Christian Hadith?

[Trebor135]

Toward the very end of this article by a Christian apologist directed to one of his Islamic counterparts, Sam Shamoun quotes Shabir Ally as follows:

I do not believe, however, that so far James has succeeded in showing that I have committed this error, though I am well aware of his numerous attempts. In the Biola debate, for example, it turned out that the opposite phenomenon was at work. James would not want me to apply the same critical standards I use to evaluate Islam’s hadiths now to evaluate the Gospels [sic]. Using these critical standards we grade hadiths and pronounce them as either authentic or inauthentic words of the Prophet Muhammad. Naturally, I would want to apply similar standards to the Gospels to determine if the words attributed to Jesus therein are really his. James did not seem to welcome this approach to the Gospels. Of course, if I do apply these strict standards, the Gospels would all fail the test in a wholesale fashion, for they would lack a continuous trace of reliable reporters from Jesus to the writer of the Gospels.

Muslims consider to be a very strong point in favour of their religion the chains of transmission (isnad) which ostensibly trace statements all the way back to Muhammad and his companions. Christians cannot provide any such chains of transmission, so how do we show that the words of Christ, his apostles, and others as quoted in the New Testament are really theirs?

 

[GRATEFULONEjim]

The Catholic Church has Apostolic Tradition that is good enough for me. I have no reason to discount the words of the Apostles and therefore no reason to discount the content that is given to us as the written Word in the New Testament.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

We have teaching authority in the Catholic Church and certainly have no reason to feel scripturally inferior to Islam.

 

[philial]

But more than anything, we have the Holy Spirit, the truely infallible guide to our Scriptures, who is not even recognised by the Lesser Religion.

 

[mhmtas]

But more than anything, we have the Holy Spirit, the truely infallible guide to our Scriptures, who is not even recognised by the Lesser Religion.

                    HOLY SPİRİT” İN FACT İS……

     God has attributes and characters and each character of God is eternal and infinite. Exemlary force of God is infinite and can creat every thing. To do this it is not important that job is small or big because there is no level and degree in God’s force. Smilarly hearing of God is infinite and God can hear everything at once time. İt is not important that where or in which time the voices are in. And God can see every thing at once as timelessly and placelessly. As such all attributes of God are eternal and infinite. God is unique and entire with all his characters.

When God decide(decision and will of God) to do something than Force of God creat it according to Knowledge of God. İf that thing is alive than animating(attribute) of God vitalize. Hearing of God gives it ears and hearing. Sight of God gives seeing. Speak of God gives it tongue and talking(if can speak). Art(attribute) of God make it artistic and beatifull. Mercy and Grace of God creat countless benefaction and foods from bloodhless elements and atoms. And so …..

(A man may has differents attributes. Forexample: He is boss at work. A father and husband at home. A friend in society. Like this God has different attributes these make God an entire Godhead.)

An action in an atom or in an alive cell is not independent and apart from others and whole universe. Everything is related to each other with links and bands that is called Natural Laws. İf there were be more than one effect, impact and act( or God) than order and neatness of universe would not go on any more. 

    I think someone images God impact and effect in universes as another God ( as Holy Spirit). But if there were more than one God there would be a lot of debates, arguments between Gods. One God would say let do this in this way and other God would say no but in another way and so nothing would be done properly. Necessarily two or three God are to be considered than it is necesarry to think seperate three God with same divine. And that seems very tortuous. But it can be considered unique God but in different impact  and actions.

 

[MattofTexas]

First just be aware that the Christian apologist the article mentions is a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) Christian apologist who has written both books and articles about why the Catholic Church is in error. I’m guessing he disagrees with many aspects of Orthodoxy as well (such as veneration/intercession of the Theotokos and the saints, the importance of apostolic succession through the episcopate, etc.) So…by all means feel free to read him on “Mere Christianity” issues such as interfaith matters, but do so with discernment knowing that Dr. White disagrees with many aspects of the historic Christian faith.

Now many posters have commented on the Apostolic Tradition being a basis for believing in the reliability of the gospels, and indeed if we believe that Jesus spoke to the Apostles who spoke those same words on to the first bishops after them, who then faithfully passed on the true tradition then this would be a good chain of transmission. However when this is accecpted on a dogmatic basis (this is true because say so, and we have the authority to say so because it is true) this amounts to nothing more than a circular reasoning fallacy. Therefore there is a need for historical evidence for the historical reality of succession in the episcopate from the apostles and the consistency in teaching/tradition from the first bishops until today. I recommend Jimmy Akin’s The Fathers Know Best for this. That said there are actual reasons to believe the gospels are true apart from the teaching of the Church, here are some resources on the subject:

Dr. William Lane Craig(Protestant)
Dr. Craig Blomberg on Apologetics315(Protestant)
Tim McGrew Here, Here, Here, and Here (Protestant)
Apparent Gospel Contradictions with Dr. Michael Licona(Protestant)
Richard Bauckham(Protestant)
Catholic Answers Here and Here

There are many more resources out there beyond these.

 

[Trebor135]

First just be aware that the Christian apologist the article mentions is a Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) Christian apologist who has written both books and articles about why the Catholic Church is in error.

Don’t worry, I’m aware of that unfortunate fact–the guy’s now quoted me on his DividingLine program.

I’m guessing he disagrees with many aspects of Orthodoxy as well (such as veneration/intercession of the Theotokos and the saints, the importance of apostolic succession through the episcopate, etc.)

Indeed. O Virgin Mary Mother of God, pray for James White’s eyes to be opened!

