Christ, not priest or faithful, is at center of the liturgy per Francis

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poustiniak said:
This is the first indication that our Holy Father is being urged into conforming with the Whitehall bureaus of the Vatican. His advisors have advised him that he should moderate his language. This is an vital indication of the fact that we pray for our Holy Father and give him the courage to sack all of the Cardinals that rule the Vatican.
Benedict fell hook line an sinker for their ploy and had to abdicate because he knew that they had forced him into becoming a political Pontiff. Francis is now also being made to fall into the same trap. Our only hope is that being a Jesuit, Francis is bluffing. That he shall continue to send out his original message of the poor church for the poor regardless of internal politics.
Ave Papa
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Agree though I am unfamiliar with the internecine maneuvers of the Vatican. Francis may very well be a transforming figure in Christianity like blessed John 23rd. I am very inspired by the fact that Francis took the name of one of the most holy and beloved saints in the Church.

I pray for the holy Father.
 
EvangelCatholic, we deeply appreciate your comments and reflections about Pope Francis.

It may surprise you but I see nothing new in him in comparison to prior popes. Each one had a specific task for the work they dealt with in their pontificate. As each one moves on, new issues are defined and it is up to God whether or not the Holy Father has the time to deal with all of them in his pontificate.

I was most attached to Pope John Paul II, because I knew the story of Poland and its wedge between the Soviet Union and Germany, and a little of its history going back several hundred years. The people there have suffered so so much. For such a person of hope to be born in a national battle ground, he immediately gave hope to the sufferings of those living in communism and its horrific pogroms killing millions that paled against Naziism, and of which we have little knowledge. So much was done in places inaccessible to westerners.

John Paul II united East and West. His other ecclesial focus was the problems happening in the Church due to the excesses and heresies that came out of wrong application of Vatican II, and alot of discipline problems in internal organizations.

Pope Benedict said from the beginning that his pontificate would be short and that he was ailing. His brother even disagreed with him being elected at the beginning. Pope Benedict provided theological reflections on Christ, and wanted to continue the work of appropriate liturgical reform.

As Sunday Mass is the place where Catholics come together the most and it is our source of life and renewal and direction to living out our faith, Pope Benedict and many cardinals saw the renewal of the Mass as the highest priority. Many of us consider Pope Benedict our best and greatest theologian at this time, and yes, he is more of a retiring contemplative person, but these who appear weak are really great in thought and teaching.

I see Pope Francis dealing with many problems that are for his pontificate. At first it looked like he was going to focus on image and non-Catholics’ perception of the Church. No cleric owns anything in the Church, including the Pope. The Church and all its properties belong to God and the application of the Gospel.

Actually, the Catholic Church is the greatest philanthropic organization in the world, greater than any country, and the funds have been handled outside the Vatican to serve the poor. There has been dispute about this by the Curia, who wanted control of the funds. Pope Francis comprised and placed a bishop they approve of, but is beholden to Pope Francis to oversee this Catholic organization. So there is still adequate distance from the philanthropy apart from the Curia and inside control from the Vatican.

Now the exoneration of Pope Pius XII is coming to light. He pretty much ran the Church during WWII, knew of the infiltration of seminaries by communists in the West, and the Jewish organization Pave the Way, was allowed into Vatican archives to do documented studies on him to prove that he did little for the plight of the Jews. When they were finished, they came out realizing that the person who had done the most for the Jews was none other than Pius XII himself and now more is coming out on just how much he did. Incredible.

So for these past popes they were true fathers of faith in their times. But yes, Pope Francis is making great headway for many. I don’t think the prior popes either had attachment to the adornments of the papacy. John Paul II slept on the floor before he was elected pope. These adornments are more embellishments adorning the Church for Christ. They are not looked at riches in themselves but in how Christ the groom care for His Bride.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The more I read Pope Francis’ statements the more I am encouraged that he is leading the entire Church toward unity in Christ. These statements from a recent homily illustrates Francis’ centrality of Christ.

ncronline.org/news/theology/christ-not-priest-or-faithful-center-liturgy-pope-says

"In his catechesis, the pope said, “If in the celebration (of Mass) the centrality of Christ does not emerge, we won’t have Christian liturgy, totally dependent on the Lord,” who supports it with his presence.

