Z
Zundrah
Guest
Some catholic churches are very graphic at times. But I adore the paintings and statues of Mary and Jesus.:yup:
- Status
P
patrick457
Guest
To add on what Mintaka said, the “Harrowing of Hell” (as the event is called) is actually the primary way the Resurrection, or Anastasis, is depicted in Eastern art, in contrast to the West (where images of the Resurrection show the event where Jesus is literally rising up from His grave, flanked by sleeping soldiers and/or angels).
Here are some historical artworks featuring the Harrowing of Hell:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4124/776pxmeistervonmc3bcsta.jpg
Carolingian fresco on the north wall of the nave of the Monastery Church of St. John in Müstair, Switzerland (ca. 825 AD).
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6595/image006xky.jpg
From the Chludov Psalter (mid-9th century).
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8564/jl137.jpg
Mosaic from Hosios Loukas in Boeotia, Greece (ca. 11th century).
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1509/harrowingsantiago.jpg
12th century stone relief from Santiago de Compostela in Spain.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6020/447pxstalbanspsalterhar.jpg
Miniature from the St. Albans Psalter (ca. 1125 AD).
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7345/pickrhar.jpg
Wallpainting from the church at Pickering, North Yorkshire (15th century).
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8465/397pxharrowingbermejo.jpg
Christ Leading the Patriarchs to Paradise by Bartolomé Bermejo (ca. 1480).
Note especially the prominence of the cross in most of these illustrations.
As a bonus, a page tracing the development of depictions of the Anastasis in art.
Here are some historical artworks featuring the Harrowing of Hell:
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4124/776pxmeistervonmc3bcsta.jpg
Carolingian fresco on the north wall of the nave of the Monastery Church of St. John in Müstair, Switzerland (ca. 825 AD).
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6595/image006xky.jpg
From the Chludov Psalter (mid-9th century).
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8564/jl137.jpg
Mosaic from Hosios Loukas in Boeotia, Greece (ca. 11th century).
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1509/harrowingsantiago.jpg
12th century stone relief from Santiago de Compostela in Spain.
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6020/447pxstalbanspsalterhar.jpg
Miniature from the St. Albans Psalter (ca. 1125 AD).
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7345/pickrhar.jpg
Wallpainting from the church at Pickering, North Yorkshire (15th century).
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8465/397pxharrowingbermejo.jpg
Christ Leading the Patriarchs to Paradise by Bartolomé Bermejo (ca. 1480).
Note especially the prominence of the cross in most of these illustrations.
As a bonus, a page tracing the development of depictions of the Anastasis in art.
P
patrick457
Guest
Many ancient churches are literally covered with artworks, be they in fresco or in mosaic. One of the things the Protestant denominations had lost that I think they should regret is the loss of these visual media, these Biblia pauperum (“Bible of the poor”) on churches - which shows the entire history of salvation and the heroes of the Faith in a form that even an illiterate peasant could learn and understand.Some catholic churches are very graphic at times. But I adore the paintings and statues of Mary and Jesus.:yup:
Z
Zundrah
Guest
I know! It’s such a terrible shame that the protestant denominations haven;'t got any art work in the church. What a wasted building!
Cathedrals are the love of my life - or rather the statues of Mary and Christ1
P.S. Some great pictures you got there!
P
patrick457
Guest
Unfortunately though, a number of (Catholic) churches right now had also gone down that same iconoclastic road - since the late 60’s at least - and reject the frescoes, the mosaics and the statuary which had decorated Catholic churches for many an age, claiming it as either “antiquated” (you know, the whole “did away with that” excuse) or as a distraction that needs to be removed or something that is not relevant. These are what is humourously called the “warehouse churches”, since they are either so bleak or so abstract that you’d almost never think you’re in a church, much less a Catholic one!I know! It’s such a terrible shame that the protestant denominations haven;'t got any art work in the church. What a wasted building!
Cathedrals are the love of my life - or rather the statues of Mary and Christ1
P.S. Some great pictures you got there!
