Christian abortion debate

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I was wondering if any of you guys know of a good debate on abortion between Christians who support it and Christians who do not. Normally I’m not debating the issue with other Christians, so I leave theology and Scripture completely out of it, but I recently saw some strange Scriptural claims by pro-aborts and wanted to see what all else they are claiming.
 
I was wondering if any of you guys know of a good debate on abortion between Christians who support it and Christians who do not. Normally I’m not debating the issue with other Christians, so I leave theology and Scripture completely out of it, but I recently saw some strange Scriptural claims by pro-aborts and wanted to see what all else they are claiming.
Why mess with Theology when science tells you that a fetus is a complete and distinct individual separate from the father and mother and if he/she belongs to the human race some rights should be afforded to him/her?
 
Why mess with Theology when science tells you that a fetus is a complete and distinct individual separate from the father and mother and if he/she belongs to the human race some rights should be afforded to him/her?
That’s why I said I don’t normally even bring up theology. I recently heard people trying to bring up Scripture to try to support abortion (which of course it doesn’t), and I’m just curious what other scriptural or theological arguments there are out there from pro-abort “Christians”.
 
I don’t know if I’m allowed to link to TheChristianLeft, but they recently ran an article on Oct 31st on the topic. A relative linked to it on his FB, and I was pretty furious that he seemed to take it seriously. :mad: Still pretty upset.

Basically, it’s one of those situations where “even the devil can cite Scripture”… you find a position, and then go hunting to find snippets that support your opinion (or claim that the lack of snippets including certain keywords indicates support for your opinion), and totally ignore everything else that would refute your position.
 
If I remember correctly - I heard on the Radio from noted Protestant Radio personality J. Vernon Mgee (Msp?) reversed his previous perspective and indicated that there is nothing in the bible that justifies abortion due to rape. 👍
 
I don’t know if I’m allowed to link to TheChristianLeft, but they recently ran an article on Oct 31st on the topic. A relative linked to it on his FB, and I was pretty furious that he seemed to take it seriously. :mad: Still pretty upset.

Basically, it’s one of those situations where “even the devil can cite Scripture”… you find a position, and then go hunting to find snippets that support your opinion (or claim that the lack of snippets including certain keywords indicates support for your opinion), and totally ignore everything else that would refute your position.
Catholics can’t use this thinly-veiled loophole though, as the proper interpretation of Scripture on the topic of abortion is already covered in the Catechism:
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

So while this may not convince “Bible alone” or “saved by faith” or “I can interpret the Bible myself” Christians, it paints so-called “pro-choice Catholics” into a corner.
 
I was wondering if any of you guys know of a good debate on abortion between Christians who support it and Christians who do not. Normally I’m not debating the issue with other Christians, so I leave theology and Scripture completely out of it, but I recently saw some strange Scriptural claims by pro-aborts and wanted to see what all else they are claiming.
the bishops are currently involved in a debate on this issue

a few days ago Biden said:

With regard to the assault on the Catholic Church, let me make it absolutely clear. No religious institution — Catholic or otherwise, including Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital — none has to either refer contraception, none has to pay for contraception, none has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact. That is a fact.

No, it’s not, and the USCCB harshly condemned Biden for lying. In a statement, they said:

This is not a fact. The HHS mandate contains a narrow, four-part exemption for certain ‘religious employers.’ That exemption was made final in February and does not extend to ‘Catholic social services, Georgetown hospital, Mercy hospital, any hospital,’ or any other religious charity that offers its services to all, regardless of the faith of those served.

The USCCB added that HHS has used an additional “accommodation” that called religious organizations like these “non-exempt.” The USCCB asserted that the organizations will have to serve as a vehicle to get contraception “because they will still be forced to provide their employees with health coverage, and that coverage will still have to include sterilization, contraception, and abortifacients. USCCB continues to urge HHS, in the strongest possible terms, actually to eliminate the various infringements on religious freedom imposed by the mandate.”

This is nowhere near the first lie Biden has told; but it certainly ranks with his best, if he really believes in the same God Catholics do. It’s understandable that Biden gets confused; he has to choose between the Judeo-Christian God (who may punish him later) and the one in the White House (who will punish him now.). But if the Catholic Church rises up and advises its constituents to rebuke Obama/Biden for their attacks on virtually everything the Catholic Church holds dear, there may be justice served much earlier than Biden thinks.
Shalom 👍

God Bless
 
Why mess with Theology when science tells you that a fetus is a complete and distinct individual separate from the father and mother and if he/she belongs to the human race some rights should be afforded to him/her?
Why are rights dependent upon species membership? A first-trimester human foetus has no more sentience, therefore no more interest, therefore no more rights in any rational sense, than a carrot.
 
I was wondering if any of you guys know of a good debate on abortion between Christians who support it and Christians who do not. Normally I’m not debating the issue with other Christians, so I leave theology and Scripture completely out of it, but I recently saw some strange Scriptural claims by pro-aborts and wanted to see what all else they are claiming.
Search for abortion threads on “Christian Forums”. I was quite amazed at how fervently I had to defend the pro-life position against some of the professed believers there.
 
