Christ in the OT

[dje101]

As a protestant, I’ve heard many people and Pastors say that anytime in the OT when scripture says “the angel of the Lord”, this is possibly Christ.

Gen 16:7The angel of the LORD. Since the angel of the Lord speaks for God in the first person (v.10) and Hagar is said to name "the Lord who spoke to her: ‘You are the God who sees me’ " (v.13) the angel appears to be both distinguished from the Lord (in that he is called “messenger” - the Hebrew for “angel” means “messenger”) and identified with him. Similar distinction and identification can be found in 19:1, 21; 31:11, 13; Ex 3:2,4; Jdg 2:1-5; 6:11-12, 14; 13:3, 6, 8-1, 13, 15-17, 20-23; Zec 3:1-6; 12:8. Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this “angel” was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God’s Messenger-Servant. It may be, however, that, as the Lord’s personal messenger who represented him and bore his credential, the angel could speak on behalf of (and so be identified with) the One who sent him (see especially 19:21; cf. 18:2, 22; 19:2). Whether this “angel” was the second person of the Trinity remains therefore uncertain. NIV Study Bible

Now, coming from a Protestant Bible, I don’t know if this “traditional Christian interpretation” means “Protestant interpretation” or simply a real traditional Christian teaching dating back to the early church.

I was wondering what everyone thought because, if the Catholic Church teaches that the angel was in fact an angel and NOT Christ, then there would be scripture to back up praying to the angels in Gen 48:16-17 where Jacob asks an angel to bless Joseph’s sons.

Thanks everyone for your anticipated response!!!
God Bless!

 

[I_love_rocks]

I think that when its the Lord, its the Lord. And when its angels of the Lord, then its angels of the Lord. All under the guise of the wording of “man’, “man like the son of God”, “an angel of the Lord”, etc. We can tell from the context.
The pre-incarnate Jesus comes to Jacob and Jacob wrestles with Him - 'the angel of the Lord”. He puts out Jacob’s hip and changes his name to Israel - which I was told translates: “He who wrestled with the Lord, and lived”. If the angel of the Lord were truly just an angel and not God, Israel’s name would not be He who wrestled with God…
When the “three men” came upon Abraham on their way to Sodom and Gomorrah, they were initially identified as three men, but in the following verses, the Lord, (the pre-incarnate Christ, the Living Word of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, Jesus) is distinguished from the two angels who accompany HIm. The angels go on ahead to meet Lot, and the Lord stays behind for Abraham to intercede with Him regarding the number of righteous men to be found in the city… 'forgive me, Lord, but if there were five less than that… if there were only x amount of righteous men, would You spare the city?.."
I love the Word of God. Praise be to Him forever!

 

[Barbkw]

Perhaps a correction will help to clarify the problem.

We don’t pray TO angels, to Mary, or to the saints - we pray through them.

We don’t have to, we can go directly to Jesus - but we sometimes do this because we feel we are in communion with them. They are family. We are Christian, one body in Christ.

In our belief system, the communion of saints include multiple levels of Christians:

those here on Earth - we ask living people to pray for us to our Almighty God
those with God the Father & God the Son - we ask these living souls, Mary, the angels to join us in praying for our intentions

In Catholic belief systems, souls and saints are interactive with the living.

Generally speaking, in Protestant belief systems, the souls of the departed are “sleeping” and awaiting the second coming of Christ.

 

[_L]

As a protestant, I’ve heard many people and Pastors say that anytime in the OT when scripture says “the angel of the Lord”, this is possibly Christ.

Now, coming from a Protestant Bible, I don’t know if this “traditional Christian interpretation” means “Protestant interpretation” or simply a real traditional Christian teaching dating back to the early church.

I was wondering what everyone thought because, if the Catholic Church teaches that the angel was in fact an angel and NOT Christ, then there would be scripture to back up praying to the angels in Gen 48:16-17 where Jacob asks an angel to bless Joseph’s sons.

Thanks everyone for your anticipated response!!!
God Bless!