It’s not the action of the individual – whether the priest or one of the faithful – or the group gathered in the pews “that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily the action of God through the church, which has its own history, rich tradition and creativity.”

The second paragraph sounds very Lutheran.

Any thoughts?
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Yes I agree the second paragraph sounds very Lutheran. Reminds me of a great book
“Why I am a Lutheran, Christ at the Center” by Daniel Preus I believe which gave me a great insight into Lutheranism.

I am glad you are encouraged by the words of the pope and hope for unity. I am too, at least a better understanding of each other.
 
Martin Luther was way ahead of his time in some aspects, and he wanted the people to receive Christ on the level they could understand, the return of the vernacular, good sermon as focus although in the Catholic Mass, the priest is the intercessor…but Catholic priests are being exhorted to provide better homilies for the faithful.

Luther wanted more participation at Mass, more lay singing. We had Lutherans come to our parish for a joint prayer service, and the Lutherans really outsang us. They looked at us with such longing for unity.
 
KathleenGee said:
Martin Luther was way ahead of his time in some aspects, and he wanted the people to receive Christ on the level they could understand, the return of the vernacular, good sermon as focus although in the Catholic Mass, the priest is the intercessor…but Catholic priests are being exhorted to provide better homilies for the faithful.

Luther wanted more participation at Mass, more lay singing. We had Lutherans come to our parish for a joint prayer service, and the Lutherans really outsang us. They looked at us with such longing for unity.
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Luther ahead of his time? Are you kidding me. Do you to to mass to worship God and participate in the sacrifice of Christ or to out sing the person across from you?
 
What I am talking about is more lay participation at the Mass vs how Mass was celebrated a few hundred years before the Protestant Reformation.

It was Catholic clericalism that brought on the Reformation.

Clerics and monks were an elevated class above the laity. The partition wall between the altar and the laity got higher and higher to the point the laity could not even see the altar!!! Hardly anyone received Holy Communion. The pix with Host was elevated above the wall so people would only see it elevated above the wall.

So it got down to the laity not even being able to see the Mass, understand the Latin, nor were able to read anything any way. The sermons were poor, and there were priests out there teaching theological and spiritual errors due to lack of education.

When the printing press was finally utilized by the Church, it was used to print the Roman Missals for the laity, and these were used all the way up to 1965.

Today the laity want better homilies for them.

The Catholic Mass draws us into adoration and contemplation. I don’t think with this in mind Catholics will ever be great singers. But the liturgy needs to be prayed, music doubles our prayers, all this better than just reading text.
 
by all means, give the people what they want. I thought it was not about the people but about God? Can you see the destruction that have been wrought on Christ’s church because for the reformation?

The protestant influence in the Novus Ordo mass has led to the weakening of the faith. And that is expected because the Novus ordo is more people centered. We need to worship God as he has commanded, not as people demand.

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Pope John23 opened up all of Christianity. Praying Mass facing the people, moving the altar closer to the people became the norm in Lutheran churches also, Common Lectionary, shared liturgical music results of Vatican2.
 
concretecamper said:
The protestant influence in the Novus Ordo mass has led to the weakening of the faith. And that is expected because the Novus ordo is more people centered. We need to worship God as he has commanded, not as people demand.
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How exactly has the NO Mass weaken the Faith? Because to be honest, my Catholic Faith is stronger today than it has ever been in 45 years.
 
I must remind readers that I stupidly titled this papal homily to Francis, when in fact, it is the brilliant Pope Benedict.
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
How exactly has the NO Mass weaken the Faith? Because to be honest, my Catholic Faith is stronger today than it has ever been in 45 years.
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That is awesome. I am glad for you. I wish this was more common.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
The more I read Pope Francis’ statements the more I am encouraged that he is leading the entire Church toward unity in Christ. These statements from a recent homily illustrates Francis’ centrality of Christ.

ncronline.org/news/theology/christ-not-priest-or-faithful-center-liturgy-pope-says

"In his catechesis, the pope said, “If in the celebration (of Mass) the centrality of Christ does not emerge, we won’t have Christian liturgy, totally dependent on the Lord,” who supports it with his presence.

