Christ is everything

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I think we can all agree with Pope John Paul II:
“No, we shall not be saved by a formula but by a Person.”

And Pope Benedict:
“ultimately truth is a person: Jesus Christ” and we cannot know the truth and be freed by it unless we know the person of Christ.
 
ralphinal said:
It is God through his Church.

Why are you so anti-Church? Do you think that CHristians should worship on their own?
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Hey Ralph,

Why do you think I am anti-church? I believe in corporate worship, elders and overseers. The corporate church is a major means of transforming us. But behind the instrument of the church, it is God who is changing us. Let’s go back to the question of, when we don’t cooperate with God, how does God move us forward in our spiritual journey? It is not necessarily the corporate church that He uses as His molding tool.
 
Corporate in comparison and contrast to when two or three gather in His name informally. The universal church is gathered together now on this forum site, where the Spirit of Christ is present. However, when you gather corporately as a local body of believers, it is corporate worship in my terminology. When you guys gather together corporately for Sunday Mass, what do you call it?
 
Do I sound LDS? I hope my view of Christ is much much higher than their view of Jesus.
 
underdog said:
Hey Ralph,

Why do you think I am anti-church? I believe in corporate worship, elders and overseers. The corporate church is a major means of transforming us. But behind the instrument of the church, it is God who is changing us. Let’s go back to the question of, when we don’t cooperate with God, how does God move us forward in our spiritual journey? It is not necessarily the corporate church that He uses as His molding tool.
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God uses the Church. It is that simple. It is like I use my car to go from one place to another. I still say that I went to work. I could more properly say that I used my car to transport me.

It seems like you are anti-church (not Anti-CAtholic) because you seem at times to be pointing to a “me and Jesus” kind of thing and not a “all of us together” thing. It seems like to either ignore or discount the importance that Jesus placed on the Church
 
ralphinal said:
God uses the Church. It is that simple. It is like I use my car to go from one place to another. I still say that I went to work. I could more properly say that I used my car to transport me.

It seems like you are anti-church (not Anti-CAtholic) because you seem at times to be pointing to a “me and Jesus” kind of thing and not a “all of us together” thing. It seems like to either ignore or discount the importance that Jesus placed on the Church
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When you are saying that God uses the church as an instrument, are you speaking only about the Roman Catholic Church, or other non-catholic churches too?
 
underdog said:
When you are saying that God uses the church as an instrument, are you speaking only about the Roman Catholic Church, or other non-catholic churches too?
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The “church” is the body of Christ. 🙂

Is the body of Christ divided? Does Christ will for it to be divided?
 
AshleyBelle said:
The “church” is the body of Christ. 🙂

Is the body of Christ divided? Does Christ will for it to be divided?
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How do you explain these verses?

The New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark9.htm

Mark9:38 9 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
39 Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
40 For whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
footnote9 [38-41] Jesus warns against jealousy and intolerance toward others, such as exorcists who do not follow us. The saying in Mark 9:40 is a broad principle of the divine tolerance. Even the smallest courtesies shown to those who teach in Jesus’ name do not go unrewarded.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

footnote
7 [16] Other sheep: the Gentiles, possibly a reference to “God’s dispersed children” of John 11:52 destined to be gathered into one, or “apostolic Christians” at odds with the community of the beloved disciple.
 
ron77nyc said:
How do you explain these verses?

The New American Bible
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark9.htm

Mark9:38 9 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
39 Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
40 For whoever is not against us is for us.
41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
footnote9 [38-41] Jesus warns against jealousy and intolerance toward others, such as exorcists who do not follow us. The saying in Mark 9:40 is a broad principle of the divine tolerance. Even the smallest courtesies shown to those who teach in Jesus’ name do not go unrewarded.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep 7 that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

footnote
7 [16] Other sheep: the Gentiles, possibly a reference to “God’s dispersed children” of John 11:52 destined to be gathered into one, or “apostolic Christians” at odds with the community of the beloved disciple.
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Code: 
Even the sheep who "are not a part of this fold" are still a part of the body of Christ, are they not?

I think these passages are referring to those who follow truth, who follow Christ, outside of the fullness of the truth; His church. They are still, even though they do not recognize it, a part of the body of Christ, a part of the Catholic church.  Anyone who 'does the will of the father in heaven" who "loves their neigbor" and "loves God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength," is still holding to what Christ came to reveal.  This is what is meant by "there is no salvation outside the Church."  Meaning; there is no salvation without the body of Christ.  We must be united to Christ  in order to be a part of His body:)
I guess I’m not sure what you are asking in reference to my previous post?
 
AshleyBelle said:
Even the sheep who “are not a part of this fold” are still a part of the body of Christ, are they not?
Code: 
I think these passages are referring to those who follow truth, who follow Christ, outside of the fullness of the truth; His church. They are still, even though they do not recognize it, a part of the body of Christ, a part of the Catholic church.  Anyone who 'does the will of the father in heaven" who "loves their neigbor" and "loves God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength," is still holding to what Christ came to reveal.  This is what is meant by "there is no salvation outside the Church."  Meaning; there is no salvation without the body of Christ.  We must be united to Christ  in order to be a part of His body:)
I guess I’m not sure what you are asking in reference to my previous post?
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Originally Posted by underdog
When you are saying that God uses the church as an instrument, are you speaking only about the Roman Catholic Church, or other non-catholic churches too?

