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aidanbradypop
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Sure we have churches that are apart of the Christian Church (Body of Christ), but the RCC just does not recognize them as such. Not sure that it a big factor for many of us though.
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John_Lazarus
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Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, "Me, too!
“Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.
He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, "Me, too!
“Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.
- Emo Philips
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Elizium23
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The Catholic Church teaches that protestant bodies cannot be termed Churches because they lack the Four Marks.
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aidanbradypop
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I know
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Elizium23
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Not many people do.
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aidanbradypop
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But like I said, Protestant really do not concern themselves with whether or not the RCC deems them a church or not
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captainrick
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Agreed - I was Methodist for many years, and we certainly were church members, went to church on Sundays, went to church activities, had a sign indicating “Methodist Church” out front and cleaned up the church property on Saturdays. In other words, it was a church. What the Catholic Church taught didn’t figure into it.
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phil19034
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Yes, some Baptist groups re-baptize. My dad and sister were re-baptized in the “Liberty Baptist Church”
I would define a denomination as a group with separate theology, Sacred Tradition, Dogma, Doctrine, AND/OR hierarchy. For example, you mention the Baptist. I would group each Baptist conference as one denomination, Southern Baptist, Liberty Baptist, American Baptist, etc. While many are similar, they are also different with theological differences or different interpretations on Scripture. Plus they have totally different hierarchy and can officially disagree with one another.
Nationality and (lower case t) traditions have little or nothing to do with it, but could result in a schismatic break of hierarchy. Schismatics are considered their own denominations because they break away due to hierarchal, dogmatic and/or doctrinal reasons. So, for example, the “Old Catholics” are not part of the Catholic Church. While Roman Rite Catholics, Coptic Catholics, Maronites, Chaldeans, Ruthenian Catholics, etc. are all one “denomination” because we all fall under the hierarchy of the Pope and all share the same Deposit of Faith.
NOTE: even though it is said that the Eastern and Western Catholics a have “different theology,” it’s really just a different expression of theology based on Rite, culture and tradition. Meaning they believe the same things, but approach it differently. But we all profess believe in the same Dogma, Doctrine, Sacraments, Deposit of Faith, and recognize the special role of the Bishop of Rome. Hence, all parishes in communion with the Chair of Peter are all one large “denomination”
“Non-denominational” groups are really just single location denominations. Each “Non-denominational Church” is really it’s own denomination because the teachings on theology, dogma, doctrine, and Scared Tradition from each pastor can vastly differ from who they consider to be Christians, rapture, view on sin, baptism practices, view of history, qualifications of a pastor, etc.
Therefore, the number of denominations due to just the non-denominational and Baptists is quite high. Then, add in a few others which keep splitting into schism due to political differences and you can quickly reach 30,000.
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chataranga
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Thank you for your thoughts and insight on this subject. I didn’t think whether a church was a denomination or a single church would be as interesting or confusing as it is or at least seems to me to be as I read the posts. Thank you and blessings to all.
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Reuben_J
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Hi Phil. Good explanation which is my idea too.
A question: In reference to Phil’s post, can a Southern Baptist go to a Liberty Baptist church and consider it as his church. I mean, a Roman Catholic can go to an Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic) and worship there and it makes no difference to him (as far as his obligation requires). So would a Southern Baptist consider it the same in a Liberty Baptist church?
Sorry about that. It’s an honest question. I am a born Catholic and have very little contact with other Christian denominations, thus the question.
I would say a denomination will be one if it cannot freely inter-mix with another without having any theological and hierarchical differences. Example, Baptism is really a big deal in Christianity ranging from literal washing of sins to symbolic to do not believe in it at all. Any sect that chooses to believe in one of these would automatically become a denomination different from the one that chooses the other.
God bless.
Reuben
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aidanbradypop
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Liberty Baptist is Southern Baptist I believe so I assume they would feel fine.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks. That’s what I want to know. In my mind, if there is no theological and hierarchical differences, and each members respectively can go to any of the churches mentioned and it makes no difference to them, the churches therefore are not different denominations then.
God bless.
Reuben
Edit:
It is another matter if a member attending another church which is not recognized by his and thus attending it does not constitute fulfilling his obligation, then that has to be different denomination from his. Example, a Catholic may not attend any of Protestant churches and attending them is not considered as the same as attending a Catholic church.
