Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

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Alex_Swol said:
Please do not tell me that “I think” is a cop-out. Who are you?
I know all about the Holocaust and WW11 and Hitler. You are surmizing
things about me that I do not like. Enough.
When I have time, I may read the books you suggest. Any further
communication with you will be friendly and I will not accuse YOU of
anything if you do the same. Thank you.:(:confused:🤷
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Your post seemed to make an unsubstantiated accusation as if it was fact - and you said … enough said [as if a sort of challenge] … at least that was how it seems So I apologize for your hurt feelings - I did not mean to offend … merely if you only thought something was the reason for the controversy - then suggested to educate yourself …

Again I am sorry if I offended you … I merely took you at your word …

You said that Pius II was controversial due to
his [the Pope’s] lack of standing up
for the persecuted Jews and Poles. … I am of Italian descent and I can tell you that Mussolini and his ways were horrible. Pius X11 had to know what was going
on.
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That is presented as a factual statement as in the Pope did in deed fail to stand up for the Jewish and Polish People and he had to know what was happening …

qualified by …why he is controversial …
At least, I THINK that is …That is all I will say on the subject.
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If you know about WWII then you should know that the Pope and the Church through the priests and nuns saved many Jews and Poles … For others less knowledgeable in addition to the article and books suggested in the earlier post -

Consider this If Pius II knew what Mussolini and Hitler was doing to destroy Jews and Poles -as Alex has pointed out … Is it also true that Pius II ALSO KNEW what Monsignor Hugh O’Flaherty and Archbishop Ferrofino [who says most of the credit belongs to Pius II] were doing in Rome and Italy to save 1,000s of Jews and others from being persecuted by the Nazi’s? What of Saint Father Maximilian Maria Kolbe and Blessed Father Bernhard Lichtenberg - to name just a few.
 
[BYada,
I am aware of what Monsignor O’Flaherty did. BTW, did you know that a movie
was made about him? It is called THE SCARLET AND THE BLACK. You may
want to watch it. Often on our Catholic channel.
I am also aware of the many Jews and Poles that Italian families helped to save.
I do not know if any of my relatives were responsible for this, but I would be
proud if they were.
I accept your apology. No need to discuss it further.
BTW-----I am a history buff. I love it. Unfortunetly, when I was in
grammar and high school, much of the history of WW11 was still
being written. I started grammar school in 1947, so much of the
history was still being learned. I am proud to say that my Uncles
and cousins fought and survived. I did loose a brother-in-law
to the Germans. He was only 19 and an aspiring schholar
who had a scholrship waiting for him at the UofR. Such is
the way of war.;):)]:):)🙂
 
Randy,
Thank you for all your information. I will definetly look at the book the next time
I am at Barnes and Noble. Being a history buff, I am sure I will enjoy it.
Your knowledge is amazing. You remind me of my cousin Alan. He can
quote scripture and he knows every page of the Old and New testament.
He was raised Methodist and now goes to the Baptist church.
I am of the opinion that in my day-----and it was a long time ago-----one
was not taught to read the Bible. I was taught to recite the 10COMMANDMENTS, to
know how to say the ROSARY and to go to MASS at 9:00 a m every Sunday so you
would not come under Fr. Mason’s scurge. He was a tyrant and Pastor of St. Ambrose
in Irondequoit, N.Y.
Keep in touch.
Alex (Female)👍:)😃
 
Alex_Swol said:
Randy,
Thank you for all your information. I will definetly look at the book the next time
I am at Barnes and Noble. Being a history buff, I am sure I will enjoy it.
Your knowledge is amazing. You remind me of my cousin Alan. He can
quote scripture and he knows every page of the Old and New testament.
He was raised Methodist and now goes to the Baptist church.
I am of the opinion that in my day-----and it was a long time ago-----one
was not taught to read the Bible. I was taught to recite the 10COMMANDMENTS, to
know how to say the ROSARY and to go to MASS at 9:00 a m every Sunday so you
would not come under Fr. Mason’s scurge. He was a tyrant and Pastor of St. Ambrose
in Irondequoit, N.Y.
Keep in touch.
Alex (Female)👍:)😃
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Alex-

There was a time when I read the NT once every four weeks…but I have not done that for many years. Just take a couple of chapters a day…some are longer, some are shorter, but you can work your way through it in no time at all!

