Amen to not generalizing. i have always said it is hard to quantify the effectual difference in a " 7 sacramental christian" and say a one or two sacramental christian.It is possible yes. But Catholics have access to graces and gifts that Protestants reject. So in that sense it is easier for a Catholic. Of course it comes down to the individual and his/her relationship with God. We cannot generalize.
Where would you get the idea that anyone believes that? I certainly don’t think of the means of grace that way.It is not an issue of “rejecting” Catholic means of Grace, but they are not believed to be “means of grace”.
Grace is not a commodity to be dispensed like a box of groceries from a food bank.
But hasn’t that been the wat God has set it up for us, since the beginning? The whole thing, from the earliest days of revelation, we tend to the needs of others as our ministry to God.Friend, I understand the belief…I am not able to get my mind around the need to engage in such rites and rituals that are performed for us or “to” us by another sinful mortal.
As a Friend I do not believe such rites and rituals have any efficacy by having them performed for us or participated in by us.
They are not “performed” at all, either for us or to us. They are in response to Christ’s call, command, instruction, institution.Friend, I understand the belief…I am not able to get my mind around the need to engage in such rites and rituals that are performed for us or “to” us by another sinful mortal.
As a Friend I do not believe such rites and rituals have any efficacy by having them performed for us or participated in by us. New Life is by Jesus and his work alone.
As someone who is of the Lutheran tradition, you’ll forgive me if I disagree. The logical conclusion Of the Reformation would not exclude the sacraments any more than it would exclude His word.I do understand the “unique” of my beliefs…it has been said that the Society if Friends is the logical conclusion of the Reformation. I believe that statement holds merit.
I don’t think anyone could see what you post as an attempt to minimize others ‘ beliefs.He is the Word, Joel saw his day in that his word and commandments would be written on our hearts and the only “church building” was made of flesh and bones.
**To all who read my posts, in no way do I wish to minimize your beliefs not deny how sacred you hold them…**I just want to explain it at least state mine simply and with the desire to understand and be understood.
Peace to you friends
I can understand this. However it is not our understanding that there are others “between” us & Christ, rather Christ working through us & others to be present in this world in yet another way (i.e. in addition to being present in the Eucharist, in addition to being present where two or three are gathered in his name)and this Life need no “other” to stand between us and Christ,
David_Catholic, I am reposting this since I didn’t see a response to it.John 3:5-7
“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot winter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit, is spirit. Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again”.
Christ said that water baptism is necessary for salvation. How does that square with your Protestant theology?
It is from the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, the Vatican’s primary organization for ecumenism.According to Catholic faith, the Catholic Church has been endowed with the whole of revealed truth and all the means of salvation as a gift which cannot be lost.Nevertheless, among the elements and gifts which belong to the Catholic Church (e.g.; the written Word of God, the life of grace, faith, hope and charity etc.) many can exist outside its visible limits. The Churches and ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation, for the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation. In ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or ecclesial Community, their celebrations are able to nourish the life of grace in their members who participate in them and provide access to the communion of salvation.
I continue to be perplexed why some separate the water of Baptism from the Spirit.I don’t read baptism into this passage. Jesus is contrasting natural birth with spiritual birth. Born of water(natural birth) Spiritual birth through the Holy Spirit.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#baptismBaptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
And Christ Himself instituted Baptism as a means of His grace. So you are right, no ritual or ordinance saves, but Grace does, grace that is communicated to us through word and sacrament, including baptism.No ritual or ordinance saves…as a Friend I see all" outward rituals and rites do not save. It is Christ and Christ alone.
And the baptism instituted by Christ is baptism of water and the Spirit.A man can enter the waters if baptism a dry sinner and exit a wet sinner, but NO ONE who experiences the “baptism of Spirit” can remain the same.