Personally, I don’t get the reason why some just want to get rid of images…we’ve all heard the ‘Thou shalt not make any graven image’ or the ‘old-fashioned and not-relevant; we did away with that’ argument, but still…
…Now back to regular programming. Sorry for being a bit off-topic.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Unfortunately though, a number of (Catholic) churches right now had also gone down that same iconoclastic road - since the late 60’s at least - and reject the frescoes, the mosaics and the statuary which had decorated Catholic churches for many an age, claiming it as either “antiquated” (you know, the whole “did away with that” excuse) or as a distraction that needs to be removed or something that is not relevant. These are what is humourously called the “warehouse churches”, since they are either so bleak or so abstract that you’d almost never think you’re in a church, much less a Catholic one!
Personally, I don’t get the reason why some just want to get rid of images…we’ve all heard the ‘Thou shalt not make any graven image’ or the ‘old-fashioned and not-relevant; we did away with that’ argument, but still…
…Now back to regular programming. Sorry for being a bit off-topic.
Ware house churches!? That sounds like my old Methodist church!
But seriously, how dare they pull down pictures of Christ and the saints? It sounds so painful to hear this…
P
patrick457
Guest
Apparently the ‘deconstruction’ of many Catholic churches was done in the name of “modernization” and being more “relevant”. You know, icons and statuaries, the smells and bells, the chant and the organ and all that just reeks of the old, primitive days when people were dumb and gullible - we’re in a new age now; we’ve no need for these things. We should be more relevant to the world around us! Or so they say. Even so, I still don’t get it…I’ll agree it’s too painful.
That sounds like my old Methodist church!
But seriously, how dare they pull down pictures of Christ and the saints? It sounds so painful to hear this…
As an aside, there was once this joke about how a Protestant once complained to a Catholic about how Catholics worship statues and all that - to which the Catholic quipped, “No we don’t; now we worship banners.”
P
PJM
Guest
=Zundrah;5339629]In the bible and in the Apostles’ Creed prayer it says that Christ descended into hell for three days! Was he really there, and do you think he was suffering actual torment while down there? But he never sinned so how can Satan punish him while he was in hell?
Was it once again another way of Christ knowing what we go through as humans?
***There is still discussion of which “hell” Christ desended to to.It’s an interesting thought that God went to hell for three days!
Here are the two positions, and a Catholic can hold either of both
IF, Christ actually desended to the “hell of the Damned” it would have been to demonistrate His Kingship over it. he would not have spent much time there, only what was necessary to make evident His Lordship. Certainly He would not have suffered at all in the process.
The more common understanding is that Christ desended to the “limbo of the Fathers” and unlocked for them as He did for us the gates of Heaven.***
**Hell: punishment of criminals.
Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell:
•hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men;
•the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment;
•the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam;
•purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven.**
Love and prayers,
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Apparently the ‘deconstruction’ of many Catholic churches was done in the name of “modernization” and being more “relevant”. You know, icons and statuaries, the smells and bells, the chant and the organ and all that just reeks of the old, primitive days when people were dumb and gullible - we’re in a new age now; we’ve no need for these things. We should be more relevant to the world around us! Or so they say. Even so, I still don’t get it…I’ll agree it’s too painful.
As an aside, there was once this joke about how a Protestant once complained to a Catholic about how Catholics worship statues and all that - to which the Catholic quipped, “No we don’t; now we worship banners.”
ha ha, I remember last Sunday I saw a man kissing Mary (the statue) and then he kissed Joseph holding baby Jesus.I remember when I also believed that Catholic’s were worshiping statues and blaspheming by praying to saints - but that grudge has all gone now, since I also do it my self…
P
patrick457
Guest
A couple of patristic quotes about the descent to inferus/ta katôtata:
By ourselves inferi are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth, (Matthew 12:40) that is, in the secret inner recess which is hidden in the earth, and enclosed by the earth, and superimposed on the abysmal depths which lie still lower down. Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, “He died according to the Scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:3) and “according to the same Scriptures was buried.” With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself (1 Peter 3:19). (This being the case), you must suppose inferus to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm’s length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the inferi. These persons, who are “servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master” (Matthew 10:24), would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in the bosom of Abraham.
-Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul 55
Celsus next addresses to us the following remark: “You will not, I suppose, say of him, that, after failing to gain over those who were in this world, he went to Hades to gain over those who were there.” But whether he like it or not, we assert that not only while Jesus was in the body did He win over not a few persons merely, but so great a number, that a conspiracy was formed against Him on account of the multitude of His followers; but also, that when He became a soul, without the covering of the body, He dwelt among those souls which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself, or those whom He saw, for reasons known to Him alone, to be better adapted to such a course.
-Origen, Against Celsus 2:43
By ourselves inferi are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth, (Matthew 12:40) that is, in the secret inner recess which is hidden in the earth, and enclosed by the earth, and superimposed on the abysmal depths which lie still lower down. Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, “He died according to the Scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:3) and “according to the same Scriptures was buried.” With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself (1 Peter 3:19). (This being the case), you must suppose inferus to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm’s length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the inferi. These persons, who are “servants above their Lord, and disciples above their Master” (Matthew 10:24), would no doubt spurn to receive the comfort of the resurrection, if they must expect it in the bosom of Abraham.
-Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul 55
Celsus next addresses to us the following remark: “You will not, I suppose, say of him, that, after failing to gain over those who were in this world, he went to Hades to gain over those who were there.” But whether he like it or not, we assert that not only while Jesus was in the body did He win over not a few persons merely, but so great a number, that a conspiracy was formed against Him on account of the multitude of His followers; but also, that when He became a soul, without the covering of the body, He dwelt among those souls which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself, or those whom He saw, for reasons known to Him alone, to be better adapted to such a course.
-Origen, Against Celsus 2:43
P
PJM
Guest
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
I think this topic also needs to be read in conjunction with 1 Peter 3:18- 20 “… He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark…”
At any time, I think God must be present in Hell to some extent, otherwise there would be no separation of punishments. Left to the devil without restraint, the average adulterer or common thief would suffer just as much as or more than Adolf Hitler. So to some extent, even in Hell, God must be present.
As for Christ descending to the dead, I think the inference is that He preached to the imprisoned spirits. Those who preceded Moses for example had no formal Law to refer to. Overall though it’s a mysterious interlude. But then the whole spiritual, psychic world is weird anyway.
At any time, I think God must be present in Hell to some extent, otherwise there would be no separation of punishments. Left to the devil without restraint, the average adulterer or common thief would suffer just as much as or more than Adolf Hitler. So to some extent, even in Hell, God must be present.
As for Christ descending to the dead, I think the inference is that He preached to the imprisoned spirits. Those who preceded Moses for example had no formal Law to refer to. Overall though it’s a mysterious interlude. But then the whole spiritual, psychic world is weird anyway.
J
JSSebastianoP
Guest
Interesting. Not to be argumentative, but what about a kind of set-up in which Satan himself is trapped in hell, like Dante imagines…?
Pax.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Satan was the snake in the beginning of the bible, God said that he would cruel on his belly all the days of his life. So metathorically it is obvious that Satan is restrained some how.
J
JSSebastianoP
Guest
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Read in revelation about the woman and the dragon - it’s great stuff I tell you.Interesting… I have lots of things to learn still…
Pax.
It’s about Satan trying to stop Mary’s pregnancy succeeding in the birth of Christ, the devil tries to destroy her son but God does not allow him to do so! Mwah, ha, ha, ha!
score board
God - 1 (his son)
Satan - nill (as usual)
Z
Zundrah
Guest
If you read it on the site it says that we have to mail him? I will try it for us and tell you what happens, JRKH.The link did not got o a bible page.
Peace
James
Z
Zundrah
Guest
FAILED! The link is wrong?If you read it on the site it says that we have to mail him? I will try it for us and tell you what happens, JRKH.
- Status