Randy
 
Alex_Swol said:
Steve,
I do not ever remember being taught about Peter being made
the head of the Church. When I went to Catholic grammar school
they did not teach much about the Pope / Popes. At the time,
Pope Pius the twelvth was on board. As we now know, he has
become somewhat controversial due to his lack of standing up
for the persecuted Jews and Poles. At least, I THINK that is
what it is about.
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Did grammar school end your Catholic education?
AS:
I am of Italian descent and I can tell you that Mussolini and
his ways were horrible. Pius X11 had to know what was going
on. That is all I will say on the subject.
Now, as for Peter. He is always portrayed as the older of
the Apostles. The “Papa” if you will. I can understand why
Jesus would entrust him with the founding of the CHURCH.
BUT, was it the CATHOLIC CHURCH? If you wore a FISH
you were a CHRISTIAN. Now tell me when the ROMAN
CATHOLIC CHURCH came into being?
I have given you enough to answer. Have a great weekend. A:)👍
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Check out this article on Pius XII. Notice in particular, Rabbi Zolli’s story catholic.com/documents/how-pius-xii-protected-jews

Re: Peter, Peter didn’t found the Church. Jesus put Peter in charge of the Church Jesus established and gave all His promises to it… That’s NOT my opinion. #812, #660 , 😉

Re: “Roman” Catholic Church, Roman Catholic

Re: Catholic Church #34
 
[Hi Clem,
I will remember your comments when I go to Barnes and Noble to look for
the book.
I am also going to ask if there may be any other books about this Pope.
Thank you for your comment.SIZE=“6”]:);):confused:
 
Alex_Swol said:
[Hi Clem,
I will remember your comments when I go to Barnes and Noble to look for
the book.
I am also going to ask if there may be any other books about this Pope.
Thank you for your comment.SIZE=“6”]:);):confused:
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It is exhaustively researched.
Christ’s’ enemies never seem to sleep. It is amazing how such deceptions became accepted as fact in the popular consciousness. I even have Catholic friends who beat their breasts over the imagined evils that Pope Pius perpetrated. He in fact used the Vatican to protect Jews during the war.
 
Tomyris said:
Well, that is what a lot of Protestants believe, but since it probably is of no interest to anyone around here, I will just let this little thread die a lonely,miserable death. Sigh.
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“Little”??? Only about 903 posts ! ! ! 😃 :confused: :rolleyes:
 
clem456 said:
It is exhaustively researched.
Christ’s’ enemies never seem to sleep. It is amazing how such deceptions became accepted as fact in the popular consciousness. I even have Catholic friends who beat their breasts over the imagined evils that Pope Pius perpetrated. He in fact used the Vatican to protect Jews during the war.
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I seem to recollect a WWII statistic that there were more Catholics killed from Peter’s Church than there were Jews killed. The difference is the Jews were killed for being Jews. The Catholics were killed for protesting and protecting the killing of Jews. Yet somehow all this get’s missed, but God knows all.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
I seem to recollect a WWII statistic that there were more Catholics killed from Peter’s Church than there were Jews killed. The difference is the Jews were killed for being Jews. The Catholics were killed for protesting and protecting the killing of Jews. Yet somehow all this get’s missed, but God knows all.
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The Nazis were equal opportunity murderers. Catholics were killed simply because they were believers organized in a Church. Organized belief stood in the way of Nazi goals. Thousands of priests were murdered.
One of the points Rychlak makes in his book is that for every dissenting voice against the Nazis, innocent people were guaranteed to die in retribution. Proclamations by the Vatican against Hitler served no purpose other than to cause the deaths of innocents.
Anyway, a subject for another thread.

Another good book that debunks the myth of Nazi “Christianity” is “The Zookeepers Wife”.
 
=Tomyris;12445171]Well, that is what a lot of Protestants believe, but since it probably is of no interest to anyone around here, I will just let this little thread die a lonely,miserable death. Sigh.
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My friend, ASK for and insist on OBJECTIVE evidence.

If not Peter who?