So…by all means feel free to read him on “Mere Christianity” issues such as interfaith matters, but do so with discernment knowing that Dr. White disagrees with many aspects of the historic Christian faith.

That’s what I’ve been doing. There aren’t any Catholic or Orthodox apologists fighting against Islam, so we’ve got to turn to other sources for relevant material.

Now many posters have commented on the Apostolic Tradition being a basis for believing in the reliability of the gospels, and indeed if we believe that Jesus spoke to the Apostles who spoke those same words on to the first bishops after them, who then faithfully passed on the true tradition then this would be a good chain of transmission. However when this is accecpted on a dogmatic basis (this is true because say so, and we have the authority to say so because it is true) this amounts to nothing more than a circular reasoning fallacy. Therefore there is a need for historical evidence for the historical reality of succession in the episcopate from the apostles and the consistency in teaching/tradition from the first bishops until today.

Exactly.

I recommend Jimmy Akin’s The Fathers Know Best for this. That said there are actual reasons to believe the gospels are true apart from the teaching of the Church, here are some resources on the subject:

Dr. William Lane Craig(Protestant)
Dr. Craig Blomberg on Apologetics315(Protestant)
Tim McGrew Here, Here, Here, and Here (Protestant)
Apparent Gospel Contradictions with Dr. Michael Licona(Protestant)
Richard Bauckham(Protestant)
Catholic Answers Here and Here

There are many more resources out there beyond these.

I understand there are reasons to consider the New Testament as reliable, but do any of those sources provide the kind of information that Muslims are seeking and one asked me about a month or two ago?

 

[philial]

HOLY SPİRİT” İN FACT İS……

     God has attributes and characters and each character of God is eternal and infinite. Exemlary force of God is infinite and can creat every thing. To do this it is not important that job is small or big because there is no level and degree in God’s force. Smilarly hearing of God is infinite and God can hear everything at once time. İt is not important that where or in which time the voices are in. And God can see every thing at once as timelessly and placelessly. As such all attributes of God are eternal and infinite. God is unique and entire with all his characters.

When God decide(decision and will of God) to do something than Force of God creat it according to Knowledge of God. İf that thing is alive than animating(attribute) of God vitalize. Hearing of God gives it ears and hearing. Sight of God gives seeing. Speak of God gives it tongue and talking(if can speak). Art(attribute) of God make it artistic and beatifull. Mercy and Grace of God creat countless benefaction and foods from bloodhless elements and atoms. And so …..

(A man may has differents attributes. Forexample: He is boss at work. A father and husband at home. A friend in society. Like this God has different attributes these make God an entire Godhead.)

An action in an atom or in an alive cell is not independent and apart from others and whole universe. Everything is related to each other with links and bands that is called Natural Laws. İf there were be more than one effect, impact and act( or God) than order and neatness of universe would not go on any more. 

    I think someone images God impact and effect in universes as another God ( as Holy Spirit). But if there were more than one God there would be a lot of debates, arguments between Gods. One God would say let do this in this way and other God would say no but in another way and so nothing would be done properly. Necessarily two or three God are to be considered than it is necesarry to think seperate three God with same divine. And that seems very tortuous. But it can be considered unique God but in different impact  and actions.

??? Not sure what this has to do with the Holy Spirit, except that Mohammed completely failed to appreciate the Christian Theology of the Holy Trinity, thinking it was about 3 separate entities instead of 3 dynamics of the One God. This is why we can be sure Islam is false, for had it truely been of Divine origin, no such misunderstanding would have been possible!

 

[MattofTexas]

St. Polycarp was a disciple of St. John who was a disciple of The Lord? Is that the sort of thing they’re looking for? Therefore if Polycarp’s writings refer to or parrelle the NT then the NT is reliable?

 

[SavedByTheCross]

I understand there are reasons to consider the New Testament as reliable, but do any of those sources provide the kind of information that Muslims are seeking and one asked me about a month or two ago?

I know this is not what you asked for, but the collection of hadith in Islam did not take place until a couple hundred years after Muhammad’s death. The founder of Islam and first few generations after did not consider it important to document or prove whether a hadith was authentic. In fact, at the beginning of his “prophethood” Muhammad forbade people from even writing down his sayings, because he did not want them confused with the Quran (which he did order to be written down). This definitely shows a certain degree of trust in oral tradition and its reliability in transmitting a collection of teachings. Conversely, the Gospels were written within decades of the events described, which means they were either written during the generation of Jesus’s “sahaba” (companions) or the “tabieen” (the next generation, taught by the sahaba). There is a greater element of reliability because of shorter time frame. Part of the reason for developing the concept of isnad and the science of hadith was because the people relating the traditions were long since dead, and there had to be some way of showing how a tradition at that time could be reliably traced back to a person who had lived some 200 years prior. The authenticity of most ahadith comes from the fact that the traditions were so widespread that it would be impossible for that many people to have made up the same story. Again, this shows the reliability of oral tradition, especially when it is accompanied by a widespread consensus (present in NT and other early Church writings). And, again, this was written down within the first century of Christianity, while the eye witnesses or students of the eye witnesses were alive and able to verify (or speak out if a false tradition was started).

Also, a hadith to support this view:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8.hadith number 436:
Narrated Zahdam bin Mudarrib: Imran bin Husain said: The Prophet said, "The best people are my contemporaries (i.e., the present (my) generation) and then those who come after them (i.e., the next generation)." Imran added: I am not sure whether the Prophet repeated the statement twice after his first saying. The Prophet added, “And after them there will come people who will bear witness, though they will not be asked to give their witness; and they will be treacherous and nobody will trust them, and they will make vows, but will not fulfill them, and fatness will appear among them.”