“The angel of the Lord” is certainly a very intriguing and perplexing topic and I have seen various interpretations of this figure. As far as I know the Church has never formally defined who or what the Angel of the Lord is, in fact the Church usually refrains from issuing one sole concrete interpretation of a particular scripture passage, because one of the beauties of scripture is its complexity and potential for multiple meanings and significances rather than just one meaning. But if we go back to traditional Christian/Catholic interpretation, we can go back to the Church fathers where Justin Martyr,and St. Augustine all identified the Angel of the Lord with the The Son/2nd person of the trinity who of course was not Jesus yet seeing as He had not become man at that point in time.

Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, “He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me.” (Chapter LXIII.)

• Justin Martyr’s First Apology circa 155 AD

“The Angel of the Lord shall send round about them that fear Him, and shall deliver them.” Whom called He here the Angel of the Lord, who shall send round about them that fear Him, and shall deliver them? Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is called in Prophecy, the Angel of the great Counsel, the Messenger of the great Counsel; so the Prophets called Him. Even He then, the Angel of the great Counsel, that is, the Messenger, shall send unto them that fear the Lord, and shall deliver them. Fear not then lest thou be hid: wheresoever thou hast feared the Lord, there doth that Angel know thee, who shall send to succour thee, and shall deliver thee. (Paragraph 10.)

• St. Augustine’s exposition of Psalm 34

Take that for what its worth, but I have heard other interpretations such as the Angel of the Lord being a representation of God the father in the representation of an angel because no one can look upon the face of the Lord and live. This was held by many protestants during the reformation or so I’ve heard. And I’ve noticed a split between jews where some seem to agree it is a representation of God, while others think its just its own thing separate from God, or just an unnamed angel.

 

[Barbkw]

usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis16.htm#foot2

2 The LORD’S messenger found her by a spring in the wilderness, the spring on the road to Shur, and he asked, “Hagar, maid of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?” She answered, “I am running away from my mistress, Sarai.”

But the LORD’S messenger told her: "Go back to your mistress and submit to her abusive treatment.

I will make your descendants so numerous," added the LORD’S messenger, "that they will be too many to count.

3 Besides," the LORD’S messenger said to her: "You are now pregnant and shall bear a son; you shall name him Ishmael, For the LORD has heard you, God has answered you.

He shall be a wild *** of a man, his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; In opposition to all his kin shall he encamp."

2 [7] The LORD’S messenger: a manifestation of God in human form; therefore in Genesis 16:13 the messenger is identified with the Lord himself.

3 [11] Ishmael: in Hebrew the name means “God has heard.”

 

[dje101]

Perhaps a correction will help to clarify the problem.

We don’t pray TO angels, to Mary, or to the saints - we pray through them.

We don’t have to, we can go directly to Jesus - but we sometimes do this because we feel we are in communion with them. They are family. We are Christian, one body in Christ.

In our belief system, the communion of saints include multiple levels of Christians:

those here on Earth - we ask living people to pray for us to our Almighty God
those with God the Father & God the Son - we ask these living souls, Mary, the angels to join us in praying for our intentions

In Catholic belief systems, souls and saints are interactive with the living.

Generally speaking, in Protestant belief systems, the souls of the departed are “sleeping” and awaiting the second coming of Christ.

Well, look at the prayer of St. Michael the Archangel. It is a prayer to him. The rosary is a prayer to Mary. But, all prayers are done with full knowledge that, even if said angel or saint were to answer the prayers, it is only because they have done their intercession on our behalf with the Lord and we have only received what we asked for because it is God’s will and power.

 

[Barbkw]

Well, look at the prayer of St. Michael the Archangel. It is a prayer to him. The rosary is a prayer to Mary. But, all prayers are done with full knowledge that, even if said angel or saint were to answer the prayers, it is only because they have done their intercession on our behalf with the Lord and we have only received what we asked for because it is God’s will and power.

No, the Rosary is not a prayer to Mary. It is a meditation on the Gospels - on Christ’s life as seen through the eyes of His Mother.