How could the Church [notably singular as MY CHURCH in Mt. 16:18] live for 2,000 years and still growing?

This desire to disprove both history and the bible is necessary to justify their own faith beliefs which always deny:
One God
with only One set of Faith beliefs
and One Church

Eph.4"1-7 NOTICE PLEASE THE CONSTANT USE OF “ONE”
1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ"

God Bless you,
Patrick YOU,
pATRICK
 
If he didn’t, he did take up the role of leadership pretty well!
Then who did he select? No one? If he didn’t, Christianity would of probably been wiped out as a superstisious sect the first few years by the Romans, don’t you think?

Just my :twocents:
 
[To all who are posting:
It would seem I have a lot to learn about the Catholic Church and WW11. Much of
the history of the war was still being written when I went to grammar and high school
in the late 50’s. The St. Joseph teaching nuns were not teaching anything about
Pope PiusXII and not one word about the persecution of the Jews.
Perhaps all this is for another thread.
I am very appreciative of all the information I am receiving and also the many
suggestions about books to read.
Thank you, all.:)SIZE=“6”]
 
Alex_Swol said:
[To all who are posting:
It would seem I have a lot to learn about the Catholic Church and WW11. Much of
the history of the war was still being written when I went to grammar and high school
in the late 50’s. The St. Joseph teaching nuns were not teaching anything about
Pope PiusXII and not one word about the persecution of the Jews.
Perhaps all this is for another thread.
I am very appreciative of all the information I am receiving and also the many
suggestions about books to read.
Thank you, all.:)SIZE=“6”]

We also have to acknowledge, WWII ended in 1945. Pius II quietly but actively saving Jews during the war was successful precisely because it was done secretly. This wasn’t a polemic issue in the 50’s. But Jews knew what Pius XII did for them. A defense for him doesn’t need defending till attacked. And the attack came later, as did the truth that Pius XII was a hero. Rabbii Zolli of Rome, converted to Catholicism because of Pius XII’s efforts to save Jews during the war… even taking the Pope’s name. Zolli’s family also converted
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/pius.html
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I knew about the Jewish family and I know some of the German officers also
converted. Thanks for the update.:)🙂
 
oremosjuntos said:
If he didn’t, he did take up the role of leadership pretty well!
Then who did he select? No one? If he didn’t, Christianity would of probably been wiped out as a superstisious sect the first few years by the Romans, don’t you think?

Just my :twocents:
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No, don’t think that at all. The Lord did select the twelve, then St. Paul. St. Peter was definitely a leader, first amongst equals.
 
PJM said:
[How could the Church [notably singular as MY CHURCH in Mt. 16:18] live for 2,000 years and still growing?
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Same way the Church survived, even grew, before full evolution of Petrine Chair , and during and with 1000 years of Orthodoxy and 500 years of Protestantism. All members of One Body.
 
PJM said:
My friend, ASK for and insist on OBJECTIVE evidence.

If not Peter who?

How could the Church [notably singular as MY CHURCH in Mt. 16:18] live for 2,000 years and still growing?

This desire to disprove both history and the bible is necessary to justify their own faith beliefs which always deny:
One God
with only One set of Faith beliefs
and One Church

Eph.4"1-7 NOTICE PLEASE THE CONSTANT USE OF “ONE”
1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. [7] But to every one of us is given grace, according to the measure of the giving of Christ"

God Bless you,
Patrick YOU,
pATRICK
Click to expand...
Do you see the logical fallacy here?
  1. The Church has survived for 2000 years.
  2. Therefore the papacy is correct.
You will note that Paul discussed in Ephesians apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers and pastors in describing the offices. How forgetful that he left out the pope! Or perhaps he did not believe in the papacy as modern Catholics envision it? He was talking about church structure, and the Pope did not come up! Why? Because it was a concept that only developed later is one explanation. You will probably maintain that the papacy is within the apostles, so it didn’t need a separate mention, but I would respond that that is an extreme stretch of the imagination. In fact, everywhere where there was a golden opportunity to talk about the papacy, the opportunity was missed.

Think about that. Consider that of the four Gospels, only one bothers to mention the whole rock~Peter thing that Catholics seek to get so much mileage out of. It simply isn’t that important.
 
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