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TheReYUI
Guest
Is Christ present in the tabernacle before the words of consecration of the Eucharist?
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otjm
Guest
That depends on whether or not the Eucharist, confected at a previous Mass, is stored there.
That is also one of the reason that have been given in the past (say the last 40+ years) for moving the tabernacle out of the sanctuary; as the central part of the Mass is the consecration; and having the Eucharist present in the sanctuary causes a disjointed focus.
People presume that churches have always had tabernacles; but if I recall the history of them, not so; they did not appear to be used until somewhere around the 9th or 10th century; and in Europe, many of the cathedrals have (and have had back to ancient history) the tabernacle off to the side, often in a partial room.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
If you see that the candle by the tabernacle is lit, then yes, the Blessed Sacrament is there. If it is not lit – as on Good Friday – then the Blessed Sacrament is not reserved there.
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CaptFun
Guest
I’ll have to explain my comments in the next post. But thanks otjm and TheREYUI.That depends on whether or not the Eucharist, confected at a previous Mass, is stored there. <(and it almost always is).
That is also one of the reason that have been given in the past (say the last 40+ years) for moving the tabernacle out of the sanctuary;sad_yes:
) as the central part of the Mass is the consecration; ( :yup:
People presume that churches have always had tabernacles; but if I recall the history of them, not so; they did not appear to be used until somewhere around the 9th or 10th century; and in Europe, many of the cathedrals have (and have had back to ancient history) the tabernacle off to the side, often in a partial room.
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CaptFun
Guest
“O Sacrament most Holy, O Sacrament Divine … all praise and all Thanksgiving be every moment thine!”
holyhillcross.com/stations%20of%20the%20eucharist.htm
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSu75UBcQiexvqrmaHM-5YA4wp5gE4-Mmvp6QkRpxmK1bdNG9Aj_g
experienceproject.com/stories/Love-Saints/1597079 < The story of St. Tarcisius, martyr of the Eucharist. Wherever the tabernacle may be – may we always honor Jesus in the Eucharist as this little boy did.
PER - Tabernacles moved to correct a perceived "Disjointed Focus"and/or “taking away from” the “action of the altar” (consecration of the Eucharist at Mass)
Consider:
TRUE - there was no tabernacle at the last supper (unless we count Jesus’ body) - and the Eucharist that night was probably all consumed … though scripture technically doesn’t say.
"CAUSES A DISJOINTED FOCUS’ ?? – I HAVE heard that “explanation” for what was done. There has got to be better than that. After all, “God is Everywhere” … yet Jesus becomes incarnate …
:bigyikes: - Does the “disjointed focus” idea get Caiaphas off the hook for not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah? That’d be an example of it. God in Heaven OR Here? < (both, no problem for God!).
The whole concept of the Trinity might be described as “confusing” too (we’ve kept the teaching - though our focus may move from Jesus to the Father to the Holy Spirit).
Then there’s the last supper itself … OK, no tabernacle … but Jesus is there (in His Body) and then says “THIS is my body …” and no one there debated Him that both couldn’t be true. Or “You … you’re disjointing my focus here …!!”
Add to this that many Catholic Churches still have the tabernacle “front and center” with all of the advantages to that*. Are such unredesigned Churches defective due to the “disjointed focus” factor? No.
When this practice of moving the tabernacles first started taking place it bothered me. I spoke to a priest (Monsignor actually) about it … and he explained it in about the way you did here … except using the words “confusing duality” and the possibility that that aspect detracted from the “action of the altar”.
I’m glad he tried to explain it. He did so with some difficulty as I remember, as if he might have had some qualms about the “new thing” himself (though he dutifully tried to explain the change to a confused sheep anyway - to his credit).
He added some of what you included above otjm, that there hadn’t always been tabernacles, etc.; then added that placement of the tabernacles as they’d been to that time was an instruction of a latter day Pope (I can’t remember which one … have to look this up).
My impression THEN was … “Pope’s teach truly!” And that this seemed to be concerning faith … if not morals … so that, maybe the placement was more important than was being considered by the “furniture movers” and architects of new churches.
“Don’t let it bother you …” he told me. And with that counsel I decided “True … keep your eyes on Jesus rather than a controversy.” And have worshipped in Churches where tabernacles are centered, off to the side, BEHIND … and “gosh knows where!”
I am still more comfortable with the tabernacle front and center, and the central point of focus in the church from the time one enters it. When I enter such a Church I can bless myself, genuflect looking directly at the holy place where Our Lord is reserved, and STILL await the Consecration and my Communion without a problem. In FACT, I worship better in that atmosphere.