Why are rights dependent upon species membership? A first-trimester human foetus has no more sentience, therefore no more interest, therefore no more rights in any rational sense, than a carrot.
That is absurd. Of course HUMAN rights are dependent upon membership in that species. I think you forgot to place the “ir” before the word “rational”. Read a science book before making ridiculous arguments like that about what a first trimester fetus is like.

And since you admire Christopher Hitchens, you might be interested in what he said about people who make arguments like yours:

“I used to cringe when I heard this, not so much because in the moral sense fetuses aren’t to be compared to appendixes, let alone tumors, but because it is obvious nonsense from the biological and embryological points of view. Babies come from where they come from.”

This was in reference to feminists trying to compare a fetus to something non-human.
 
I don’t know if I’m allowed to link to TheChristianLeft, but they recently ran an article on Oct 31st on the topic. A relative linked to it on his FB, and I was pretty furious that he seemed to take it seriously. :mad: Still pretty upset.

Basically, it’s one of those situations where “even the devil can cite Scripture”… you find a position, and then go hunting to find snippets that support your opinion (or claim that the lack of snippets including certain keywords indicates support for your opinion), and totally ignore everything else that would refute your position.
I would say the one thing the Bible teaches us at every corner, is love. It also warns us against selfishness and how so many sins are committed with selfishness being at the heart. Abortion is certainly not love, and the majority are done for selfish reasons. It’s pretty evident what the Bible teaches us about abortion!
 
I would say the one thing the Bible teaches us at every corner, is love. It also warns us against selfishness and how so many sins are committed with selfishness being at the heart. Abortion is certainly not love, and the majority are done for selfish reasons. It’s pretty evident what the Bible teaches us about abortion!
See the following references. Footnotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

73 Jer 1:5; cf. Job 10:8-12; Ps 22:10-11.
74 Ps 139:15.
75 Didache 2,2:SCh 248,148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19,5:PG 2 777; Ad Diognetum 5,6:PG 2,1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9:PL 1,319-320.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2271

Consult the CATECHISM not your own opinion!!!
 
See the following references. Footnotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

73 Jer 1:5; cf. Job 10:8-12; Ps 22:10-11.
74 Ps 139:15.
75 Didache 2,2:SCh 248,148; cf. Ep. Barnabae 19,5:PG 2 777; Ad Diognetum 5,6:PG 2,1173; Tertullian, Apol. 9:PL 1,319-320.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2271

Consult the CATECHISM not your own opinion!!!
I agree, the Catechism is a great place for answers, but not all Christians are Catholic. There are some who make wild claims that the Bible doesn’t explicitly say that abortion is wrong so they think it justifies their position. What the Bible does say is to love, and abortion is not love. In fact, it is the embodiment of anti-love and the opposite of what Jesus taught.
 
Why are rights dependent upon species membership? A first-trimester human foetus has no more sentience, therefore no more interest, therefore no more rights in any rational sense, than a carrot.
Why are you basing entitlement to rights on sentience? Is someone who commits a murder spree in a mental hospital entitled to acquittal because he only killed a bunch of “carrots”?

Who determines whether one is “sentient?” Do you administer some kind of IQ or viability test to determine sentience? If someone can make you a non-person by declaring you non-sentient, then doesn’t that make all rights alienable? And if all rights are alienable by “superior” men then how can democracy exist?

Don’t be such a carrot. Think!
 
Why are you basing entitlement to rights on sentience? Is someone who commits a murder spree in a mental hospital entitled to acquittal because he only killed a bunch of “carrots”?

Who determines whether one is “sentient?” Do you administer some kind of IQ or viability test to determine sentience? If someone can make you a non-person by declaring you non-sentient, then doesn’t that make all rights alienable? And if all rights are alienable by “superior” men then how can democracy exist?

Don’t be such a carrot. Think!
Does this mean that if you knock someone unconscious, you can kill them?
 
Why are rights dependent upon species membership? A first-trimester human foetus has no more sentience, therefore no more interest, therefore no more rights in any rational sense, than a carrot.
Does this mean that if someone is unconscious or sleeping, that you can kill them?
Your assertion is naive.
 
I was wondering if any of you guys know of a good debate on abortion between Christians who support it and Christians who do not. Normally I’m not debating the issue with other Christians, so I leave theology and Scripture completely out of it, but I recently saw some strange Scriptural claims by pro-aborts and wanted to see what all else they are claiming.
Some Christians use Numbers 5:11-31 as the basis for the claim that God allows abortion.

There was a thread on it at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=716987&highlight=prolapse&page=2.

And another thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=644957&highlight=prolapse

-Tim-
 
Why are rights dependent upon species membership? A first-trimester human foetus has no more sentience, therefore no more interest, therefore no more rights in any rational sense, than a carrot.
Who gets to make such a determination?
 
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