Christ, not priest or faithful, is at center of the liturgy per Francis

  • Thread starter Thread starter EvangelCatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You are welcome. If you do a Google on the topic there are many resource and surveys that say the same thing. I just wasn’t patient enough to copy and paste all the links. The information is there is you wish to discover it.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android
 
=concretecamper;10980684]Yes, I will keep looking. Let me clarify a bit what is behind my comments.
Click to expand...
The “changes” that the Catholic Church instituted in an attempt to draw more people backfired…the changes made were too protestant and as could be expected…nothing good came of it.
Click to expand...
Just some comments and observations:
Some of the changes: As was stated before, the priest now faces the people instead of God.
Click to expand...
When I was growing up, virtually all Lutheran pastors faced the altar wit his back to the congregation. Now, most face the people- we followed the CC in this change.
The alter at some parishes is more at home in a baptist meeting hall.
Click to expand...
Gosh, I hope not, but I did recently see a Lutheran altar that looked this way.
As someone pointed out the people want good preaching over solemn worship.
Click to expand...
Some Lutherans would prefer the 10-15 Catholic homily. Perhaps there is a middle ground.
People are receiving the Lord in the hands and are halfway down the isle before they consume. All this can be blamed partly on the loss of the reverence in the mass.
Click to expand...
I always received on the tongue when was younger. Then we followed the CC

In short, on a lot of these matters, I think we followed you, not the other way around. 😉

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Just some comments and observations:

When I was growing up, virtually all Lutheran pastors faced the altar wit his back to the congregation. Now, most face the people- we followed the CC in this change.

Gosh, I hope not, but I did recently see a Lutheran altar that looked this way.

Some Lutherans would prefer the 10-15 Catholic homily. Perhaps there is a middle ground.

I always received on the tongue when was younger. Then we followed the CC

In short, on a lot of these matters, I think we followed you, not the other way around. 😉

Jon
Click to expand...
Jon

I am old enough to recall the same memories as you. The pastor facing the altar with back to the people. We couldn’t see what was happening except at the elevation. Reception of the Host on the tongue only. In-fact, as an acolyte in my childhood I had an up close look at how holy Communion was distributed. In those days only the clergy were allowed to distribute the holy elements and most parishes had only one pastor. Taking communion was tediously long that could easily take up to 30 minutes since the pastor first distributed the host on each person’s tongue kneeling at the altar rail and then the cup. No one even dared consider touching the chalice so the pastor had to gage exactly how much wine to give each communicant. I still laugh to myself about how awkward is must have been for both the celebrant and communicant when recalling how a retired priest lost track of what he was doing and gave a woman communicant the cup twice; she could barely swallow the first generous amount of wine when she was given another mouth full.
 
Jon,

To be clear, there was never any RCC dictate or document that required the priest change from facing God to facing the people so I question whether the Lutherans followed the RCC. Many mistaken that this was from Vatican II but that is not the case. And by protestant influence, I do not mean the RCC “copied” protestant communities rather the influence I speak of is a mentality prevalent during a time of “Liturgical Movement”.

On communion, in the RCC, the standard and preferred way to recieve the Lord is on the tongue while kneeling. This has NEVER changed. I bet you that 99% of Catholics do not realize this. As an alternate, people are given the choice to recieve in the hand. And, since most RC churches ripped out the communion rails the option of kneeling is a bit tougher to accomplish. So are you sure the Lutherans followed the RCC on this becasue the rules never changed, just the practices changed.

To steal a quote “The great liturgical scholar Klaus Gamber said that of all the harmful things that came from the post-Conciliar reform, turning altars around was the most damaging”. I could not agree with this more.

God Bless
 
=concretecamper;10995806]Jon,
Click to expand...
To be clear, there was never any RCC dictate or document that required the priest change from facing God to facing the people so I question whether the Lutherans followed the RCC. Many mistaken that this was from Vatican II but that is not the case. And by protestant influence, I do not mean the RCC “copied” protestant communities rather the influence I speak of is a mentality prevalent during a time of “Liturgical Movement”.
Click to expand...
Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, just my observations here, which are collaborated by EC. So, it seems that the Lutherans followed this movement which appears to have started with the Catholics.
On communion, in the RCC, the standard and preferred way to recieve the Lord is on the tongue while kneeling. This has NEVER changed. I bet you that 99% of Catholics do not realize this. As an alternate, people are given the choice to recieve in the hand. And, since most RC churches ripped out the communion rails the option of kneeling is a bit tougher to accomplish. So are you sure the Lutherans followed the RCC on this becasue the rules never changed, just the practices changed.
Click to expand...
Well, I am really talking about practice. Lutherans for the most part receive on their knees, as Lutheran churches tend to continue to have kneeling rails. My point was that there was a time when Lutherans generally received on the tongue, and this seems to have changed when it change with you guys.
To steal a quote “The great liturgical scholar Klaus Gamber said that of all the harmful things that came from the post-Conciliar reform, turning altars around was the most damaging”. I could not agree with this more.
Click to expand...
It is certainly something worth reconsidering, in both communions.
God Bless
Click to expand...
And also with you,