During the “Holy, Holy, Holy …” I find it proper to look at the Tabernacle so as to address
the person I’m saying it to. This used to be quite easy. Now … where is the tabernacle (?) (NOT that I forgot “God is everywhere …” but that looking elsewhere at that time doesn’t seem as good). With all due respect to the other people, the artwork, the “Bishop’s Chair” or whatever I look at INSTEAD of the tabernacle and the Eucharist at that time. It’s nice to address Eucharistic Jesus as KING (Holy, Holy, Holy recounts heavenly worship with the LORD on a throne and Angels about Him) at that time without having to turn around or radically to the side.
The altar is a holy place. When it is in the same general direction as the tabernacle the priest’s bowing is less misunderstood. Bowing to an altar (where Jesus “will be” while not bowing or genuflecting toward the Eucharist MORE seems to me to be … an error of some sort).
Theoretical question: If Pope Francis directed all Catholic Churches to place tabernacles “front and center” in every Church … would anyone have a problem with that?
In the US I thought perhaps this was some sort of Ecumenism to make converting Protestants and Evangelicals feel more culturally at home in the Church. Along the lines of the other changes: Communion rails, bells rung at Elevation, frequent use of incense,
mass in the common vernacular, integration of approved “Protestant/Evangelical” songs,
priest facing the congregation (instead of facing the altar and tabernacle throughout the mass - back to the people).
holyhillcross.com/stations%20of%20the%20eucharist.htm
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSu75UBcQiexvqrmaHM-5YA4wp5gE4-Mmvp6QkRpxmK1bdNG9Aj_g
experienceproject.com/stories/Love-Saints/1597079 < The story of St. Tarcisius, martyr of the Eucharist. Wherever the tabernacle may be – may we always honor Jesus in the Eucharist as this little boy did.
PER - Tabernacles moved to correct a perceived "Disjointed Focus"and/or “taking away from” the “action of the altar” (consecration of the Eucharist at Mass)
Consider:
TRUE - there was no tabernacle at the last supper (unless we count Jesus’ body) - and the Eucharist that night was probably all consumed … though scripture technically doesn’t say.
"CAUSES A DISJOINTED FOCUS’ ?? – I HAVE heard that “explanation” for what was done. There has got to be better than that. After all, “God is Everywhere” … yet Jesus becomes incarnate …
:bigyikes: - Does the “disjointed focus” idea get Caiaphas off the hook for not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah? That’d be an example of it. God in Heaven OR Here? < (both, no problem for God!).
The whole concept of the Trinity might be described as “confusing” too (we’ve kept the teaching - though our focus may move from Jesus to the Father to the Holy Spirit).
Then there’s the last supper itself … OK, no tabernacle … but Jesus is there (in His Body) and then says “THIS is my body …” and no one there debated Him that both couldn’t be true. Or “You … you’re disjointing my focus here …!!”
Add to this that many Catholic Churches still have the tabernacle “front and center” with all of the advantages to that*. Are such unredesigned Churches defective due to the “disjointed focus” factor? No.
When this practice of moving the tabernacles first started taking place it bothered me. I spoke to a priest (Monsignor actually) about it … and he explained it in about the way you did here … except using the words “confusing duality” and the possibility that that aspect detracted from the “action of the altar”.
I’m glad he tried to explain it. He did so with some difficulty as I remember, as if he might have had some qualms about the “new thing” himself (though he dutifully tried to explain the change to a confused sheep anyway - to his credit).
He added some of what you included above otjm, that there hadn’t always been tabernacles, etc.; then added that placement of the tabernacles as they’d been to that time was an instruction of a latter day Pope (I can’t remember which one … have to look this up).
My impression THEN was … “Pope’s teach truly!” And that this seemed to be concerning faith … if not morals … so that, maybe the placement was more important than was being considered by the “furniture movers” and architects of new churches.
“Don’t let it bother you …” he told me. And with that counsel I decided “True … keep your eyes on Jesus rather than a controversy.” And have worshipped in Churches where tabernacles are centered, off to the side, BEHIND … and “gosh knows where!”
I am still more comfortable with the tabernacle front and center, and the central point of focus in the church from the time one enters it. When I enter such a Church I can bless myself, genuflect looking directly at the holy place where Our Lord is reserved, and STILL await the Consecration and my Communion without a problem. In FACT, I worship better in that atmosphere.
During the “Holy, Holy, Holy …” I find it proper to look at the Tabernacle so as to address
the person I’m saying it to. This used to be quite easy. Now … where is the tabernacle (?) (NOT that I forgot “God is everywhere …” but that looking elsewhere at that time doesn’t seem as good). With all due respect to the other people, the artwork, the “Bishop’s Chair” or whatever I look at INSTEAD of the tabernacle and the Eucharist at that time. It’s nice to address Eucharistic Jesus as KING (Holy, Holy, Holy recounts heavenly worship with the LORD on a throne and Angels about Him) at that time without having to turn around or radically to the side.