You said to Underdog : Is the Body of Christ divided?

I’m just continuing with the thought.I’m not just asking only you but anyone cares to add their thoughts to my inquiry.

I want to know if you think Jesus is the chief shepherd or the Pope. Pope Boniface VIII declared every non-Catholic to be without salvation with no room for any exception. This seems to contradict the passages in Mark 9 and John 10 and also the teaching of John Paul II who was more liberal with regard to who will be saved.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/papal_primacy.htm
Pope Boniface VIII, in his Bull Unam Sanctum (1302), spelled out the doctrine of the necessity of the Church for salvation and with it the necessity of submission to the Roman Pontiff. Regarding the primacy of authority of Peter and his successors he stated:
But this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself: Whatsoever you shall bind etc. [Matt. 16:19]. Therefore, whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God [cf. Rom. 13:2] … Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.
 
Hisalone said:
Catholics will say they have both Christ and the Church. However they talk as if they do not know Christ.
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i don’t know what cahtolics you are referring to but speaking for myself… i got to know Jesus when i returned (whole-heartedly) to the R. Catholic Church, after having been “lost” many years… when i was outside the church, i was lonely, confused, beaten down by guilt and low self-esteem, etc… Now i am rarely “lonely” for anyone but Christ… and i don’t feel much of those other things iether (except confusion about what exactly God wants from me, vocation-wise, e tc…)…

I can honestly sy that i did NOT know Jesus before i came back to his Church (studied history and theology and scripture There)… I found his Real Presence… Have you ever been There???

No one truly knows Jesus Christ until he has spent a few hours There…

Being non-Catholic but christian (trusting in the Bible) is like reading love letters (scripture) from your lover but never getting to be with him, in his actual presence… the Real Presence is truly “being There”… Jesus gave us EVERYTHING He had to give… to miss out on waht he has to give is a terrible tragedy…

(and no, i am not saying only Catholics can be saved… far from it…)but i have heard that Protestants spend more time in Purg than Catholics…
 
underdog said:
What do you believe RobHom? What are the reasons that you are a Christian? What is your purpose in life? Why do you love God. Please try to answer my sincere questions to you.
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I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth, and in in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into Hell. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

I am a Christian because I was born Catholic and raised as a Catholic.

I have many purposes in my life, but first and foremost is serving God.

I love God because He gave His Son for us and our salvation.

I answered yours, not please finish answering my “sincere questions”…
 
underdog said:
I go where the Spirit of Christ is present! There is only one church, right? Christ is not divided!
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That is a very evasive and disingenuous answer. Why don’t you just answer the question? What denomination or church do you belong to?
 
fbl9 said:
few things i learned on this thread
underdog loves to quote scripture
underdog quotes scripture for an answer that does not answer
underdog does not answer questions outright
asking underdog anything is a waste of time
later all
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just to remind you Rob
 
underdog said:
Hi RobHom. We all missed you today. We all have been busy on the “who killed Jesus” thread. Come and give us your insight on that profound and controversial thread.
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Actually, I would rather you spend more time on this thread answering the questions that have been put to you.

What are you afraid of … Did not Christ say the truth will set you free? Why not tell the truth?

If you are truly a follower of Christ…then you will be honest and stop being evasive… otherwise, your veracity is highly questionable.
 
underdog said:
When you are saying that God uses the church as an instrument, are you speaking only about the Roman Catholic Church, or other non-catholic churches too?
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God can do as he pleases, however, the Catholic Church is the main means of Grace of all Christian churches.
 
underdog said:
The debate about authority and apostolic succession is important and deserves to be debated on a seperate thread. However, the supremacy of Jesus Christ as being everything to the Christian is still superior as a topic to discuss (IMO). Let’s stay focused on Jesus Christ in His life and death for the Christian. If you love the person of Jesus Christ more than your denominational church, then you might be able to see my point.
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Underdog, historically there is a huge difference between a Church and a denomination. There are many Churches in the One Church: all of them with Apostolic Succession, all of them with valid Holy Orders and celebrating the seven Sacraments. Although the great schism has separated East from West admnistratively, these “true particular Churches” are identical with the Roman Church in their understanding of what “The Church” is.

A denomination is a community that has deliberately splintered off from the Apostolic vine and taken its own theological path. It is not possible to discuss the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of a Christian without coming to terms with Jesus’ idea of how that centrality is to be lived. “Ut unum sint” – that they all might be one – was Our Lord’s prayer. A central relationship with Jesus Christ in one’s life is very much tied up with the Church He promised to build upon the rock of Peter, and which He promised to send a paraclete “to guide you into all the truth.” We take this on HIS terms, in HIS Church.
 
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