Jon
 
What a wonderful homily on our unity in Christ and tells Lutherans that the Pope speaks for us.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
Jon

I am old enough to recall the same memories as you. The pastor facing the altar with back to the people. We couldn’t see what was happening except at the elevation. Reception of the Host on the tongue only. In-fact, as an acolyte in my childhood I had an up close look at how holy Communion was distributed. In those days only the clergy were allowed to distribute the holy elements and most parishes had only one pastor. Taking communion was tediously long that could easily take up to 30 minutes since the pastor first distributed the host on each person’s tongue kneeling at the altar rail and then the cup. No one even dared consider touching the chalice so the pastor had to gage exactly how much wine to give each communicant. I still laugh to myself about how awkward is must have been for both the celebrant and communicant when recalling how a retired priest lost track of what he was doing and gave a woman communicant the cup twice; she could barely swallow the first generous amount of wine when she was given another mouth full.
Click to expand...
Our Divine Services generally run 1-1/2 hours, and at times will push 2 hours with a packed sanctuary. Lots of hymns to sing during the distribution!

Our church is very old, and the original altar is up against the back of the apse so the pastor either has his back to the faithful (that’s how our pastor emeritus does it) or has a lot of extra bowing if he turns to face us (the younger pastor does this when he elevates the Host).

This may be digressing a bit, but I think it would be very helpful to set aside some time with our young people and explain the liturgy and the reason for the parts (and history too!) so perhaps they don’t just assume it’s merely old-fashioned and not relevant. And we should start it younger than the confirmands, IMO.
 
Stilldreamn said:
Our Divine Services generally run 1-1/2 hours, and at times will push 2 hours with a packed sanctuary. Lots of hymns to sing during the distribution!

Our church is very old, and the original altar is up against the back of the apse so the pastor either has his back to the faithful (that’s how our pastor emeritus does it) or has a lot of extra bowing if he turns to face us (the younger pastor does this when he elevates the Host).

This may be digressing a bit, but I think it would be very helpful to set aside some time with our young people and explain the liturgy and the reason for the parts (and history too!) so perhaps they don’t just assume it’s merely old-fashioned and not relevant. And we should start it younger than the confirmands, IMO.
Click to expand...
We are brothers in the Missouri Synod. All my early adult life was shaped by the LCMS.
I am glad most Lutheran parishes are keeping the altar rail especially if there are not kneelers.

Now all Lutherans allow lay altar assistants, right?
 
EvangelCatholic said:
We are brothers in the Missouri Synod. All my early adult life was shaped by the LCMS.
I am glad most Lutheran parishes are keeping the altar rail especially if there are not kneelers.

Now all Lutherans allow lay altar assistants, right?
Click to expand...
We do. I don’t know about WELS. Communion assistants are usually elders, or former elders (men), though acolytes and lay readers can be female.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
We do. I don’t know about WELS. Communion assistants are usually elders, or former elders (men), though acolytes and lay readers can be female.

Jon
Click to expand...
At my parent’s LCMS parish women can only serve in the choir, altar guild and in the parish hall :eek:
 
EvangelCatholic, when you hear the Holy Father ‘speaking for us’, he also speaking for all humanity, and this is part of the charism of the papacy – to reveal the Living Tradition of Christ for today.

The other charism is that the Holy Father is the sign of unity for all believers in Christ, especially the bishops and faithful in full communion with him.

There was never any dictate coming out of Vatican II that said you had to remove communion kneelers. This was one of those interpretations. There was no mention of women no longer needing to have their heads covered, but then Vatican II abrogated such small ecclesial traditions. Communion in the hand was being pushed in some countries, and I read recently in Robert Moynihan’s book in his interview with emeritus Pope Benedict that Pope Paul VI was pressured into signing communion in the hand for the USA.

I hope it is in Pope Francis’ agenda to continue the work of bringing about the true intent of Vatican II regarding the liturgy. Pope Benedict and Cardinal Wuerl here said there is more work to be done. The Sunday Mass of the Resurrection is indeed our greatest feast day in the Church, not Christmas or Easter, but ordinary Sunday. This is where we gather and we need to see that after reception, we are truly sent out into the world to bring Christ.

Liturgy is very complex.

No, the altars were not always facing east. You go back to the ancient Christian world, Hebrew (Jewish) Christians met in synagogues. Gentiles gathered in the courtyards of the wealthy. The Gentile world exploded in faith for Christ and subsequently, the Hebrew Christians made little impact on liturgical norms.

Greek and Latin were always in use with the vernacular. The Catholic Church after the Reformation used the printing press to make the Roman missals and then only the Pope could make changes to the liturgy.