The Hail Mary itself consists of two quotes from Sacred Scripture and in that prayer we ask that Mary pray for our soul at the time of our death.

For instance, in the Joyful Mysteries of Christ (using the Scriptural Rosary format) :

1. The Angel Gabriel was sent from God… to a virgin betrothed to a man, named
   Joseph, of the House of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. (Lk. 1:26)
   Hail Mary…

1. The angel said to her: Rejoice 0 highly favoured daughter! The Lord is with you.
   Blessed are you among women. (Lk.1:28)
   Hail Mary…

3 She was deeply troubled by his words, and wondered what his greeting meant.(Lk. 1:29)
Hail Mary…

1. The angel said to her: Do not fear, Mary. You have found favor with God. (Lk. 1:30)
   Hail Mary…

1. You shall conceive and bear a Son and give Him the name of Jesus. (Lk. 1:31)
   Hail Mary…

1. Great will be His dignity and He will be called Son of the Most High. And His reign
   will be without end .(Lk. 1:32-33)
   Hail Mary…

1. Mary said to the angel, How can this be since I do not know man?(Lk. 1:34)
   Hail Mary…

1. The angel answered her: The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the
   Most High will over-shadow you.(Lk. 1:35)
   Hail Mary…

1. The holy offspring to be born will be called Son of God. (Lk. 1:35)
   Hail Mary…

1. Mary said: I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me as you say. With that
   the angel left her.(Lk. 1:38)
   Hail Mary…

 

[valentino]

dje101: “the angel of the Lord declared unto Mary’ the angel was Gabriel.I don’t agree that"traditional,Servant”.The angel doesn’t represent Christ,he’s a messenger tor the Lord.The angel is not the 2nd person of the trinity,Christ the Son is.

 

[Barbkw]

But, all prayers are done with full knowledge that, even if said angel or saint were to answer the prayers, it is only because they have done their intercession on our behalf with the Lord and we have only received what we asked for because it is God’s will and power.

I’d restructure these sentances, “angel or saint were to answer the prayers…only because they have done their intercession on our behalf …”.

But yes, I agree with with what you wrote here, “…we have only received what we asked for because it is God’s will and power.”

Prayer isn’t about hitting up all the right saints and God isn’t a slot machine.

 

[Barbkw]

You mentioned the prayer to St. Michael:

Some history on that:

catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/prayers/view.cfm?id=869

Prayer to St. Michael, the Archangel

This prayer was composed by Pope Leo XIII. He wrote it after experiencing a vision that showed the battle between between the Church and Satan. In 1886, this prayer and the Hail Holy Queen (Salve Regina) were to be recited at the end of the “low” Mass (“low” meaning the Mass that was spoken, with no music, compared to the “high”, or sung Masses). This practice was discontinued around 1970.

In April 1994, during the International Year of the Family, Pope John Paul II during his Regina Coeli message asked all Catholics to pray this prayer daily. We invoke the help of St. Michael in our struggle against Satan and sin.

The prayer itself:

Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle.
Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.

Michael has been with the Trinity since the beginning of time. He’s a Christian. He’s a warrier. He protects us as messenger to God. He is family. It’s a prayer of thanks to him. It’s our acknowledgment that we “see through a glass darkly” and we don’t know what’s truely going on in the fight “good verses evil”.

 

[dje101]

Ok, people. I’m sorry, but this is getting a little off topic with the latest discussion of praying to the saints and/or angels. Please don’t think that I’m trying to avoid the question, I really don’t have a problem with the communion of the saints. If you would like to continue the discussion of whether we are praying TO the saints or praying THROUGH the saints, check out my other thread(s) where I have asked these questions. I would LOVE to have more discussion on the topic.

Getting back to the topic at hand, what do you think about my quote from the NIV study bible that says that “christian tradition has interpreted this to be the preincarnate Christ”?

I had been heard from some pastors that when it says “an angel of the Lord…” then it was literally an angel, but when it says “the angel of the Lord…”, then this was the preincarnate Christ. Thoughts?