tempers are at a low!

Galatians 2 : 11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 * When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?*

Notice that St. Paul keeps Peter’s office (Cephas) intact.

MJ
 
You can’t just separate them, acting like they are totally different. You know what…just forget it. Back to St. Peter being vicar of Christ. :rolleyes:
I didn’t separate them I said they are one in substance, over and over.
 
Randy Carson is totally right on his references…I am studying at our local seminary the roots of the papacy. We just finished the early church hierarchy in context to Peter, after studying the Scriptural references to who holds the key as well as Protestant theologians who affirm the correct understanding by the Catholic Church as the head being the apostle Peter…the name in Greek and Aramaic referring to a person.

The Jewish believers of the first 100 years of Christianity knew very well what it meant for someone to be publicly recognized as having the key to authority as was presented in Isaiah 22:22.

And many protestant theologians…and unfortunately for me in comparison to Randy’s references I do not have the name of the most highly respected dictionary writer…who also affirmed with many Protestant theologians, as well as the meaning of Rock in Greek and Aramaic…it is ‘rock’ referring to the name of a person.

These Protestant theologians affirm with the Church the conviction that Peter is indeed the rock…Someone in class then asked if the Protestants all became Catholic and our instructor said ‘no’. I was rather expecting that response but here goes, do my best…

Peter is the head of the Church, the rock…and Christ is the Cornerstone. Peter is the most prominent of all the apostles. When Peter and John went to visit the tomb of the Resurrection, John stepped back to Peter could enter first.

There were already Nazarene Jews living in small faith communities who worshipped in homes that existed throughout Rome. Yet they were all united in contrast to the Churches of Antioch and Alexander, founded by the apostles, but having their local churches in one area.

After Paul’s conversion on the Road to Damascus, he first went to Peter to discuss with him his conversion, his understanding of Christ and faith…for 15 days. So in this, Paul already was recognizing Peter as head.

Both Peter and Paul went to Rome to establish the Church in Rome, and they did not go there for imperial reasons. When they arrived, they were immediately recognized as founders of the Church because Peter was direct witness to Christ, and Paul had his own particular witness in Christ.

When Paul confronts Peter later on, Paul invokes the Petrine authority…Peter responds saying Paul is correct…but as head.

Prior, Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Him, and then the Lord responded, ‘Feed my lambs, feed my sheep’ which also implies Peter’s martyrdom. Peter had a special relationship that was not duplicated in the other apostles.

The New Testament does not answer what happens to Peter after Acts 12…but in context of text and architecture…all points to Peter in Rome, where he died in 64 AD under Emperor Nero.

He is also in Rome when writing to the churches in Turkey and his son Mark assisted him in assisting in leadership. The first epistle of Peter was written in 63 AD, and the 2nd epistle, it is known that Peter’s native Greek speaker Sylus was his scribe as the style of writing is different. In his writing, Peter states he dictates to him he is residing ‘in your sister Church in Babylon who gives you greetings’…Babylon meaning Rome.

The greatest sign of founder, was both Peter and Paul’s deaths in Rome.

Was Peter first bishop of Rome? Yes and no.

In the no sense, there were already Christians in Rome. But Peter’s arrival made it a founding Church. Peter is put above bishop as bishops are successors to the apostles.

In the yes sense, the presence of Peter and Paul would not have the leadership the same as their apostolic presence which was incomparable to the other elders in Rome.

Likewise this does not indicate leadership, one of oversight of episcopal ministry over the Church of Rome…but, as Paul related, ‘I must be right because Peter said I was right in confronting him’, so to speak, Paul affirming Peter’s authority over him.

The first bishop of the Church always receives the blessing of the apostles

Regarding archaeological evidence, the burial site of Peter was built over by Constantine in 340 AD, a new church where tons of dirt were removed, and altar was built. In 1939 the pope ordered an excavation and what happened in this was a marble vault was exposed… a red wall complex…there was an area under a main altar, and within it was a small shrine declaring Peter there…still under investigation. So the Church is still processing if this site was the actual burial site of St.Peter, under the altar of St. Peter’s in Rome.

You go on and see references to Rome by future bishops and its prominence. Bishops always later upheld by the martyrdom of Peter there than any other point of his founding authority. During the following years, Rome had house churches headed by presbyters, and in 94 AD St. Clement referred to it formally as ‘the Church of Rome’. At the time of Peter’s death there were many synagogues in Rome, many Christian churches in homes, no central organization as in Antioch. Yet the Christians in Rome saw themselves as one Church.
 