It’s not the action of the individual – whether the priest or one of the faithful – or the group gathered in the pews “that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily the action of God through the church, which has its own history, rich tradition and creativity.”

The second paragraph sounds very Lutheran.

Any thoughts?
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:amen: of course, that has always been taught and believed since the age of the apostles…👍
 
Trishie said:
No very Catholic. Christ is always at the center of the Mass.
The true action of the priest and congregation is the action of Christ Himself.
It is Christ who offers the Mass to the Father .
The priest’s action is through the Person of Christ.

“The One that offers Sacrifice is the same One who, after having sacrificed himself on the Cross…to obtain for us eternal redemption…offers Himself now by the ministry of the priest; there is no difference except in the manner of offering.” [Council of Trent, S. 22, c.2]

“For in it Christ perpetuates in an unbloody manner the sacrifice offered on the Cross, offering Himself to the Father for the world’s salvation through the ministry of priests.” [Vatican 2 Documents.9:3]

“The Eucharistic Sacrifice is the source and summit of the whole of the Church’s worship and of Christian life. The faithful participate more fully in the sacrament of thanksgiving, propitiation, petition and praise not only when they wholeheartedly offer the sacred Victim, and in it themselves to the Father with the priest, but also when they receive this same Victim sacramentally.” [Vatican 2 Documents :9]

“The other sacraments, as indeed every ministry of the church and every work of the apostolate, are linked with the Eucharist and are directed towards it. For the Eucharist contains the entire spiritual good of the Church, namely, Christ Himself, our Passover and living bread, offering through His flesh, living and life-giving in the Spirit, life to all who are thus invited and led on to offer themselves, their labours, and all created things together with Him.” [Vatican 2 Documents.9:6]

Our beloved Savior is the center of the Mass and of the life of the Liturgy and the Church.
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:clapping::yup:👍
 
Yes, I will keep looking. Let me clarify a bit what is behind my comments.

The “changes” that the Catholic Church instituted in an attempt to draw more people backfired…the changes made were too protestant and as could be expected…nothing good came of it.

Some of the changes: As was stated before, the priest now faces the people instead of God. The alter at some parishes is more at home in a baptist meeting hall. As someone pointed out the people want good preaching over solemn worship. There are WAY to many liturgical abuses. We have swarms of extra ordinary ministers running around the church with our Lord. People are receiving the Lord in the hands and are halfway down the isle before they consume. All this can be blamed partly on the loss of the reverence in the mass.

And many of those that attend mass every Sunday are cafeteria catholics. Many either believe in abortion or put it on the same level as saving the trees or environment. Many have no problem with same sex marriage. Most have no problem with artificial contraception. The 3 most intrinsic evils of our day, and people do not get it.

In the end, we win so no hope is lost…but you sure don’t have to like what is going on in the meantime. God Bless.

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concretecamper said:
People are receiving the Lord in the hands and are halfway down the isle before they consume. All this can be blamed partly on the loss of the reverence in the mass.
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I agree on walking too far from the Altar to consume. But I disagree on the hands issue. When first established, the breaking of the bread was done by hand. Christ Himself passed the bread around.
concretecamper said:
And many of those that attend mass every Sunday are cafeteria catholics. Many either believe in abortion or put it on the same level as saving the trees or environment. Many have no problem with same sex marriage. Most have no problem with artificial contraception. The 3 most intrinsic evils of our day, and people do not get it.
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I just went off the wall on another thread about this assumptions…

Do you have statistics to back these comments? Otherwise it is just gossip. This is a highly judgmental comment and completely unsupported unless you can demonstrate with actual numbers what you are claiming.

You are using words like many and most, both are used to demonstrate significant amounts.
concretecamper said:
In the end, we win so no hope is lost…but you sure don’t have to like what is going on in the meantime. God Bless.
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As we judge others, we will be judged ourselves. Just a word of warning. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ and this divisional talk from within is exactly what the devil wants…
 
Abosultely… we should all not judge others. But remember, that Christ commands us, out of charity, to admonish the sinner. We are called to judge action and situations but we are never to judge another a soul …that is Christ job only. Not doing so is a sin of ommision and is a temptation we all face because we want to be nice and liked and not rock the boat. Time to stand up.
 
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