The altar is a holy place. When it is in the same general direction as the tabernacle the priest’s bowing is less misunderstood. Bowing to an altar (where Jesus “will be” while not bowing or genuflecting toward the Eucharist MORE seems to me to be … an error of some sort).
Theoretical question: If Pope Francis directed all Catholic Churches to place tabernacles “front and center” in every Church … would anyone have a problem with that?
In the US I thought perhaps this was some sort of Ecumenism to make converting Protestants and Evangelicals feel more culturally at home in the Church. Along the lines of the other changes: Communion rails, bells rung at Elevation, frequent use of incense,
mass in the common vernacular, integration of approved “Protestant/Evangelical” songs,
priest facing the congregation (instead of facing the altar and tabernacle throughout the mass - back to the people).
- Lost can be the emphasis of the Eucharist as the focus of our entire faith (because “it” is Christ Himself … and the necessary sacrament for keeping the New Covenant He proclaimed on the night He instituted the New Covenant and the Sacrament at the same time.
- The Eucharist was also reserved at a very early time in Church History too (though hiding in catecombs and having to switch regular meeting places probably precluded tabernacles as we know them … since they might not have always had regular church buildings. One of the Church’s youngest martyrs, St. Tarcisius was martyred protecting the Eucharist (while transporting it in ancient Rome). So reverence for this Sacrament (and Christ) is quite important.
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otjm
Guest
What is the phrase - “I don’t have a dog in this fight…”
Our cathedral has a room off to the side;depending on where you are sitting, you may or may not be able to see the tabernacle.
My parish is in the half round. For a long time, the tabernacle was in the chapel. And for over 15 years we have had 24/7/363 Perpetual Adoration (I note, so you don’t think we are just some set of goof balls doing whatever). Because of agitation by some parishoners, starting several years ago, a tabernacle was set in in the main body of the church but off to one side of the main axis; the presider’s chair was on the main axis.
New pastor, and he has moved the chair off to one side, and the tabernacle is now on the main axis.
I am no Canon lawyer, but I think there is a rule that there is to be only one tabernacle in a church. No, I am not going to go run to the bishop and kick up dust. It is simply not my issue.
Do I have a preference? If I did, I would keep it to myself, as I feel there are far, far more important issues for our parish to deal with than where the tabernacle is, or how many we have.
I participated in Eucharistic Adoration for years (my job now makes that difficult at best). Before, when the tabernacle was in the chapel, I had no problem going into the main part of the church and praying before Mass. and if I wanted to pray before the Blessed Sacrament, I had no problem going to the chapel. In other words, it was a non-issue. That is not to say that other parishes may not have an issue. I simply didn’t.
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CaptFun
Guest
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Of course our focus should be on Jesus and not peripherals.
In some aspects Cathedrals are an exception to the rule I think. Many people (including non-Catholics) want to come into places like Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris - and I didn’t include the explanation for why such places sometimes have Eucharistic Chapels and altars to the side out of reverence (the rationale anyway) so that the main body of the Church would be more available to visitors without profaning a sanctuary.
It can give one a bit of a dizzy spell sorting it out.
Per your pastor … that’s how I’d feel if I were him. I’d be very uncomfortable with MY chair as the central focus and the tabernacle off to the side or LOWER than the “presider’s chair”.
I think the idea of “in the Church” gets fuzzy too … does it mean “under the same roof” or “sanctuary visible and identifyable”? Is a tabernacle in the main body of the Church and another in a designated “chapel” within bounds?
My main thing is recognition of the Eucharist (and when this is in “the tabernacle” the tabernacle outranks chairs, artwork, baptismal font and even the altar - except at that time that the Eucharist is ON the altar and closer to the people (visible, and community worshipped during Mass).
I don’t think of it as a fight really. I do think there have been some unfortunate side-effects to the moving of tabernacles from central point of focus to something not so much.
It is also good to talk about this so that the Eucharist is not forgotten. Which is easy to do sometimes as Our Lord comes in such a humble way that each genuflection, kneeling, ringing of bells and elevation that proclaims Him as Our King is important as a reminder.
It is true too that after receiving communion, we believers become tabernacles.
Our Lord once summarized the law and the prophets by citing the two great commandments (Love God, love neighbor). We all fall short of each ideal, but neither the ideals nor the Eucharist should be taken lightly, however slight the demotion (IMO).
This might be a weakness on my part. And probably is.
I’m rather glad you have a different (but not hostile) take on the matter than I do, otjm. It’ll cause me to reflect more, emote less, and probably adjust for the better. Thank you.
*As I was signing this off, I looked for a photo of a front and center tabernacle in a Church (my preference). And I stumbled on this article by a deacon citing the fact that his Bishop (D’Arcy) felt the same way I do. So here’s a link to that article.
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=34125
republicanherald.com/news/st-patrick-s-in-pottsville-moves-tabernacle-for-tradition-1.1334231
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Thomas_Casey
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