As far as I am concerned, we need to ask St. Paul… especially at a extremely sensitive moment in calling out hypocrisy by Church leaders and at this point when human tempers are at a low!

Galatians 2 : 11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 * When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas* in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

Notice that St. Paul keeps Peter’s office (Cephas) intact.

MJ
:clapping:

Brilliant post, sir. I had not considered the timing of this before.

Paul uses the name given to Simon by Jesus - ROCK (Heb. kepha) - at the very moment when circumstances suggest that it would have been to Paul’s advantage to downplay Peter’s name and role in the Church. Instead, he honors Simon by recognizing his new name.

Moreover, Paul does this while confronting Peter - the incident which so many non-Catholics try to use against papal infallibility by suggesting that Peter was teaching error by his actions in drawing back from eating with the Gentiles out of fear of the Jewish visitors from Jerusalem. Yet, while Paul challenges Peter for his hypocritical actions, he nevertheless supports Peter’s role within the Church - as events at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 would later show.

Nicely done!
 
I understand.

House is a former Catholic, so it is really important for him to argue vigorously against anything remotely suggesting that the Pope has real authority in the Church.
Ad hominems are the recourse of those with weak arguments.
 
:clapping:

Brilliant post, sir. I had not considered the timing of this before.

Paul uses the name given to Simon by Jesus - ROCK (Heb. kepha) - at the very moment when circumstances suggest that it would have been to Paul’s advantage to downplay Peter’s name and role in the Church. Instead, he honors Simon by recognizing his new name.

Moreover, Paul does this while confronting Peter - the incident which so many non-Catholics try to use against papal infallibility by suggesting that Peter was teaching error by his actions in drawing back from eating with the Gentiles out of fear of the Jewish visitors from Jerusalem. Yet, while Paul challenges Peter for his hypocritical actions, he nevertheless supports Peter’s role within the Church - as events at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 would later show.

Nicely done!
Aw. Thanks Randy. :tiphat::highprayer:

MJ
 
:clapping:

Brilliant post, sir. I had not considered the timing of this before.

Paul uses the name given to Simon by Jesus - ROCK (Heb. kepha) - at the very moment when circumstances suggest that it would have been to Paul’s advantage to downplay Peter’s name and role in the Church. Instead, he honors Simon by recognizing his new name.

Moreover, Paul does this while confronting Peter - the incident which so many non-Catholics try to use against papal infallibility by suggesting that Peter was teaching error by his actions in drawing back from eating with the Gentiles out of fear of the Jewish visitors from Jerusalem. Yet, while Paul challenges Peter for his hypocritical actions, he nevertheless supports Peter’s role within the Church - as events at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 would** later** show.

Nicely done!
I have to correct myself here for I had the timing wrong.

The Council of Jerusalem was held *before *Paul’s confrontation with Peter in Antioch which made Peter’s actions all the more hypocritical since Peter had argued against circumcision at the Council.

Ironically, this actually works in favor of the Catholic view that Peter was the Rock of Mt. 16:18-19, since non-Catholics often argue that Peter could not be the rock in view of his denials of Christ which are decidedly non-rock-like.

In Galatians, we see that once again, Peter waffled by saying one thing and doing another - yet, Paul (at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) does not hesitate to call Simon, “Rock”.

Thus, the argument that “waffling” disqualifies Peter from being the rock of Matthew 16:18-19 is swept away.

:extrahappy:
 
Ad hominems are the recourse of those with weak arguments.
They often are.

However, there was no ad hominem. I simply explained the motivations for House’s position.

He is a non-practicing Catholic, and it is important to him to explain away the authority of the papacy in order to feel comfortable with his current church affiliation.
 
I have to correct myself here for I had the timing wrong.

The Council of Jerusalem was held *before *Paul’s confrontation with Peter in Antioch which made Peter’s actions all the more hypocritical since Peter had argued against circumcision at the Council.

Ironically, this actually works in favor of the Catholic view that Peter was the Rock of Mt. 16:18-19, since non-Catholics often argue that Peter could not be the rock in view of his denials of Christ which are decidedly non-rock-like.

In Galatians, we see that once again, Peter waffled by saying one thing and doing another - yet, Paul (at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) does not hesitate to call Simon, “Rock”.

Thus, the argument that “waffling” disqualifies Peter from being the rock of Matthew 16:18-19 is swept away.

:extrahappy:
👍

MJ
 
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