That is interesting and good to know, appreciate that there are Lutheran churches that have communion kneelers. Frankly, I wish they were back.
 
KathleenGee said:
EvangelCatholic, when you hear the Holy Father ‘speaking for us’, he also speaking for all humanity, and this is part of the charism of the papacy – to reveal the Living Tradition of Christ for today.

The other charism is that the Holy Father is the sign of unity for all believers in Christ, especially the bishops and faithful in full communion with him.

There was never any dictate coming out of Vatican II that said you had to remove communion kneelers. This was one of those interpretations. There was no mention of women no longer needing to have their heads covered, but then Vatican II abrogated such small ecclesial traditions. Communion in the hand was being pushed in some countries, and I read recently in Robert Moynihan’s book in his interview with emeritus Pope Benedict that Pope Paul VI was pressured into signing communion in the hand for the USA.

I hope it is in Pope Francis’ agenda to continue the work of bringing about the true intent of Vatican II regarding the liturgy. Pope Benedict and Cardinal Wuerl here said there is more work to be done. The Sunday Mass of the Resurrection is indeed our greatest feast day in the Church, not Christmas or Easter, but ordinary Sunday. This is where we gather and we need to see that after reception, we are truly sent out into the world to bring Christ.

Liturgy is very complex.

No, the altars were not always facing east. You go back to the ancient Christian world, Hebrew (Jewish) Christians met in synagogues. Gentiles gathered in the courtyards of the wealthy. The Gentile world exploded in faith for Christ and subsequently, the Hebrew Christians made little impact on liturgical norms.

Greek and Latin were always in use with the vernacular. The Catholic Church after the Reformation used the printing press to make the Roman missals and then only the Pope could make changes to the liturgy.

That is interesting and good to know, appreciate that there are Lutheran churches that have communion kneelers. Frankly, I wish they were back.
Click to expand...
Yes, KathleenGee, the liturgy means the work of the faithful. We need the Pope to guide us in rediscovering Christ in the Mass. Lutherans view ourselves as totally unworthy of Christ’s forgiveness; that the Mass is a wonderful gift for undeserving sinners.

Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof,
but only speak the word and my soul shall be healed
 
The way of humility and poverty – detachment from the world, simple mortifications such as having some days where no meat is eaten and/or one meal a day…this would all help in manifesting Christ.

The Church needs to draw to Christ more deeply, Pope Francis’ expression of faith means alot to mean non-Catholics, and through a more penitential – wholesome I would add – and more praying in the day, just remembering to thank Christ or praise Him, would do much good in drawing the spirit of the world away from the Church.

EvangelCatholic, I would like your church.
 
Trishie is right and Pope Francis is right - the Mass is Christ’s offering of Himself to the Father and His prayers to His father - it is all His doing! the priest and congregation are there by His arrangement. The Mass is Our Lord’s prayer to God (on our behalf). Oh yea of little faith.
 
concretecamper said:
On communion, in the RCC, the standard and preferred way to recieve the Lord is on the tongue while kneeling. This has NEVER changed. I bet you that 99% of Catholics do not realize this. As an alternate, people are given the choice to recieve in the hand. And, since most RC churches ripped out the communion rails the option of kneeling is a bit tougher to accomplish. So are you sure the Lutherans followed the RCC on this becasue the rules never changed, just the practices changed.
Click to expand...
The practices changed but not entirely. Communicants can still receive the Lord on the tongue and kneeling. Since if we admit this is a practice, then nothing much has changed; the basic and the fundamental of the Eucharist is still very much believed and maintained. I is sad if practices decide the faith our people. The reason for receiving on the tongue is well discussed and debated but the reason for doing it is reasonable and it does not contravene anything with regards to the Eucharist.
 
concretecamper said:
Some of the changes: As was stated before, the priest now faces the people instead of God.
Click to expand...
I can understand the preference for the celebrant to face the tabernacle. But when he faces the congregation he is not facing God, this one I have not heard before.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
At my parent’s LCMS parish women can only serve in the choir, altar guild and in the parish hall :eek:
Click to expand...
In my opinion, women have the most important role to play in church. A role bigger than bishops and pastors.

They’re mothers.
 
Reuben_J said:
The practices changed but not entirely. Communicants can still receive the Lord on the tongue and kneeling. Since if we admit this is a practice, then nothing much has changed; the basic and the fundamental of the Eucharist is still very much believed and maintained. I is sad if practices decide the faith our people. The reason for receiving on the tongue is well discussed and debated but the reason for doing it is reasonable and it does not contravene anything with regards to the Eucharist.
Click to expand...
Nothing can change the reality of the Eucharist, I do not think I suggested this. However, practices can affect perception…and over time perception becomes reality in people’s minds.

You cannot argue that there is much less respect shown in the communion line vs. the communion rail of old. The respect has not changed for faithful catholics but is has changed for many as evidenced by behavior.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top