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aidanbradypop
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Now if a Baptist(Arminian) attended TEC (Anglican) then that would be crossing denominations. IMO
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Contarini
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Most “believer’s baptism” traditions rebaptize those baptized as infants, because they don’t believe infant baptism is baptism. That would include Baptists, Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Anabaptists (like Mennonites), and many nondenominational churches. I believe that many Pentecostals would too, though you indicate that AoG wouldn’t and that fits the policy of many Wesleyan Holiness churches like the Nazarenes, which accept either practice in principle while mostly practicing believer’s baptism. It’s far, far more common than you realize.
Some Baptists actually rebaptize even people who have been baptized as believers, if they weren’t baptized in their church.
On the other hand, some of the more moderate/liberal folks from these traditions no longer rebaptize. But that, not rebaptism, is the exception in “believer’s baptism” traditions.
Well, I can’t stop you from using language any way you want, but more commonly “denomination” is used, at least by scholars, to mean an organization of like-minded local churches. If you have a separate, parallel organization, you are a separate denomination from other groups that may believe basically the same things (that’s why arguably the “sui juris” churches of Catholicism are analogous to denominations).
Many Protestant groups don’t like to call themselves denominations because they don’t have a hierarchy and because they were founded in reaction to existing denominations. By my definition the AoG is definitely a denomination.
No, they aren’t. FBs deny eternal security, which is one of the most important beliefs of most Southern Baptists. I attended an SB church for a while as a child where the pastor had been FB for a while, and he was still treated with a bit of suspicion by some because of his “heretical” background (they didn’t use that tone but they spoke of it darkly as if he had joined some really off-the-wall cult–like the Pentecostals
). That was why we liked him, since we were Wesleyan Arminians and thought he was more favorable to our way of thinking than the typical SB pastor.But even if the statements of faith are nearly the same, if there are separate organizations, then by the standard definition they are separate denominations.
“Baptist” and “Pentecostal” are usually referred to as “traditions.” They are broad groupings with many denominations and independent churches within them.
Edwin
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ajcstr
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AGREED
thank you for the clarification
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ltwin
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Contarini did a good job answering this post. I just wanted to add that a church (whether in a large or small building) can have a generic name, like “Church of God”, and still belong to a denomination.
In fact, there are dozens of denominations in the Pentecostal and Holiness church tradition that use “Church of God” or some variant as their denominational label.
Even more amazing, a church can belong to a Pentecostal or Baptist denomination and not mention that in the name! I always shake my head when someone offers a church that is a member of the Southern Baptist Convention as an example of “non-denominational Christianity” all because the church failed to add “Baptist” to its name.
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ltwin
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I could be wrong, but I am not aware of any separate “Liberty Baptist” group. Are you sure this wasn’t just a fundamentalist Baptist or other type of Baptist congregation named “Liberty.” “Liberty” is a fairly common name for local Baptist churches that wouldn’t necessarily imply a denominational loyalty.
It would depend on how similar the other Baptist church is to his home church. Some Baptist groups practice closed communion so that only members of that specific congregation can take communion. Other Baptists have less restrictive practices.
Baptist churches are interesting because they are congregational. Many historically Black Baptist churches affiliate with both the SBC and historically Black Baptist Conventions.
But as to “Sunday obligation,” Protestants wouldn’t think of it in those terms. Even as a Pentecostal Christian, if I visited a Baptist church one Sunday I would have considered myself having gone to church and worshiped God. Even if I did not agree with that Baptist church 100% I would still have considered myself having “not forsaken the assembly.”
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Erich
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Good tests of practical unity for Protestant congregations are: Whom do they let join? Whom do they let preach? Whom do they let pastor? In this particular example, would a Reformed Anglican congregation let itself be pastored by a Reformed Baptist (or vice versa)?
If a particular congregation, as a matter of policy, will not let an individual with a particular belief join its fellowship, preach from its pulpits, or serve as a pastor in one of its churches, then this belief is considered an essential for unity. When these tests are applied, one can see that there is a great deal of practical *disunity *among Protestants.
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aidanbradypop
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Can a Orthodox priest preside at Mass in the RCC?
Calvinism is Calvinism…Traditions may differ
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pablope
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Why do you think it is false? If you do not believe it is 33K, so what is the right number?
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